MBB: Landmark Conference

[Greek Tragedy]

I like to watch.

[saratoga]

NEPA:

Probably.

I knew JP a little back then, he was one of their best players, and he had been assisting Bess for 5 or 6 years.

Seemed like a logical next step at the time to me.

Enter a new AD & the rest, as they say, is history.

On another topic:

Dmac: Any truth that Goucher may be looking at "other" conference options in the near future?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

If anyone has listened to me, you would have heard me talk about wondering if my alma mater needs to look for a different option. I know conference(s) have contacted Goucher, but I don't think that is out of the norm in general. That happens FAR more often for all schools than people realize.

The problem, which I have stated here a few times, is higher administration at Goucher hasn't either supported athletics or recognized it as an important part of the campus/college in a LONG time. As a result, budgets get tighter, resources smaller, and coaches asked to do more than just the basics (being general here for simplicity). The department is then asked to succeed with less and less.

When Goucher entered the Landmark, sports like lacrosse were juggernauts. I was specifically told the reason for the move was because the Landmark would help Goucher in sports like men's lacrosse (where it is tough to get out from behind Salisbury and SMC at the time) and others. (To be clear, I didn't buy it then and didn't like it.) But in a few years, it became a moot point. It was almost like administration started feeling that since the school was no longer in the CAC, cuts could be made or at least the bar lowered and the results would be the same ... that's my thinking to be clear. The 18-19 academic year was pitiful for the department. Around 10 conference wins in ALL sports combined.

My point being ... I wouldn't think it a bad thing if Goucher went to another conference. At the very least until administration decided to finally treat athletics a bit more like they did in the 1990s and early 2000s and realize the benefit of that investment. For as diverse a school as Goucher, it blows me away with how they can't figure it out in terms of getting athletics competitive again.

Changing conferences would at least give student-athletes a fighting chance at conference championships and NCAA tournament berths at least once in their tenure. Currently, it is more like once in a blue moon. What kind of experience is that for student-athletes? I know most coaches (I can't speak for all) are working their tails off trying to recruit and improve their programs. I have seen the differences, but recruits aren't dumb. They know where they will be in the fight and where they won't be more times than not. Not all were like me (at the time) and just enjoyed the idea of playing. To really improve you have to bring in players who want to win and to get those you have to prove winning is achievable.

Being in the Landmark isn't proving to be winnable for Goucher - and the Landmark is a very winnable conference in most, if not all, sports.

The argument I have received in return is "imagine how special it would be to prove we can win in the Landmark." I don't disagree with this sentiment. It would be special, especially with all the internal challenges, but is a once in a while championship (outside of men's tennis apparently) that proves people wrong from a hot minute better than winning more often and getting Goucher's name at least somewhat in the headlines with more NCAA tournament berths?

So change to a conference that will still be competitive (don't go to the bottom of the barrel), but also allows Goucher to win. It is the opposite than my thinking when the school left the CAC - but that ship has sailed. I would rather be in a CAC situation where you have to make an effort (i.e. administration can't pretend that cutting the budget or barely giving support will work because they KNOW it would be detrimental) and the conference and the competition by default makes one better. At least Goucher was more competitive at that time than they are now. But again, that ship has sailed and now you have to consider the current situation and adjust.

From what I have learned, I think a lot of coaches would be on board (and again, for different reasons than leaving the CAC), but administration isn't ... the idea of proving you can win in the Landmark occasionally still drives the thinking.

So there is a long answer to the question ... is Goucher looking around. I know they have had overtures, but last I checked they have been rebuffed. However, I know the topic has been and will continue to be discussed ... but in this day in age, that is also nothing new.

[saratoga]

Thanks Dave.

An overview easy to understand.

The one point I'd be concerned about though...if the Administration at Goucher knew back in the CAC days that they couldn't be successful running an athletic department on the cheap, what in heavens name drives them to that finding these days?

I mean at some point there has to be an serious internal review that will guide the department into the foreseeable future otherwise, programs will begin to fade away on their own

Unless, of course.......

[NEPAFAN]

NEPA:

Probably.

I knew JP a little back then, he was one of their best players, and he had been assisting Bess for 5 or 6 years.

