MBB: Landmark Conference

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Well if you didn't have high hopes... I am a little confused how they had a reality check than at Scranton yesterday... I don't see any "facts" that back up anything you said. Apparently I made the mistake for falling for your trolling efforts. Lesson learned.

As for Scranton... my opinions were made before they made a hire and I have talked extensively about them. You are welcome to continue grinding your ax, but it isn't going to get you any place - it certainly isn't going to get me to change what I said six months ago since I said it six months ago. I thought then, and I currently think, they handled it poorly. I think they have been saved by bringing in Dave Martin who brought in, kind of, Trevor Woodruff. If you have read the boards, you will see I have stated this often - even stated it on Hoopsville. That decision doesn't change how I felt it was working out at the beginning - or middle. And while I know Trevor is working hard at recruiting, I do worry they will have a bit of a lull. Nothing I have said have I shied away with. Furthermore, I have talked about it in the women's chat. So if you want to grind that ax over there, be my guest...

[CardsFan]

So now that we're entering the final week of the season, does anyone have any thoughts on Coach of the Year? Up until a few weeks ago I would have safely bet on Curley (Juniata) or Keckler (Drew). Both were in much better position for the conference tournament then and both were looking to make real improvements from their records last year. No team has vastly outperformed where they were picked in the pre-season in terms of league position.

Drew could still finish a game better than last season and the league is much deeper this season than last. Also, Drew is down two starters from last season and they did have some injury problems earlier this season.

Or maybe Coach Marcinek is the obvious choice.

[ronk]

So now that we're entering the final week of the season, does anyone have any thoughts on Coach of the Year? Up until a few weeks ago I would have safely bet on Curley (Juniata) or Keckler (Drew). Both were in much better position for the conference tournament then and both were looking to make real improvements from their records last year. No team has vastly outperformed where they were picked in the pre-season in terms of league position.

Drew could still finish a game better than last season and the league is much deeper this season than last. Also, Drew is down two starters from last season and they did have some injury problems earlier this season.

Or maybe Coach Marcinek is the obvious choice.

I agree, so let's see how it plays out from here. Is there any frosh who has stood out? It's been a relatively underwhelming class.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I like Coach Marcinek despite the fact they are positioned about where everyone thought they would finish. They have been the story of this conference this year. I will admit, I didn't think ultimately they would actually finish second... and to be undefeated and leading for so long is very impressive.

As for a freshman, I was hoping Goucher's Mychal Stefanides might surprise and impress, but it doesn't seem he can keep consistent. No surprise to be honest, but maybe he has been better on the road than I realize. Otherwise, I haven't seen a freshman jump off the table to me. Granted, I have two teams yet to see and will see this week.

[CardsFan]

For freshman, the only candidates I can see are Oneil Holder, Jimmy Murray (both Moravian), and Brandon Martinazzi (Juniata). I'm pretty sure they're the only freshman who are averaging at least 10 ppg. in league play.

Holder (my choice): 14.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 51.6% FG in conference play. He had a big game in Catholic's first meeting with Moravian (20 pts, 10 reb). Catholic did better with him in the 2nd meeting, but he seems like he could end up being a really good player.

Murray: 14.9 ppg, 36.4% 3pt FG in conference play. He and Holder have both started every game they've played in for Moravian. Best FT shooter in the league and it isn't close (43-45).

Martinazzi: 10.1 ppg, 46.8% 3pt FG in conference play. Doesn't start, but plays 20 minutes a game.

I think this freshman class seems underwhelming because none of the top teams have freshmen really standing out. Moravian has been around the bottom all year, but 3 of their top 4 scorers are freshmen.

[ronk]

For freshman, the only candidates I can see are Oneil Holder, Jimmy Murray (both Moravian), and Brandon Martinazzi (Juniata). I'm pretty sure they're the only freshman who are averaging at least 10 ppg. in league play.

Holder (my choice): 14.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 51.6% FG in conference play. He had a big game in Catholic's first meeting with Moravian (20 pts, 10 reb). Catholic did better with him in the 2nd meeting, but he seems like he could end up being a really good player.

Murray: 14.9 ppg, 36.4% 3pt FG in conference play. He and Holder have both started every game they've played in for Moravian. Best FT shooter in the league and it isn't close (43-45).

Martinazzi: 10.1 ppg, 46.8% 3pt FG in conference play. Doesn't start, but plays 20 minutes a game.

I think this freshman class seems underwhelming because none of the top teams have freshmen really standing out. Moravian has been around the bottom all year, but 3 of their top 4 scorers are freshmen.

