Great Lakes Region

[diehardfan]

These posts clearly need to go here too...

Personally, I'm just trying to figure out what your record would have to be to make your regional record actually exactly .667. Is it even possible? I'm pretty sure it's not, at least within the confines of the sum of all the game any school plays in all sports over the course of a year!?

The way they're interpreting this rule is clearly not the way that it was intended. Anyone who has taken a basic science or math course knows that there are not an adequate number of significant figures in the math problem to make .666666 possible.  180(three sig figs)/18(two sig figs) = 10 (two sig figs), and .67. They can add one sig fig if they really want and make it an approximation, but adding four sig figs is absurd to an infinite degree.

The Pool B-C thing could be counted as an honest clerical error. The Hope-Carthage thing an intelligent decision to stay within the scope of the law as it is this year because it's dangerous to jump in the grey area. This one makes me annoyed. 

[diehardfan]

To get .667, a team must have a record of 667 wins and 333 losses, and nothing less! 

Exactly!  Wheaton plays in quite a few sports, but unless you count all the games in tennis separately or something, I'm pretty sure with all our mens and womens sports we wouldn't come even close to 667 games. The AT part of this rule is there for a reason, and it's there to demonstrate that anyone who has won at least 2/3rds of their games should be in the top bracket. The fact that any mathematician would be ashamed to read their statement only supplements how obvious it is that they are not following the intent of the rule.

After the clerical error, I made a joke that the NCAA person who make the notations probably went to a DI school. Now I'm sure of it. This is clearly a product of large class sizes and lack of personal attention. Someone clearly slipped through the cracks. 

Seriously though, the people who make and interpret rules are not scientists. I get this ALL the time in my work with government standards and the EPA. That's somewhat understandable, but the fact remains that numbers and formulas and calculations need to be done in accordance with internationally accepted scientific principles!!!  I think that schools like Hope have a very legitimate, scientifically based complaint to take up with the NCAA administration.I really hope they make every effort to do that before the end of the season and get this cleared up so that the process maintains some integrity.

And I think it behooves all of us to go ahead and make the call to our schools and let them become aware that this kind of nonsense is going on so that they can make the appropriate calls. Doesn't someone from the Hope administration have the head honcho of all of the NCAA's card after his visit or something?

[diehardfan]

And I mean it, people need to start making calls right now. A lot of them.

[pennstghs]

and didn't we say that the NCAA's selection process of determing their champ is more constructive than football

All this talk is ridiculous

[Mr. Ypsi]

While it may (and no doubt will) be crucial to some teams by Sunday, it is actually irrelevant in terms of Hope/Calvin, since the final in-region winning % will be what matters.  Calvin will finish at 12-7, 13-7, or 14-6, none of which need worry about the NCAA's inability to round numbers.  It is absurd, annoying, laughable, etc., but not relevant.

However, some teams will finish at 12-6, 14-7, 16-8, whatever.  Their opponents apparently will get shafted!

[ChicagoHopeNut]

While it may (and no doubt will) be crucial to some teams by Sunday, it is actually irrelevant in terms of Hope/Calvin, since the final in-region winning % will be what matters.  Calvin will finish at 12-7, 13-7, or 14-6, none of which need worry about the NCAA's inability to round numbers.  It is absurd, annoying, laughable, etc., but not relevant.

However, some teams will finish at 12-6, 14-7, 16-8, whatever.  Their opponents apparently will get shafted!

Definitely, I think all the regular Hope posters are aware of the fact that by Sunday morning the .667 distinction won't matter to Hope or Calvin. It just happens that this is a board dominated by Hope and Calvin posters so we have the most information on these schools and the situation today is such that it provides ample points of discussion and analysis. The sad reality though is that many other schools will be affect by this arcane interpretation. Combined with the many other NCAA blunders (Pool C) and faulty logic (Hope-Carthage is less than 200 miles) this is just another example of NCAA incompetence or at least lack of concern for D3.

[realist]

Based on the results this evening it is apparent the only thing more important than QoWI is getting a W.  Right? 

[smedindy]

Goodbye Witt - it's been real. Artie's suits will spend a long off-season in the closet.

[kiltedbryan]

Hi Board:

Took in the OAC semifinals tonight.  Still trying to get around to posting up recaps/impressions over on the OAC board, but for this board I have some comments on what might happen after tomorrow's OAC final between Capital and John Carroll.  My question to myself:  Can both teams make the NCAA regardless of tomorrow's outcome?

Cap as a Pool C:  Capital's regional winning percentage after losing tomorrow night would be, well, crappy.  18-9, .666ish (I've learned that this last digit is variable).    .666 or .667 does not equal a Pool C, probably regardless of whether their QoWI can actually end up reasonable.  8 in-region losses is just too many.