Seemed like a logical next step at the time to me.

Enter a new AD & the rest, as they say, is history.

On another topic:

Dmac: Any truth that Goucher may be looking at "other" conference options in the near future?

Okay, that is fair. 1 May...anyone who is going to play hoops at the U has to make their decision by today. Transfer Window still open... 

[ronk]

NEPA:

Probably.

I knew JP a little back then, he was one of their best players, and he had been assisting Bess for 5 or 6 years.

Seemed like a logical next step at the time to me.

Enter a new AD & the rest, as they say, is history.

On another topic:

Dmac: Any truth that Goucher may be looking at "other" conference options in the near future?

Okay, that is fair. 1 May...anyone who is going to play hoops at the U has to make their decision by today. Transfer Window still open... 

Not likely to be enforced this extremely unusual year due to covid-19;schools will be competing to fill their class with applicants being forced to sit out the year financially; admissions' code of ethics has been reduced by Justice to the degree that there will be still be competition for admitted students and even potential xfers from previous classes.

[saratoga]

Ronk:

I've currently misplaced my Buster Brown decoder...any chance you can translate that last one? 

[ronk]

Ronk:

I've currently misplaced my Buster Brown decoder...any chance you can translate that last one? 

I got it from the following newspaper article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/desperate-for-fall-enrollment-colleges-are-luring-students-with-campus-perks-and-cold-cash/2020/04/22/b6452686-8

[Tim the Enchanter]

I actually was president of the Pennsylvania Association for College Admission Counseling when the Department of Justice began investigating admissions profession's national Code of Ethics & Professional Practices (CEPP).  Basically, the DoJ believed that portions of  the CEPP violated anti-trust law and restricted competition.  As part of the agreement that the national association entered into, they eliminated three sections of the CEPP, including the restriction on knowingly recruiting students who had committed to another college.

Thus, while May 1 remains the National Candidate's reply deadline (the date by which students must notify colleges of their intent to enroll), colleges can now continue to recruit potential freshman after that point.  Similarly, colleges used to not be able to initiate contact with students at other colleges to entice transferring (students had to initiate that process); now colleges can.

This year, given the COVID-19 situation with colleges going to remote learning, the opportunities for students to visit in person was eliminated.  So high school students have been having difficulty making the most informed decision.  Recognizing that, many colleges have opted to push the enrollment deposit deadline back to June 1 or even later.   

As Ronk noted, many families' financial situations have changed, which is making enrollment this fall difficult.  Other students may not want to start in college right away since there is a strong likelihood that classes will start out remote in the fall.  Rather than do that, they would defer their enrollment until they are able to start up in person.  This is wreaking havoc on college's enrollment predictive modeling, and may require them to go deeper into their waitlist.  And given later enrollment deadlines, this could drag the process of enrolling their class deeper into the summer than usual. 

And if that weren't enough, if students do defer, that could mean fewer spots available for next year's freshmen (the current juniors). Or, going in the completely opposite direction:  colleges could severely under-enroll this fall and that would open up MORE spots for next year.  So both the class of 2020 and the class of 2021 are very anxious right now! 

Needless to say, this is a very complicated scenario, and this could have wide-ranging impact on colleges.  Many colleges who were already operating on razor-thin margins and were in danger of closing, could see an acceleration of their financial woes.  I've seen projections where as many as 20% of colleges may be forced to close in the aftermath of COVID-19.  I think that's a little high, and many colleges who might otherwise close will be able to act nimbly enough to keep their doors open.  At least I hope so, because the bulk of colleges affected will likely be the small, DIII colleges.

[ronk]

 Tim,
   I couldn't have said it better myself and, as evidenced by Saratoga's query, I evidently didn't.   
thanks

[amh63]

Have wander into the Landmark board because of ronk....and am not interested on the topics being discussed on the Nescac boards.  Anyway, Tim the Enchanter's post followed by ronk's post wrt to a Wash Post's article caught my interest.  The WSJ today also had an article wrt to the impact of Con19 on higher education, admissions, etc.  Many schools may have to close due to financial reasons...Fall sports maybe delayed/dropped, etc.  May 1 has arrived and schools are pushing for admitted students to commit....admitted students may delay going to college until a full residential/sports filled college life becomes available, etc. 
Nescac schools' websites are providing "virtual lures"...my phrasing...to get students to commit/make deposits.  Seems College Fall openings is being put on hold by the pandemic.

