BB: E8: Empire 8

[WrongArm]

Bob,

I believe that Division II Northeast 10, that includes Pace, Franklin Pierce, Bentley, Bryant, Southern Connecticut and others, plays with wood for their conference games and switches to metal for non-conference games. By the time the tournaments roll around they've played plenty of games with both. The switch doesn't seem to slow Franklin Pierce at all.

Phil

[Bob Maxwell]

WrongArm,

Interesting... thanks.

[WrongArm]

... no posts for the Empire 8 since August... I guess I'll break the drought...

2008 Empire 8 Baseball Preseason Coaches Poll
1.   Ithaca College                                16 points
2.   St. John Fisher College                    13
3.   Rochester Institute of Technology       8
      Stevens Institute of Technology         8
5.   Utica College                                  5

Maybe the addition of Stevens Tech will make this 5-team league a bit more interesting. I haven't followed ny d3 baseball for very long... but I remember Hartwick dropping baseball. Is there any hope of ever fielding 7 teams in this conference?

[JQV]

a bit more interesting.

Before it gets more interesting, it must first become interesting, which it hasn't been ... ever.  The Bombers really need more than one Cortland and RPI as challenging games during the regular season.

I haven't followed ny d3 baseball for very long... but I remember Hartwick dropping baseball. Is there any hope of ever fielding 7 teams in this conference?

Probably not.  I don't forsee the E8 adding a lot of all sports members anytime soon.  Why would they?  They got autos in most sports already.  First priority is finding a football only member I would presume.

[BoomerIL]

JoseQViper.....

Gee, I didn't realize that Ithaca played against so many "cupcake" teams???  Playing against Cortland as you mentioned, then Brockport, Montclair State, Cal, St.John Fisher, RIT, and even the Liberty League teams, I really didn't see many blow-out games in their stats.   And, if I'm not mistaken, I didn't see where they played RPI last season??  You make the Ithaca team seem like they don't have a challenging schedule, past or present.  Ithaca has a very good program, but don't think their competition isn't challenging for them.

[JQV]

JoseQViper.....

Gee, I didn't realize that Ithaca played against so many "cupcake" teams???  Playing against Cortland as you mentioned, then Brockport, Montclair State, Cal, St.John Fisher, RIT, and even the Liberty League teams, I really didn't see many blow-out games in their stats.   And, if I'm not mistaken, I didn't see where they played RPI last season??  You make the Ithaca team seem like they don't have a challenging schedule, past or present.  Ithaca has a very good program, but don't think their competition isn't challenging for them.

Interesting points.  Not sure you really refuted my point.  I will concede that we did not play RPI last season, which is a shame as that was a good three game set over a weekend.  Other than that, outside of Montclair, you really haven't proved that there is a lot of competition for IC in upstate new york.

For example:

IC's all time record against:


Brockport 6-3

Montclair State 11-11

Cal (I assume you mean the spring trip.  There are too man teams out there to add up our all time record against them).

St.John Fisher 16 2

RIT 55-14

the Liberty League teams
UR 47-6 (which includes, for the record, 8 straight wins).
Caz 3-0 (including a 37-11 win...is that a blowout?).
Clarkson 61-13
Hamilton 7-1
Bart 47-3
RPI 61-22
St. Lawrence 73-16

that adds up to 387-92 against the teams you referenced in your post.  Not exactly competition.

Just like football, everyone wants to write off IC as being overconfident or relying solely on past success, yet no one touches them.  Cortland deserves to heckle us a little this year after our collapse in the regional but, they still can't win the big one.

While I agree that upstate baseball is certainly improving, there is no reason to overstate its current quality.

[BaseB13]

Woah woah woah Jose.. No one is arguing that Ithaca is not good.  Infact their program is very strong.  But let's also be serious here for a moment, when is the last time Ithaca was even in the world series?  You speak of these other programs and post historic records, which is fine, but until the last 7 - 8 years, those programs didn't even have full-time coaches.  The landscape of NY Region baseball is completely different now.  I'd argue that many teams in New York State have consistently improved over the last few years while Ithaca has been sitting in the same spot, playing second fiddle to Cortland or to a team from outside of the region.  Yes your program is very good and is historically one of the best programs ever.  Let's also remember that most other teams have to make it through a conference tournament.  Ithaca on the other hand is handed a bid every single year.  Yes they do play a difficult schedule but there have been some years in the past where Ithaca was very borderline deserving to be in the tournament.  I'd say 2005 may have been one of those years, and I'd bet if the program didn't have so much history behind it, a team with a similar schedule/record without the name "Ithaca" would not have made the tournament that year.  So before you hate on the rest of the region, many of those teams in the last 5 to 10 years have been improving while Ithaca is that "other team in New York".   In my opinion, Cortland deserves to heckle you guys a lot, you havent been to the world series since 1994.  RPI and Brockport have been to it more recently than you guys and Cortland has been there four times since 2000.  Even a team like St John Fisher, which 5 years ago or so was playing at East Rochester High School, is up and coming, which they proved last year by winning a few games in regionals.  I'd also argue that it's far more difficult to win a national championship now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.  So I will write Ithaca off as being over confident until they do what Cortland, RPI, and Brockport have done this decade, win the "big one" in the regionals and get to Wisconsin.

