WBB: Landmark Conference

saratoga · February 11, 2009, 06:22:45 PM

Pat, thanks for the clarification on that point. However, based on the "other" standards set forth by the NCAA, I'm confused as to how Scranton's ranking of 2nd. toughest schedule in the nation was overlooked. Or how about the "same win/loss % in region", or "in region results vs. common opponents" (see previous post). I mean was the NCAA brain trust even reading their own guidelines?
To some degree this isn't that big a deal because Scranton could lose tonight at Kean & lose to Catholic on Sat. & people will be saying to the effect that the NCAA did get it right. However...they didn't get it right because the rankings are NOT a projection of where a team MAY end up, rather they are to be based on what a team has done to that particular point in time & in that regard they got it very wrong.
My other worry is if the NCAA can be this sloppy in adhering to their own guidelines now...how will this play out when it's to be decided who's in or out...who travels & who stays home & what do the brackets look like.
Every year I have renewed hopes that the NCAA will reinvent itself & move forward beyond provincial thinking or to any form of thinking at all... then this nonsense happens & I once again realize the fate of some really talented teams are being judged by far too many that either never actually played college ball or were absent when common sense was handed out.

ronk · February 11, 2009, 09:09:51 PM

Lady Royals struggle @ Kean but prevail 61-59. 25 Royal TOs, missed FTs, and 22 offensive rebounds by Kean were big factors. Big hustle game for Molly with 16 points and 7 blocks, Ryan with a big 3 pointer to give an 8 pt lead with 1 1/2 min to go and Megan with a good all-around game and great pass to Molly for a no-dribble layup late in the game. Big victory against a tough opponent on the road should help the Royals' resume.

Pat Coleman · February 12, 2009, 02:12:12 AM

Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean it's sloppy. You've cited some interesting things but here are the results with actual selection criteria: regional win-loss percentage, opponents winning percentage, opponents' opponents winning percentage, results vs. regionally ranked opponents. These, sir, are "the NCAA's own guidelines."

Mid-Atlantic Region W-L WL% OWP OOWP RRO
1. Messiah 18-2 .905     .561     .557 1-1
2. Moravian 16-4 .810     .641     .557 3-0
3. Muhlenberg 18-3 .857     .543     .517 1-1
4. DeSales 17-4 .810     .621     .538 3-2
5. Scranton 16-4 .810     .674     .551 1-3
6. Cabrini 14-4 .789     .566     .501 0-2

That's cool that you cite a common opponent for Scranton being ranked ahead of Moravian. How about the head-to-head result? That's an NCAA guideline.

Similar winning percentage, somewhat lower OWP, slightly higher OOWP, a head-to-head victory and a significantly better set of results against other teams in this regional ranking.

Seems clear to me. They are reading their guidelines. Are you?

Pat Coleman · February 12, 2009, 02:49:23 AM

Sorry -- I get riled up when someone accuses the committee of nonsense just because they don't like or understand the result.

TheNextLevel · February 12, 2009, 10:09:50 AM

I agree that Moravian is way over-rated & Scranton is the better team...but Pat is right that the system was used and there is some human input (sometimes bias). Like any other system there are always going to be abnormalities (think BCS in football). That's why we have a playoff! Even that can get skewed by upsets.

saratoga · February 12, 2009, 12:54:41 PM

Pat: I don't like the result because it makes minimal sense. I failed to mention head to head because that is but one of the guidelines listed. Are you implying that games vs. common opponents is of little consequence, or just another thing to consider. Think about that as a factor & whether it should mean something when one team is beating Team A & the other is losing...in the same conference & virtually everything else is a wash.
I guess it's only ok to question "selections" when you feel they are questionable...please refer to Moravian men last year. Personally, I really could care less right now where they (Lady Royals) are ranked. All I care is that the NCAA uses some common sense when reviewing the guidelines & making the selections.
I also could care less that D3 Hoops has yet to rank the Lady Royals when the coaches have them 18th. this week I believe. It's all subjective right now & once the NCAA's start it all washes out...my hope & only hope regardless whether Scranton gets in or not is that the NCAA gets it right & that means from the selections to the seedings.

Pat Coleman · February 12, 2009, 02:21:29 PM

If we point out something that's questionable, it's from an unbiased point of view and it's using the actual criteria. You seem focused on one little piece that affects your favorite team and you're forming accusations from that.