Again, I agree with your choices and, for the 1st Catholic-Scranton game only, Andre Mitchell played that well. Scranton has a frosh that, by his high school video, looked like he was going to have an impact but he hasn't played 10 mins for the whole season.
  Without a good class each year, the conference will be sliding back relative to D3 as a whole. There's probably more than 1 NESCAC team with a better frosh class than the whole Landmark class. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Not to be mean, but I am not sure the Landmark can slide back much further without sliding into a not-so-nice level of D3. They are in the middle of the middle group, I would think. I just can't get impressed with this conference on the whole. Maybe I am just too tired right now (just getting off the air), but this conference hasn't really lived up to the expectations when it was formed.

[NEPAFAN]

Not to be mean, but I am not sure the Landmark can slide back much further without sliding into a not-so-nice level of D3. They are in the middle of the middle group, I would think. I just can't get impressed with this conference on the whole. Maybe I am just too tired right now (just getting off the air), but this conference hasn't really lived up to the expectations when it was formed.

Out of conference record has the landmark as the strongest conference in the mid Atlantic. Not sure what or who you are dissapointed with.

[CardsFan]

For freshman, the only candidates I can see are Oneil Holder, Jimmy Murray (both Moravian), and Brandon Martinazzi (Juniata). I'm pretty sure they're the only freshman who are averaging at least 10 ppg. in league play.

Holder (my choice): 14.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 51.6% FG in conference play. He had a big game in Catholic's first meeting with Moravian (20 pts, 10 reb). Catholic did better with him in the 2nd meeting, but he seems like he could end up being a really good player.

Murray: 14.9 ppg, 36.4% 3pt FG in conference play. He and Holder have both started every game they've played in for Moravian. Best FT shooter in the league and it isn't close (43-45).

Martinazzi: 10.1 ppg, 46.8% 3pt FG in conference play. Doesn't start, but plays 20 minutes a game.

I think this freshman class seems underwhelming because none of the top teams have freshmen really standing out. Moravian has been around the bottom all year, but 3 of their top 4 scorers are freshmen.

Again, I agree with your choices and, for the 1st Catholic-Scranton game only, Andre Mitchell played that well. Scranton has a frosh that, by his high school video, looked like he was going to have an impact but he hasn't played 10 mins for the whole season.
  Without a good class each year, the conference will be sliding back relative to D3 as a whole. There's probably more than 1 NESCAC team with a better frosh class than the whole Landmark class.

I believe Mitchell will become a good player, but that will depend on how much shooting work he does in the offseason, because his outside shot needs a lot of work. But I do like him quite a bit. Catholic has another freshman that has hardly played at all this season that I've heard the coaching staff is very high on. Of course, if that is true I don't know why he's being kept in mothballs this season. There are other guys on Catholics bench who I'm convinced could be pretty good, but they never get a chance and some will probably leave in the offseason.

[CardsFan]

Not to be mean, but I am not sure the Landmark can slide back much further without sliding into a not-so-nice level of D3. They are in the middle of the middle group, I would think. I just can't get impressed with this conference on the whole. Maybe I am just too tired right now (just getting off the air), but this conference hasn't really lived up to the expectations when it was formed.

If I wanted to be pessimistic about the league, I could point out the firepower the league is losing this season:
Brendan Boken: 1,810 career points (will leave as the league's career scoring leader. Catholic's Jason Banzhaf is the current leader with 1,822 career points)

Mike Klinger: 1,611 career points

Bryson Fonville: 1,532 career points

Brandon Hedley: 1,407 career points

What the league was supposed to be I'll leave to people who are associated with the schools and within Division III. Were consistent deep NCAA Tournament runs expected? I don't see many teams in the league set up for that kind of year in-year out contention.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Not to be mean, but I am not sure the Landmark can slide back much further without sliding into a not-so-nice level of D3. They are in the middle of the middle group, I would think. I just can't get impressed with this conference on the whole. Maybe I am just too tired right now (just getting off the air), but this conference hasn't really lived up to the expectations when it was formed.

Out of conference record has the landmark as the strongest conference in the mid Atlantic. Not sure what or who you are dissapointed with.

Could you source that?

