MBB: Landmark Conference

[cugrad]

Who is to say that the Mid-Atlantic is weaker or stronger than any other region.  Most schools rarely play outside the region.  How can you compare with that being the case?  How many of those tournament champions traveling to second place venues have 25 wins along with regular season/tournament championships? With #8 playing #9, home court is crucial! 

My qustion is how many teams with regular season/tournament championships, along with 25 wins have had to travel in the second round?

Another question is why would Catholic and Williams be matched up in the second round?  Is it because of proximity?  Probably not!

It seems that Williams gets the home court because of Amherst's success.

[Matt Letourneau]

Yes but they (Jun. and MMA) aren't regionally ranked and that's what he's talking about.

For the record, I have Catholic at 4-2 vs regionally ranked teams, and Williams at 4-4.   To me that should be mean that Catholic should win that "criteria" but I am not the NCAA.  Apparently those extra 2 regional losses for Williams give them the edge and thus home court.   

And yes, Grad, these teams should not be meeting in the second round.  I'm sure they would agree with that as well. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I am not dissing them... this is an SOS argument...

In region records at the end of the regular season when the SOS numbers would have been done:
For Williams: Amherst 25-2 and Middlebury 20-3
For Catholic: Merchant Marine 13-11 and Juniata 20-9

The SOS for Williams would have gotten stronger because their final two games were against opponents with 45-5 records versus Catholic which had a combined 33-20 record.

A D3boards.com poster, KnightSlappy, who does a lot of the raw data math has Williams with a final SOS of .577 and CUA at .531... that is .046 - significant distance between the two. He even predicted CUA would finish #3 in the region behind SMC who had a better SOS number than CUA and beat them head-to-head.

Again... not dissing Juniata and Merchant Marine who are good teams... this is a numbers argument and their records didn't help boost CUA's to get past Williams which got a significant boost in the final week with the teams they played.

And Williams is getting home court because they also only lost four games this season with a very good SOS. And the Mid-Atlantic is not as good as the Northeast... I hate to tell you. The Northeast got more at-large bids (the Mid-Atlantic got one) because there are better teams playing better opponents. The bottom of the Landmark was certainly much improved, but when the SOS is tied into OWP and OOWP... CUA's hurt because DeSales conference is weak, Haverford and Washington with weak records and from a much weaker Centennial than even last year (certainly weaker than five years ago), Gallaudet with a weak record and from a not so impressive NEAC, Carnegie Mellon's conference helps... but their record outweighs the help. The only help was Randolph-Macon which did give CUA and extra vRRO result (so let's move that to 4-2 - still two games behind Williams) and brings with them the ODAC SOS numbers.

[cugrad]

You still can't determine if one region is better than another.  They simply do not play against each other enough times.  The bottom line is that a team who wins the regular season conference and tournament championship, along with 25 wins simply should be playing a home game against somebody!!!  And to send this team to Mass to play the 8th ranked team in the second round game is a major injustice. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You still can't determine if one region is better than another.  They simply do not play against each other enough times.  The bottom line is that a team who wins the regular season conference and tournament championship, along with 25 wins simply should be playing a home game against somebody!!!  And to send this team to Mass to play the 8th ranked team in the second round game is a major injustice.

But that is what the criteria is used for and the committee works very hard to make these determinations. There is NO criteria that says a conference champ should stay at home in the NCAA tournament and play who ever is not a conference champ. By the way, 25 wins is not their regional total. In fact it was 21. And to add to your ranking argument... the Top 25 voters have Williams #8 and CUA #9 - seems like the #9 team should be on the road then.

Haverford and Washington with weak records and from a much weaker Centennial than even last year (certainly weaker than five years ago)

What is the obsession you and your colleague in making fun of the centennial?  I've heard multiple times how it was a down year for the conference, yet Dickinson still somehow managed to win a game.  Mid Atlantic has 5 teams left, and had the national runner up last year.  no need to put down a conference or a region. 

and why hasnt cold case chimed in on this.  i'm sure he's as anxious as anyone to take a dig at the process!

There isn't any obsession with making fun of the Centennial... but they are admittedly down. The bottom of the conference is not that good and the middle is maybe average. Even those in the Centennial admit the conference from top to bottom is not that good. Congrats to Dickinson for winning a game - that proves the top of the conference is better than the conference champ (though, not the best team) from the OAC. But for comparison purposes... Cabrini comes from a lousy conference, the CSAC, but proved they were a pretty good team last year... that doesn't mean the conference from top to bottom is one of the best in the country... or even the region... it just proves Cabrini was that good last year.

Dickinson is good this year... but should they be hosting Wooster because Dickinson won the Centennial and Wooster finished #2 in the NCAC - not a chance.

Please read the basketball handbook where all of this is spelled out... you may not agree with the committees decisions, but they are following the criteria and making the best decisions they can based on that criteria: http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2013/mens-basketball-championships-handbook

[NEPAFAN]

Love how the CUA contingent disappears only to reemerge to whine about the selection process.


Go up to New England and win just like Scranton did last year!

[ronk]

I am not dissing them... this is an SOS argument...