I am sure that Scranton will beat Moravian the second time around. However, with an identical record and a head-to-head win and a better record against regionally ranked opponents, Moravian has the advantage, right now, exactly as the NCAA guidelines say they should.

ronk · February 12, 2009, 04:09:06 PM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 12, 2009, 02:49:23 AM
Sorry -- I get riled up when someone accuses the committee of nonsense just because they don't like or understand the result.

Pat,
I give you an MSM(Moderator Self-Moderation) rating of .57, comparable to the OWP rating of very good.

kate · February 12, 2009, 04:15:40 PM

Can not believe that i'm following all this, but who has the movie rights? And i thought I was passionate about my Aggies - Holy cow (no pun), there ain't no passion like Royall passion!

saratoga · February 13, 2009, 11:35:46 AM

This will be the last time I revisit this because I still can't fathom the thinking on the Moravian # 2 Regional Ranking & Scranton's # 5 spot.
For instance, Moravian has 4 losses & they are to: 1. Rochester (19-1) 2. Catholic (12-10 /5-6) 3. Juniata (12-10 /6-5) 4. MMA (12-10 /5-6). The combined won/loss records for these schools is 55-31.
Scranton has 4 losses & they are to: Desales (18-4) 2. Messiah (20-2) 3. Moravian (18-4) 4. Rochester (19-1). These schools have a combined won/loss record of 75-11. Each & every one of Scranton's losses were to teams ranked in the D3 Hoops Top 25 at that time.
Therefore, if Scranton has supposidly the 2nd. toughest schedule in the nation, has the same total losses, has 1 conference loss compaired to Moravian's 3 losses & have their losses to teams with a far better winning % (OWP), how can Moravian possibly be in the # 2 spot with two other schools (Muhlenberg & Desales) between them?
I truly believe if these circumstances were reviewed by 100 independent basketball savy people we would end up with a vastly different looking ranking.
As far as I'm concerned, the Lady Royals are just as capable of losing their final 3 games as they are of winning them. They are a very young team comprised of virtually all freshmen & sophmores with 1 junior, 1 redshirt senior & 1 senior. They make far too many turnovers & far too few free throws to be a serious threat on the national scene...this year. That said, it's probably Coach Strong's best coaching job in a number of years to get these kids knocking on the door of the NCAA's yet again in this supposed "down year". The Lady Royals are not good enough to take any team for granted & they have to work their tails off for everything they get.
All I care about is regardless of which team gets selected, make sure that selection is based on merit, content & common sense as opposed to some questionable reasoning based on some obscure technicality. The End!

TheGrove · February 13, 2009, 02:31:14 PM

If you're coming out to the Susquehanna-Merchant Marine game tomorrow, wear pink!

http://www.susqu.edu/Sports/releases/Winter08-09/womens_basketball-pink_zone_day.html

Pat Coleman · February 13, 2009, 04:55:27 PM

Again, you fail to get it. It's not an obscure technicality. They are THE RULES. They are printed and made available to everyone and they have been consistent for years.

You should let it go since Scranton still has control of its destiny, with at least one more game against Moravian. But right now, apparently Scranton lost a game that it shouldn't have and you look like you are trying to find any detail you can to get around the printed guidelines.

Win your games. Losing to your fellow playoff contenders is NEVER good, not even in November or December. All in-region games count, no matter when they were played.

saratoga · February 13, 2009, 08:20:40 PM

You are so right...Scranton may have lost a game they shouldn't have. Then again, it appears Moravian lost at least two more games beyond that they shouldn't have. Losing to your "fellow" conference teams with no better than .500 records can NEVER be good...or can it?

Pat Coleman · February 13, 2009, 10:40:08 PM

Yeah, I was right, you aren't going to get it. Oh well.

ronk · February 15, 2009, 04:40:20 PM

Standings RS

Scranton 12 - 1 Scranton 6 - 0
Moravian 10 - 3 Moravian 3 - 0
Juniata 8 - 5 Juniata 3 - 1
Susque 8 - 5 Susque 3 - 2
Catholic 5 - 8 Catholic 2 - 3
MMA 5 - 8 MMA 1 - 2
Drew 3 - 10 Drew 1 - 5
Goucher 1 - 12 Goucher 1 - 7

Pa. schools hold serve for the weekend. Scr clinches home court for playoffs;will play loser of Sus-Jun; Moravian plays the winner.