BB: Just Some Guy's West Region Rankings

[infielddad]

Utility,
What are you talking about? Were you at the 2002 regional?
In 2002, the best team in the regional was Trinity.  They beat Pomona 6-3  and did it after having to play an earlier game within 2 hours of learning of the death of their assistant coach. Mike Frost of Trinity was brilliant against Pomona except for one pitch to Turner. The next day against Concordia  they had nothing left emotionally and lost to the better team that day. If you were not there and did not know Coach Meccage, you have no idea the emotional impact of finding him and trying to play baseball with his loss weighing on your every thought.
In 2004, Trinity ended up matched against George Fox.  Fox ended up throwing Hyde,  for 141 pitches on Sunday after he pitched 9 innings on Thursday.  Used him again to ride to the Championship.  Not too surprising he ended up having surgery not long after and has never pitched again.  Trinity was darn good in 2004 but Hyde was better.  If  they used pitchers in the same way, Trinity  may have been doing the same in Wisconsin.  But they didn't and Fox won in a very good game.  You might remember that Trinity  beat both Chapman and Cal St East Bay that year.
I think these were both in the last 10 years.
 

[BigPoppa]

Eastern Connecticut never fairs well against the SCIAC, and the same could be said for Montclair State and other top eastern powers.   

It is usually ECSU's first time outside and the West Coast schools already have 15-ish game under their belts.

[utilitycat17]

Infielddad,
I understand your affinity toward Trinity.  They have a fine program.  What I would like to know is why everyone believes there is any reason to believe, at this point in the season that there are as many as four or five teams from Texas that are better than all of the SCIAC and East Bay.  There is just no precedent for that.  Trinity is a team that I would think should be there in the end.  I have a harder time believing that Hardin Simmons and all of the other Texas schools are better than everyone else at this stage in the season.  If you have no track record you have to prove yourself.  I think it is just too early to jump the gun on Texas.

And as for the 2002 playoff, the number 1 and 2 seeds were not allowed to participate in the event because of a blunder by the West region comittee that put Dallas ahead of Chapman.  The national comittee did not pick Dallas because of their weak schedule and therefore could not skip them and include Chapman.  We may not have a team from Texas in the world series at all if that doesn't happen.

[Ralph Turner]

I'm just a little curious why everyone seems so sold on giving the Texas schools so much credit.  No one from Texas has done anything in the last 10 years.  The one time a team from Texas actually got to the World Series they were 2 and out, and they probably weren't the best from the west that year anyway; Pomona was probably the better team in 2002 and Chapman got screwed from the playoffs all together that year because of Dallas.  My point here is that every year there are numerous schools in Texas that get off to good starts, but it never amounts to anything.  I would be much more inclined to give credit to a school like Cal State East Bay who has a fairly good track record over the last few years.  They always seem to be right in the mix at the end of the year.  I would not discount the teams from the SCIAC so easily.  Although none of them are real national contenders, they all have the ability to win big games against anyone.  If East Bay lost to Claremont its could mean that Claremont is being undervalued.  It shouldn't make us undervalue East Bay.  If you look at the SCIAC over the last 10 or so years the top 5 teams have always been able to beat the best in the country.  Whittier has a pretty good history against Chapman, Eastern Connecticut never fairs well against the SCIAC, and the same could be said for Montclair State and other top eastern powers.   

I would also give more value to some of the NWC teams.  Especially George Fox and Linfield.  Both of those teams are very good every year.  Especially George Fox but not excluding Linfield.  Granted everyone seems to agree that George Fox is one of the top two teams in the region right now, but I would think Linfield deserves more credit in the early going than some of the more unproven teams from Texas.

All I am saying is that especially in D3 baseball history can tell us a lot, sometimes more than the present can.  The top teams in the nation are the same year in and year out.  The same tends to be the case at the regional level as well.  Until we get a little deeper into the season and the teams from Texas prove their worth a little more I'm not sold so many of them deserve such high praise. 

utilitycat, you are talking 2 different things.  Chapman is everyone's #1.  It took an incredible pitching outing by Nick Schafer to beat them last Saturday.  Perennially, except for GFU which won in 2004 and Concordia-Austin in 2002 which lost two 1-run games including to the Champion E. Conn, only one West Region team goes to the series and that has been...Chapman.