In region records at the end of the regular season when the SOS numbers would have been done:
For Williams: Amherst 25-2 and Middlebury 20-3
For Catholic: Merchant Marine 13-11 and Juniata 20-9

The SOS for Williams would have gotten stronger because their final two games were against opponents with 45-5 records versus Catholic which had a combined 33-20 record.

A D3boards.com poster, KnightSlappy, who does a lot of the raw data math has Williams with a final SOS of .577 and CUA at .531... that is .046 - significant distance between the two. He even predicted CUA would finish #3 in the region behind SMC who had a better SOS number than CUA and beat them head-to-head.
Again... not dissing Juniata and Merchant Marine who are good teams... this is a numbers argument and their records didn't help boost CUA's to get past Williams which got a significant boost in the final week with the teams they played.

And Williams is getting home court because they also only lost four games this season with a very good SOS. And the Mid-Atlantic is not as good as the Northeast... I hate to tell you. The Northeast got more at-large bids (the Mid-Atlantic got one) because there are better teams playing better opponents. The bottom of the Landmark was certainly much improved, but when the SOS is tied into OWP and OOWP... CUA's hurt because DeSales conference is weak, Haverford and Washington with weak records and from a much weaker Centennial than even last year (certainly weaker than five years ago), Gallaudet with a weak record and from a not so impressive NEAC, Carnegie Mellon's conference helps... but their record outweighs the help. The only help was Randolph-Macon which did give CUA and extra vRRO result (so let's move that to 4-2 - still two games behind Williams) and brings with them the ODAC SOS numbers.

No, it was CUA that won the head-to-head match with St. Mary's; I know cuz u were there, Dave. I got the vrro at 3(Scranton, St. Mary's, R-M) - 2(Scranton, DeSales).
  Now we want CUA to win, if only so we can have the same argument next week when they would meet the Va Wesleyan - Christopher Newport winner.

[nescac1]

Umm, Williams plays in the NESCAC.  In 2010, Williams made the national title game.  In 2011, Williams and Midd both made the Final Four, and Amherst made the Elite Eight.  2012 was a "down" year for NESCAC, and even still, Midd and Amherst both made the round of 32.  This year, NESCAC already has three teams in the Round of 32.  When was the last time that someone from Catholic's conference made it to the Final Four?   

Williams played FIVE games against two of the top seven teams in the country, going 2-3 in those five games.  Catholic played ONE game against a top 25 team, and none against anyone in the top 10.  I just don't see how it is an injustice that Catholic is not hosting.  These are two teams with very similar W-L records, but Williams plays in a tougher conference, and played a lot more games vs. elite opponents.  And the SOS numbers back it up.  I don't think that Williams deserves to host this game by a wide margin, and yeah, both probably deserve to host games this round, but I also see no argument for why Catholic should host that can't easily be shot down.  Winning a mediocre conference which earned zero at large bids is certainly not more impressive than losing by one point in the title game of a conference with three of the top seven teams in the country, and which has consistently sent teams to the Final Four, year in and year out, for the past decade.  To make a D-1 analogy, it's like being upset that a team which finishes second in the Big East has a higher seed than a team which wins the Atlantic 10. 

I agree that, ideally, these two teams should be meeting in the Sweet 16, but there are at least two other match-ups next round that are in the same category.  In all events, they are two very similar, and very evenly matched, teams, and I'd expect a game down to the wire regardless of the venue. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yes... I messed up with SMC and CUA... and probably the only reason SMC was ranked behind CUA was CUA's win. And I now do have CUA at 4-2 vRRO as they beat RMC who made the final regional rankings.

nescac1 - all valid points... though I wouldn't call the conference mediocre. It has improved greatly and remember a team from this conference beat Middlebury on their court last year in the Sweet 16 - they just couldn't get their act together with basically the same team this year to make an NCAA run.

As for anyone from Catholic's conference making the Final Four... the conference has been around six years and Middlebury got to the Elite 8. This conference is far more competitive than in years past... which is a good thing. Hopefully it will continue to improve.

[Charles]

No shooting sleeves or flopping in the Landmark Conference.

[r.w. mcnickels]

Go up to New England and win just like Scranton did last year!

That was a great night for the Mid-Atlantic, with Scranton and F&M knocking off NESCAC teams and Cabrini also winning to give the Mid-Atlantic three teams in the Elite Eight. It was especially sweet given some of the chatter before the games, including one Amherst poster who said video of F&M's previous game "made him feel much better" about winning. It would be nice to see Catholic go up to Williams and win this weekend, and for Dickinson to win at Wooster -- I think both teams have the pieces to win.

[cugrad]

The injustice is not that Catholic is playing at Williams.  The injustice is that Catholic, at 25 - 3, is not playing at home! Catholic is 4-0 against teams in the tournament, two of which are still alive.
I would still like to know why the committee placed these teams together in the second round. It would make more sense for Catholic to stay in the Mid-Atlantic region playing a home game against somebody from the South or Atlantic regions.  To send the second ranked team from the MA region to williams doesn't make sense.  I think a case could be made that Catholic shouold be ranked first in the MA region.