But on the other hand, JCU will have 7 such losses if they lose and become a Pool C tomorrow:  18-7, .720, with a pretty darn good QoWI.  I think even that is below the Pool C win % threshold from last year.  The fact that they've been ranked might help, in so far as we know that their name is under serious discussion.  The GL is falling apart in terms of Pool Cs; I'm not sure how many we'll really end up getting.

I've become a fan of the OAC this year, with my move to the Columbus area, and I think it would be decidedly sad if only the AQ made it from the league.  I hope that doesn't happen.

Three of the teams I saw tonight- B-W, JCU, and Capital, could all give Wittenberg, Wooster and (probably-I haven't seen them) Hope a serious basketball contest.  I'm not sure that these OAC teams all deserve slots in the top 25, but I think all three of them could beat Wittenberg, who spent most of the year in the top 10.  This year, the "hyped" OAC team (ONU) didn't deliver, and I don't think anyone nationally has been able to quite reverse the image of ONU as the unquestioned "best team in Ohio" after their impressive string of December wins during Jan/Feb when ONU failed to even be the fourth best team in their conference.

I think it would be a shame to only get one OAC team- and I hope that their representative(s) to the NCAA tourney win two or three games each to show the country how well they can play.

[sac]

Witt's loss probably ensures that Hope will appear in the final Great Lakes Rankings if they lose tommorrow.  This will go a long way to be being considered for a C.  They should at least be in the discussion frequently.  Of course we'll never see this ranking.

An OWU win would definately shut the door on Witt if it isn't already......don't know haven't really looked but generally losses in anything but the Conf. Finals are not looked upon well unless your ultra elite which Witt was not.

Hard to believe but the #5 and #6 ranked teams may be a difficult search for the GL reps if things go as planned.  Hope-W, Woo-W, JCU-W

Witt may get a reprieve and get #6............however, the GL may only get 5 teams and one would be Lake Erie. 

[David Collinge]

Yes, I think the WIAC gets three teams in, this year:

UW-La Crosse defeats UW-Oshkosh and advances to the WIAC finals against UW-Stevens Point.  I think this result removes any lingering doubt about whether the WIAC will get three teams in.  (The answer is 'yes.')  So there's two Pool C's by the wayside: one to Oshkosh, the other to Saturday's LaX/SP loser.

Oshkosh is now at .750 in-region and should end up with a QoWI of 10.041.  They beat Stevens Point and Grinnell (regionally ranked teams.)
If LaX loses to SP tomorrow, they'll be at .708 and 9.917, with wins over Oshkosh (3x!) and St. Thomas.

I think they're both in.  Oh, and so is Stevens Point.

I guess I should retract this before I end up looking stupid(er).  I gather that the WIAC teams' QoWIs were artifically inflated by the presence of a win by UW-Eau Claire's women's team appearing on the men's schedule, or something like that.  The "real" QoWIs are somewhat lower, pushing La Crosse, and possibly Oshkosh as well, onto the bubble.

I have given up trying to calculate QoWI and prognosticate Pool C bids; I'll just wait for the announcement tomorrow. 

[goscots]

So if Wooster, Hope, JCU and Lake Eire all win their tournaments and Westminster is a pool B, either Wittenberg of Capital should be at the top of the list for the Great Lakes region. Does anyone expect the Selection committee to not pick at least 1 GL team from the at large group of 18? In other words, I don't think those two teams are necessarily out yet.

[sac]

So if Wooster, Hope, JCU and Lake Eire all win their tournaments and Westminster is a pool B, either Wittenberg of Capital should be at the top of the list for the Great Lakes region. Does anyone expect the Selection committee to not pick at least 1 GL team from the at large group of 18? In other words, I don't think those two teams are necessarily out yet.

I agree...........except that they don't chose just to chose a team from a region, they stack them up vs all other regions.  It would seem to me Witt and either JCU or Cap loser would squeeze in with one of the last few Pool C's, but I'm entirely not sure about that.


I think I remember a year with only 4 Great Lakes teams not to long ago.

[diehardfan]

While it may (and no doubt will) be crucial to some teams by Sunday, it is actually irrelevant in terms of Hope/Calvin, since the final in-region winning % will be what matters.  Calvin will finish at 12-7, 13-7, or 14-6, none of which need worry about the NCAA's inability to round numbers.  It is absurd, annoying, laughable, etc., but not relevant.

However, some teams will finish at 12-6, 14-7, 16-8, whatever.  Their opponents apparently will get shafted!

It was never in reference to Hope-Calvin from me, it was in reference to Hope-Wheaton, as Scott and I figured out that if Wheaton won the CCIW tourney, Hope would get two more QOWI points. That's now obviously moot. I'm sure it affects MANY other teams, however.

[Gregory Sager]

But on the other hand, JCU will have 7 such losses if they lose and become a Pool C tomorrow:  18-7, .720, with a pretty darn good QoWI.  I think even that is below the Pool C win % threshold from last year.

No, last year's Pool C RW% threshold was lower than that. It was Illinois Wesleyan's .714 (15-6).