[saratoga]

Tim:

Thank you.

I've read that there are several small schools in Upstate NY that were walking a very perilous line of survival prior to the Covid-19 outbreak, now their fate may be sealed.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Tim:

Thank you.

I've read that there are several small schools in Upstate NY that were walking a very perilous line of survival prior to the Covid-19 outbreak, now their fate may be sealed.

Wells College has been walking a tight rope for several years ... they are one of several I'm watching. And some of this may not be truly felt until a year from now. I suspect we will get two more "waves" of closures: later this summer as enrollment dates pushed later into the year due to C19 will come and go and schools will see the reality; a year from now when a year has gone and now mounting bills (which may have been taken care of already this academic year) start to come due.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Thanks Dave.

An overview easy to understand.

The one point I'd be concerned about though...if the Administration at Goucher knew back in the CAC days that they couldn't be successful running an athletic department on the cheap, what in heavens name drives them to that finding these days?

I mean at some point there has to be an serious internal review that will guide the department into the foreseeable future otherwise, programs will begin to fade away on their own

Unless, of course.......

The higher administration in terms of the CAC ... I'm not sure their thinking. I just know this: there was a far bigger budget during the CAC and early Landmark days than there is now. There have been costing cutting upon cost cutting of the department for several years going now (which makes me wonder how much longer they will keep paying for me; so far so good, but ...).

I think the new administration is just piling on ... the real problem is there are parts of the campus, or professors and others in particular, who still have FAR too much say on campus ... and having athletics on campus is "beneath them." While that voice remains, it may be impossible for any administration to finally give athletics a chance. I see that in the presidents hired by Goucher - despite former athletes serving on the Board - the sway particular areas have, for reasons I am not of understanding, will continue to keep athletics in check.

What those areas don't realize is they can't have their cake and eat it, too. They want to pretend that the only way to have a high-education school of the way they like is to not have athletics ... while ignoring the very simple fact that to achieve the levels they speak of they only have to look at NESCACs and others and see athletics as a major part of the curriculum and experience. And if they keep hurting athletics, there will be less students and their paychecks and departments will be directly impacted.

When I was a student, athletes made up about 30% of the student body (I believe). That number is now south of 18%. Teams, for the most part, are smaller than they used to be ... especially ones like lacrosse, track & field, and others that should be large and supply a boost to enrollment and other things.

I wish more common sense was at play and the understanding that successful athletics can exist in harmony with higher-education. There are a number of schools that do it very well and Goucher could be killing it in all rhealms (especially considering their location) if they would just get their head's out of their asses.

To be clear, I am NOT talking about the athletic department for the most part ... but others on campus. I used to joke, there is a reason athletics is on the outside loop of the campus. Until recently, basically only maintenance and such were also outside the campus loop.

[jmcozenlaw]

From today's Wall Street Journal today:

Many students said they do not want to make a decision about the fall until they know for sure whether campuses will reopen. Johnny Kennevan, a senior at Seneca High School in Tabernacle, N.J., was recruited to play basketball at York College in Pennsylvania. But his plans would likely change if the campus is still closed, he said.

"It doesn't make sense to pay 20 grand to sit at my computer at home and take online courses," he said. "You can get the same education from a community college".

Some schools are waving deposit requirements, particularly for foreign students, who are especially valuable to universities because most pay full tuition. And experts say that the number of wait-listed students who are now getting offers, shows that even some of the most selective schools are acting more aggressively to fill freshman classes.

"People are coming off wait lists all over the place right now," said Debra Felix, a former admissions director at Columbia University who now runs her own student advising service. "It tells me that the yes's are coming back very slowly, or people are getting back to them quickly with no's."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) How many Johnny Kennevan's are out there?

(2) How many schools will not be around in 12 - 24 months?

(3) York 'packages' very well. 20 grand all-in for a $70K+/year college? Money talks..................and can show in the results on the court/field.