Out of conference record straight up is a nice thing to look at, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

The Landmark out of conference record is: 49-29 (.628)

But that doesn't come close to telling the entire story. Here is the entire out-of-conference breakdown of the entire conference:


   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Team	Wins	Record	Losses	Record
Susquehanna	Misericordia PSU-Wilkes Barre King's Lycoming PSU-Harrisburg Trinity (Conn.) Apprentice School Johns Hopkins Albright	13 - 10 9 - 12 11 - 12 16 - 8 12 - 11 18 - 6 11 - 9 11 - 11 10 - 14	- none -
	(9)	111 - 204 (.352)	(0)
Catholic	Neumann La Roche Wesley St. Vincent Dickinson Waynesburg Williams	17 - 6 10 - 13 8 - 15 17 - 6 11 - 12 9 - 13 15 - 9	Marietta Washington and Lee	21 - 2 10 - 13
	(7)	87 - 74 (.540)	(2)	31 - 15 (.674)
Scranton	Bryn Athyn Ursinus Ithaca King's Wilkes Stevenson Christopher Newport	5 - 18 10 - 11 13 - 10 11 - 12 11 - 12 9 - 14 22 - 1	Hobart	10 - 13
	(7)	81 - 78 (.509)	(1)	10 - 13 (.435)
Juniata	Allegheny Cazenovia PSU-Altoona Washington & Jefferson Marymount PSU-York Pitt-Bradford	3 - 20 10 - 12 7 - 14 1 - 22 10 - 13 11 - 11 9 - 14	Randolph Eastern	13 - 10 11 - 12
	(7)	51 - 106 (.325)	(2)	24 - 22 (.522)
Drew	SUNY Potsdam Wilkes Mount Aloysius	1 - 21 11 - 12 6 - 17	William Paterson Stevens King's FDU-Florham Rutgers-Newark Widener	12 - 12 10 - 12 11 - 12 5 - 18 18 - 6 12 - 11
	(3)	18 - 52 (.257)	(6)	68 - 71 (.489)
Merchant Marine	SUNY-Maritime Maine Maritime John Jay Hunter Trinity (Conn.)	7 - 16 4 - 19 3 - 22 3 - 21 18 - 6	Stony Brook Coast Guard CCNY Rutgers-Camden	22 - 4 10 - 12 12 - 11 3 - 21
	(5)	35 - 84 (.294)	(4)	47 - 48 (.495)
Goucher	RIT Stevenson PSU-Kensington Hood	11 - 11 9 - 14 7 - 15 12 - 11	Case Western Reserve Navy Mount Aloysius Lynchburg Gallaudet	10 - 12 18 - 9 6 - 17 17 - 6 14 - 6
	(4)	39 - 51 (.433)	(5)	65 - 50 (.565)
Moravian	SUNY-Old Westbury Lebanon Valley Haverford PSU-Lehigh Valley John Jay	15 - 7 14 - 9 4 - 18 2 - 18 3 - 22	Centenary (N.J.) NYU DeSales	11 - 10 18 - 4 17 - 6
	(5)	38 - 74 (.339)	(3)	46 - 20 (.697)
Elizabethtown	Wilkes Franciscan	11 - 12 1 - 21	Franklin & Marshall Manhattanville Lancaster Bible Washington College William Peace Delaware Valley	18 - 4 13 - 10 22 - 0 3 - 20 9 - 14 17 - 6
	(2)	12 - 33 (.267)	(6)	82 - 54 (.603)

Just take a look at most of those records:
The conference record against the teams they beat: 433-756 (.364)
The conference record against the teams they lost: 373-293 (.560)
The overall record of their opponents: 806-1,049 (.435)

So they were 49-29 against a .425 schedule.

But it also gets weird, the conference is worse when you remove the non-Division III opponents! The conference was 44-27 (.620) against only Division III opponents.

It gets crazier, the conference record against ONLY Division III opponents they beat: 393-391 (.501) - a major increase (when the conference won non-D3 games, they beat really bad teams).
The conference record against ONLY Division III opponents they lost: 42-41 (.506) - a major decrease (the non-D3 schools they lost to were all really good - like pay-to-play games like Goucher at Navy).
The overall conference record against ONLY Division III opponents: 435-432 (.502) - also an increase, but because the dead-weight non-D3 games are removed.

Ironically, the overall numbers allow the Landmark to have a gaudy out-of-conference record and Massey likes them 20th, but when you stick to just Division III, it isn't gaudy and I bet Massey wouldn't rank them as high (though, hard to determine that since Massey can't stick to just Division III in the formula).

I am not sure what the rest of the Region has, but this isn't something to write home about. They have maybe two or three significant wins on that ENTIRE resume (Christopher Newport and Trinity).

But lastly, because it was brought up which I was going to do anyway, the conference hasn't exactly shown up when the light it he brightest. We can go round and round about NCAA Tournament play, but outside of one year which included a few breaks, this conference hasn't performed when it mattered the most. There is no consistency in season or in the NCAA tournament. The out-of-conference schedule leaves something to be desired despite the record

[ronk]

Susquehanna's opponent record is 111-93, not 111-204; there were 204 total games, not losses; your major point still stands, though.