As for the rest, Trinity and Texas Lutheran had great regional series last year.  Texas Lutheran was the finalist.  Trinity outlasted Redlands and CSU-East Bay.  2006 Regional Results

I think that we are talking about the middle rungs on the regional ladder.  I did not see any NWC-ASC games this year as we have had in previous years, so we probably have to wait until the Regionals to figure this one out.   I think that we are talking about Texas teams because we have so many that I believe are in the middle rungs of this ladder, and the difference between 2 and 8 is very small.  I think that 4-5 Texas teams can win the ASC championship, TLU, HSU, Miss Coll, UT-D and if McMurry they can find some pitching by late April.  Fourth-year provisional UT-Tyler (ineligible for the ASC playoff bid) may be better than all of them, too.  When I reviewed the NWC, I just did not think the NWC had that much breadth and depth.

[Ralph Turner]

utility cat, let me give you first attempt at a West Region Ranking as described by a power rating.

Chapman-96
UT-Dallas-89
Texas Lutheran-88.8
UT-Tyler-88.7
George Fox-88.6
HSU-88.5
Redlands-81
CSU-EB-80.7

I think that is more accurate in describing the West at this time.

[dgilblair]

Eastern Connecticut never fairs well against the SCIAC, and the same could be said for Montclair State and other top eastern powers.   

It is usually ECSU's first time outside and the West Coast schools already have 15-ish game under their belts.

All the teams from the North are at a disadvantage when they head west or south for spring break.  Just like you said west teams have 15 games in north have only a couple.  Never mind the fact west teams have been outside playing, pitchers doing long toss (pitching seven or eight innings to the 3 or 4 for the northeasters), infielders taken grounders.....you get where I'm going.  It's a huge advantage early in the year. 

[Jim Dixon]

All the teams from the North are at a disadvantage when they head west or south for spring break.  Just like you said west teams have 15 games in north have only a couple.  Never mind the fact west teams have been outside playing, pitchers doing long toss (pitching seven or eight innings to the 3 or 4 for the northeasters), infielders taken grounders.....you get where I'm going.  It's a huge advantage early in the year. 

Fortunately, the way to go to the playoffs is by wining your conference.  Things might not be even in the beginning but it is all even compare to the schools that count. 

Although the South and West are out playing, all regions tend to start about the same time and conference games and in region games count the most for or against you.

Even though - I think it is important for teams to play good teams.  ECSU might not fare well in the spring but they seem to do well in May.

[dgilblair]

I couldn't agree more.  Do you think that a early season win could carry a little mojo with it if the teams meet again in May?

[Jim Dixon]

I'm just a little curious why everyone seems so sold on giving the Texas schools so much credit.  No one from Texas has done anything in the last 10 years.  The one time a team from Texas actually got to the World Series they were 2 and out

Typically a team who makes their first appearance in the Championship does not do well.  There are the exception in Ramapo and George Fox to the rule but for every team that wins the first time out, I can provide 10 who did not.  In fact the 22 teams with one app are 23-42 (including two champions).  Both Wheaton and Otterbein made it to the championship game but the rest are a lot of 0-2, 1-2 performances.

The point is that just because Concordia-Austin went 0-2 in the series it is more due their rookie status, not where they are from.

Correct me but did not the Texas Teams come late to D3?  I figured Chapman might have more appearances if they were in D3 for teh last 30 years.

[Jim Dixon]

I couldn't agree more.  Do you think that a early season win could carry a little mojo with it if the teams meet again in May?

I think not.  The team at the beginning of the year is different than the team at the end.  An early season win should certainly help their confidence. 

I am looking forward to seeing how Averett (12-1)  does this weekend in their first conference test  - but this is off topic and out of region.