[pudge27]

Viper,
     Holy cripe.  I've got to say that I normally wouldn't care too much about the E8, but I'm miffed by your comments.  I will agree with your point that the E8 as a conference is pretty weak.  Fisher is on it's way, and seem to be building a program that can last.  Pretty weak after that.

     As for your other comments, let me be the first to welcome you back from 1993.  How was the Gin Blossoms concert? Ithaca is still a good program, but they ain't what they used to be.  Talking about the Bombers all time records vs. these schools (Caz, really?? As in Cazenovia???) is like saying Madonna is a good looking woman.  Maybe a long time ago, but definitely on the wrong side of prime. 

[BoomerIL]

JoseQViper....

My apologies.....I wasn't trying to incite a vigorous exchange of words with my questions or comments.  I was just trying to say that Ithaca has a very good program and that Cortland and RPI are not the only teams that should get some consideration from you.  In your response with all of those stats, it speaks volumes about the success of Ithaca as a powerful program from the New York region, as are many other programs.

I don't dispute what they have done, I was just trying to make a point that although winning is how a program is judged, don't make lite of the fact that there are other good programs in upstate New York.  And like "BaseB13 and pudge27" stated, these other programs are on the rise.  Remember, like I have stated before in other 'posts' on this web site, players gravitate toward those successful programs with hopes of gaining a chance to play on a national contending championship team.  Until the school can hoist-up that NCAA DIII Championship trophy, it is good to be somewhat humble.   

[JQV]

1.  Anyone ready to post the "NY is improving" take can just stop plagiarizing me.  Restating what I posted is not a counterargument.

2.  I stand by my statement that outside of Cortland and one or two other games (I hastily included RPI even though they aren't on our schedule and now, in retrospect, will add non-NY teams such as Montclair or the teams in California after good counterpoints) IC's regular season is a total snoozefest as the vast majority of the teams simply are not competitive.

3. I posted the all-time records to respond to this:

You make the Ithaca team seem like they don't have a challenging schedule, past or present.

4.  I included Caz on the list because there was a reference made to the challenge the Liberty League poses to IC.

5. 

As for your other comments, let me be the first to welcome you back from 1993.  How was the Gin Blossoms concert?

  That is pretty good, +k.  But I am pretty sure this is re-cycled from another board earlier this winter.  Still funny though.

6. 

So I will write Ithaca off as being over confident until they do what Cortland, RPI, and Brockport have done this decade, win the "big one" in the regionals and get to Wisconsin.

 
There is no "big one" in regionals.  That is just the point.  For a reference, see Bills, Buffalo; Broncos, Denver; Braves, Atlanta; Indians, Cleveland.

EDIT: Ah, what the hell, +k all around.

[WrongArm]

Boomer... I hope your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek for that apology. Jose is leading with his chin. Ithaca hasn't played a game this year and he's already running to the trophy case, Windex in hand.

I mentioned Stevens earlier not just because they're new in the E8, but because they're playing an impressive non-conference schedule. By the time Ithaca visits the Hoboken plastic grass at the end of March, Stevens will have played Salisbury, Kean, Eastern Connecticut, Johns Hopkins and Wooster. I don't know if they've got the talent to play with Ithaca, but they certainly should be ready to face tough competition. Maybe Jose won't have to snooze through the weekend.

Regardless of the outcome, I give Stevens credit for the commitment and effort to become as competitive as possible. This is certainly a good thing for the conference. Then again, maybe the E8 ought to give up on baseball altogether since only 5 of 9 members play the game.