[CardsFan]

I want to talk about conference performance. These are the overall records of each team in Landmark play since 2007-08 (results through 2/13/16):

Scranton: 100-29 (.775); won at least 10 league games in every season
Catholic: 83-44 (.654); finished at least .500 in conference 8 times
Susquehanna: 80-47 (.630); finished at least .500 in conference 8 times
USMMA: 69-58 (.543); finished at least .500 in conference 6 times
Juniata: 61-67 (.477); finished at least .500 in conference 3 times
Moravian: 46-82 (.359); finished at least .500 in conference 2 times
Drew: 46-83 (.357); finished at least .500 in conference 1 time
Goucher: 35-93 (.273); no seasons of at least .500 in conference
E-Town: 7-22 (.241); no seasons of at least .500 in conference

Only 4 teams have a winning conference record and 1 of them is leaving after this season. Moravian, Drew, Goucher, and E-Town are consistently at the bottom of the league. Juniata is solidly in the middle. Catholic and Susquehanna can't separate from each other to decide which team is 2nd best, much less make up ground on Scranton, who is well ahead of everyone.   

In terms of out-of-conference scheduling leaving a lot to be desired, I think that should be evaluated case-by-case. What incentive is there for some of these schools to go out and schedule tough? Not to be indelicate, but it seems plainly obvious that a decent percentage of teams in the conference aren't capable (lack of resources or other factors) of contending for NCAA Tournament berths year-to-year. Could the top teams do a better job in the non-conference? Most likely.

In terms of the NCAA Tournament results, Scranton fans can speak to which seasons they should've gone further and which seasons they went as far as they could. From a CUA point of view, the team went as far as it could in both 2012-13 and 2014-15. This is no longer a program that can realistically be looking to deep tournament runs as the measuring stick for success year-to-year. Just making the tournament is pretty good these days. MMA and Moravian each had an outlier season that got them to the tournament.

My overall point is that I think the league has been pretty consistent in how it performs year-to-year. From an outside perspective, it seems no school has any real issues with results in NCAA Tournament play.

[NEPAFAN]

Posted by Hopefan in the D3 vs D1/D2.etc thread on 27 January. On paper looks good to me....subjectively when is the last time the MAC Freedom or Commonwealth got two teams in the dance?  I am not sure how the Landmark has under performed....


D3 vs D3 Non Conference.....  remember, I include the 4 Independent D3 provisionals as non D3 so as not to skew the results here

1   NESCAC      95   34   0.736
2   UAA      59   25   0.702
3   MIAC      35   17   0.673
4   NCAC      40   20   0.667
5   CCIW      55   30   0.647
6   Landmark      43   25   0.632
7   NWC      36   21   0.632
8   SUNY      41   24   0.631
9   USAC      54   35   0.607
10   OAC      38   25   0.603
11   ODAC      59   40   0.596
12   WIAC      46   32   0.590
13   CAC      38   28   0.576
14   Newmac      46   34   0.575
15   SCAC      43   33   0.566
16   LEC      46   36   0.561
17   MACF      43   35   0.551
18   NACC      26   22   0.542
19   MIAA      36   31   0.537
20   MACC      41   36   0.532
21   NJAC      34   30   0.531
22   IIAC      35   32   0.522
23   CC      34   33   0.507
24   E8      37   39   0.487
25   MWC      22   24   0.478
26   SCIAC      22   24   0.478
27   ASC      47   54   0.465
28   CCC      31   37   0.456
29   CUNY      34   41   0.453
30   LL      33   40   0.452
31   Mascac      36   48   0.429
32   GNAC      27   37   0.422
33   Independents      34   55   0.382
34   SAA      30   51   0.370
35   AMCC      19   38   0.333
36   HCAC      18   38   0.321
37   UMAC      18   38   0.321
38   NECC      22   47   0.319
39   NAC      20   43   0.317
40   Sky      14   34   0.292
41   CSAC      17   43   0.283
42   PrAC      16   45   0.262
43   SLIAC      11   36   0.234
44   NEAC      16   57   0.219

[sp0rtsfan]

 I hope all in attendance at the Long Center enjoyed the commemorative celebration of the '76 Royals like I did on Saturday... Here's a  special shout-out and thanks to JK, aka Kel-Bo, who was  behind the scenes getting the old guard together....Even half of the Brooklyn zoo, Gopher, was there. Too bad the other half, "Pigeon", didn't make it.