[Just_Some_Guy]

I think that you have to include both Trinity and Texas Lutheran in any West Region discussion you have of powerhouses (OTHER than Chapman).  Texas Lutheran has been 1 win away the last two years. In 2003, they started the season 26-0, but lost out in the ASC tournament and didn't receive an at-large bid.  I think that makes a huge difference.  In the NWC, if you win the regular season, you're in.  In the ASC - if you win the regular season that means nothing, because you still have to win an 8 team tournament just to get to the regional.  With so much depth in that conference (moreso than the NWC and SCIAC) that's a TOUGH tournament to get out of.  Watching the Redlands be the #1 seed and go two and Q last year in the regional definitely had some effect on the way I did the rankings, and I admitted that bias. I did have George Fox ahead of the Texas teams and others might go with Texas teams at #2-#4, I don't know.

As far as Cal State EB goes. I definitely considered them and now I would probably put Claremont into the equation as well, but I don't know that either ends up making my rankings.  I tried to do it based on what has happened thus far this year and not so much about where they'll end up or speculating, etc. (though I did a bit with Trinity - but you could also see their caliber of play against UTD). It was just something I had fun with and helped me get a better grasp of what's going on in the region and familiarize myself with all the teams.

[infielddad]

Not that I am a complete homer, but Trinity is pretty new to DIII at a  competitive level.  Coach Scannell was hired in 1999.  He followed Pete Hughes, now at Va Tech who was hired in 1997 before moving to Boston College.  Until about 1990 or so it was a DI program.  From 1990-1997, it just was not very good.
Since Coach Scannell came on board, they have been in the West Regional 3 times and played well each time.  Not good enough to win but in the final game with chances to win in 2 or the 3. 
The SCAC schedule does not help them because they  have anywhere from 3-4 weeks before the regional without any games. Put Cavan and Chuck Huggins (now at UCSB with the most appearances of any pitcher to this point in the season) in their lineup and you would be talking about Trinity right with Chapman.  With Vera, Oates, Bignall, Holman and Zador, Verrios, etc... they will again be knocking on that door come May.

[utilitycat17]

"Correct me but did not the Texas Teams come late to D3?  I figured Chapman might have more appearances if they were in D3 for teh last 30 years."  Quote from Jim Dixon

Although you may be right that the Texas teams came late to D3 baseball they did not come along much later than Chapman.  Chapman has only been at the D3 level since 1994.  Gaining their first appearance at the World Series in 1997.  They were a D1 program prior to 1994.  Although you are right about first timers not doing well at the series as Chapman did not win their first game at the series until their second trip in 2000.  They have however been able to hold onto their position as a perennial playoff team since that 1997 season. 

[utilitycat17]

[In 2003, they started the season 26-0, but lost out in the ASC tournament and didn't receive an at-large bid.  I think that makes a huge difference.  In the NWC, if you win the regular season, you're in.  In the ASC - if you win the regular season that means nothing, because you still have to win an 8 team tournament just to get to the regional.  With so much depth in that conference (moreso than the NWC and SCIAC) that's a TOUGH tournament to get out of.

This is probably not the right place for this question, but I can't think of a better place for it.  How do people feel about conference tournaments deciding the automatic bid from a conference?  I personally have never liked the idea of them, especially at the D3 level.  I don't understand their purpose.  If you are going to decide your AQ from one weekend why did you play the whole season; just to get a better seed to play the same teams over again?  I can't imagine these tournaments are great money makers as they are for D1 basketball.  It just doesn't seem fair to me when in the last few years we have seen instances where good teams were left out of the playoffs because the pool C had to be filled by top ranked teams who couldn't win their tournaments.  Two examples are in 2003 Ripon, who was the #1 in the country, lost to St. Norbert, who was below .500.  Ripon was given a pool C bid taking one away from another worthy team.  St. Norbert, by the way, lost both of their games in routs.  The other example I believe is also from 2003 with the same thing happening for Eastern Connecticut.  My point here is that if you come from a strong conference wouldn't you want as many legitimate pool C opportunities as possible to get more teams in.  If they are all being taken up by teams losing their tounament unexpectedly it takes opportunities away from other deserving teams.  Meaning undeserving teams are taking away the pool A bid.

utilitycat, please forgive me if I misinterpreted your post, but I have brought what I thought was your post out of the quote notation.  I will give my opinion below.   Thanks, Ralph.

[utilitycat17]

By the way, I'm trying to learn how to use the quotes.  So I appologize for the way the last two posts came out with the quote all screwed up.