[BaseB13]

Jose, Caeznovia is not in the Liberty League, where you get that from?  WrongArm, Stevens has a decent program and they do play a very strong schedule.  I think last year or the year before they were a game away from appearing in the Regionals and had a pretty strong record.. Ithaca is good no doubt about it but Jose is delusional about just how good they are.  Let's see Ithaca beats all the Liberty League teams and SUNYAC teams because when they have to play Utica four times in one weekend they can throw their JV pitchers.  Then they have all their top arms to throw against non conference opponents mid week such as Rochester, Cortland, Clarkson, St Lawrence etc.  So while those teams are throwing their number 5 or piecing together a game with 5 different pitchers, Ithaca can save their top arms for the best teams they possibly play because their conference games are completely meaningless.  Being an independent team gives them a tremendous advantage with scheduling and beating the best teams on their schedule. 

[WrongArm]

BaseB13...

Utica may have had a lousy record last year but I don't think Ithaca screws around with any conference games. Last season against Utica:
     Game 1 -- Jeremy Peters 6.0 innings, Pete McDaniel 1.0 innings
     Game 2 -- Adam Brown 6.0 innings, Ryan Mays 1.0 inning
     Game 3 -- Shane Wolf 7.0 innings
     Game 4 -- Nick Sotung 6.0 innings, Matt Lavoie 1.0 inning
This doesn't look like the JV pitching staff to me. Besides, Ithaca plays Utica on a single weekend. Are you suggesting the E8 is so weak that Ithaca can pitch the JV every weekend? That's just not happening.

To be fair, I think that without an automatic bid, Ithaca has to be good all the time. Its not enough to win the conference, they have to do it convincingly and then win their non-conference games too. They deserve all the respect they get.

[JQV]

Let's see Ithaca beats all the Liberty League teams and SUNYAC teams because when they have to play Utica four times in one weekend they can throw their JV pitchers.  Then they have all their top arms to throw against non conference opponents mid week such as Rochester, Cortland, Clarkson, St Lawrence etc.  So while those teams are throwing their number 5 or piecing together a game with 5 different pitchers, Ithaca can save their top arms for the best teams they possibly play because their conference games are completely meaningless.  Being an independent team gives them a tremendous advantage with scheduling and beating the best teams on their schedule. 

First, I think the "scheduling" argument rings pretty hollow given the weather in upstate.  My memory from my time at IC is that the baseball schedule between the spring trip and the NCAA tournament is a loose estimate at best.  One year, IC's number 1 made like 7 or 8 consecutive starts because so many games were cancelled in between.

Either way, this is an interesting theory I had not considered so I looked it up.

In 2007 IC started:

SJF
3/31 (DH) Mays, Sottung
4/1 (DH) Brown, Wolf

Cortland
4/3 Lavoie

Utica
4/21 (DH) Sottung, Wolf
4/22 (DH) Brown, Peters

UR
4/25 Sottung

Based on number of starts, I'd rank IC's pitchers in this order
1. Sottung
2. Wolf
3. Brown
4. Mays
And if memory serves, Peters is pretty talented but was injured last year which is why he only made 2 starts.

Either way, under your logic BaseB13, Cortland beat IC because IC used its top pitchers in the four weekend games preceding the game with C-State and was left with only Matt Lavoie (who made a whopping 3 starts) to pitch the mid-week game.

As for Caz.  I stand corrected.

[BaseB13]

Jose well clearly as an Ithaca alumni you're going to be very biased.   I'd argue that's not a large enough sample size.  My argument is very simple.  Over the last 5 to 10 years Ithaca's baseball program has been in a relative state of limbo.  They have neither gotten better or worse.  A very good program none the less.  However, the rest of the teams that you attempt to put down have improved significantly over the last 5, 10, or 20 years.  Ithaca's prime was back in the 80's.. It's been awhile.   I also think one of your examples, last year Ithaca through Sottung (their ace) 7.2 innings on a Wednesday while Rochester through each of their starting pitchers 2 innings each.  Ithaca put up zero runs against Rochester's ace and Rochester put up 3 runs against Ithacas (granted less innings).  I have seen Veenema and Sottung both pitch in person, theyre both very good.  I'd bet if Veenema had thrown that whole game the score could have easily been 6 to 4 Rochester instead of 6 to 4 Ithaca.  That example right there happens consistently throughout the year for Ithaca.  If I was Coach Valsente I would do the exact same thing.  However, you cannot argue that Ithaca does not have an advantage when it comes to lining up their pitching because they are an independent team and if they win 20 to 25 games they're a lock for the tournament because of their name "Ithaca".  I still feel over the last five years or so Ithaca has been playing second fiddle to Cortland.

One question for you as a former or current bomber... I meet more people who claim to have "played baseball" at Ithaca but never really "played" there.  What's with this at IC?  I always find it to be amusing when I discover they really didnt play there.. Just curious side question.