I would also like to know how many teams with regular season/tournament championships, along with a 25 - 3 record have travelled in the second round.  There is no doubt that Catholic should be playing at home, as should Williams.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The injustice is not that Catholic is playing at Williams.  The injustice is that Catholic, at 25 - 3, is not playing at home! Catholic is 4-0 against teams in the tournament, two of which are still alive.
I would still like to know why the committee placed these teams together in the second round. It would make more sense for Catholic to stay in the Mid-Atlantic region playing a home game against somebody from the South or Atlantic regions.  To send the second ranked team from the MA region to williams doesn't make sense.  I think a case could be made that Catholic shouold be ranked first in the MA region.

I would also like to know how many teams with regular season/tournament championships, along with a 25 - 3 record have travelled in the second round.  There is no doubt that Catholic should be playing at home, as should Williams.

cugrad - for starters... the 25-3 record is not relavent... we are talking about a 21-3 record when making these decisions and when the bracket was put together. That is CUA's regional record at the end of the regular season and conference tournament. Secondly, it doesn't matter what their record against teams in the tournament is - the committee isn't allowed and doesn't use that information. And thirdly, Alvernia had an SOS of .552 to CUA's .531 in the end... and they were 5-2 vRRO to CUA's 4-2... not sure you can put put CUA ahead of Alvernia who was also 24-4 (more wins).

Yes... these two teams probably shouldn't be playing... but there are a lot of these match-ups in the tournament this year because the parity in the nation. But to assume a team from down south should come up to play you... please explain who while also considering the entire make-up of the bracket. You have to bracket everything and consider everything before you just say a team from the south (and it would not have been VWC, HSC, or CNU most likely) would have come to you in the second round. RMC... sure... but at least them playing WPI shows the committee was trying to be as geographically creative as they could. And I don't think CUA fans would want to see RMC right now.

[Pat Coleman]

Matt... you want to reward a team for playing in a weaker conference and thus a weaker SOS versus a team that played in a more challenging conference, had a better SOS, and proved they could win with that schedule?

The .02 difference in SOS is sizable and it was probably a bigger spread since Williams played Middlebury and Amherst in the final week and Catholic played Merchant Marine and Juniata. And if we are looking at the primary criteria and basically all of them are a wash but SOS is the biggest difference - why shouldn't they give the team with the better SOS the host? If Williams and Catholic were up for the final at-large bid, they would use the exact same criteria and probably choose Williams because of the SOS.

Should we have the game between Wooster and Cabrini be played at Cabrini because the Cavs SOS was hurt so much by their conference?

Husson making the tournament does not help Catholic. There is no criteria for who in the tournament you played and Husson never made the regional rankings in any week including the last. Also, Husson doesn't exactly have a great WP and their opponents weren't that great... so that means a weak SOS.

Believe it or not... there are five criteria in the primary criteria and if most are a wash - and they pretty much are - and one is clearly better (and .02+ difference is noticeable)... then guess what... the SOS is the determining factor. It is just one of the criteria... but the others can't help make the decision. If they went to secondary criteria, there is a chance CUA would have gotten the bid thanks to the game with Transylvania counting in many parts... but clearly the SOS probably out-weighed having to go to secondary criteria.

Dissing Merchant Marine and Juniata is unfair. MMA and Juniata are two very good programs. Their kids are tough and they play hard.

Tough kids who play hard is not part of the criteria. There are hundreds of schools with tough kids who play hard.

[Charles]

Matt... you want to reward a team for playing in a weaker conference and thus a weaker SOS versus a team that played in a more challenging conference, had a better SOS, and proved they could win with that schedule?

The .02 difference in SOS is sizable and it was probably a bigger spread since Williams played Middlebury and Amherst in the final week and Catholic played Merchant Marine and Juniata. And if we are looking at the primary criteria and basically all of them are a wash but SOS is the biggest difference - why shouldn't they give the team with the better SOS the host? If Williams and Catholic were up for the final at-large bid, they would use the exact same criteria and probably choose Williams because of the SOS.

Should we have the game between Wooster and Cabrini be played at Cabrini because the Cavs SOS was hurt so much by their conference?

Husson making the tournament does not help Catholic. There is no criteria for who in the tournament you played and Husson never made the regional rankings in any week including the last. Also, Husson doesn't exactly have a great WP and their opponents weren't that great... so that means a weak SOS.

Believe it or not... there are five criteria in the primary criteria and if most are a wash - and they pretty much are - and one is clearly better (and .02+ difference is noticeable)... then guess what... the SOS is the determining factor. It is just one of the criteria... but the others can't help make the decision. If they went to secondary criteria, there is a chance CUA would have gotten the bid thanks to the game with Transylvania counting in many parts... but clearly the SOS probably out-weighed having to go to secondary criteria.

Dissing Merchant Marine and Juniata is unfair. MMA and Juniata are two very good programs. Their kids are tough and they play hard.

Tough kids who play hard is not part of the criteria. There are hundreds of schools with tough kids who play hard.

I'd put MMA and Juniata against any team in the NESCAC. I think you misunderestimate how good they are.