BB: E8: Empire 8

[Bob Maxwell]

St. John Fisher is off to a good start... won today 7-1 over York, PA.  That puts them at 4-1 on the year so far. 

Now you can all discuss the merits of their strength of schedule on the spring tirp.   

This early, I'm surpirsed they can get a game every day... but they are on the field playing... 

[JQV]

I also think one of your examples, last year Ithaca through Sottung (their ace) 7.2 innings on a Wednesday while Rochester through each of their starting pitchers 2 innings each.  Ithaca put up zero runs against Rochester's ace and Rochester put up 3 runs against Ithacas (granted less innings).  I have seen Veenema and Sottung both pitch in person, theyre both very good.  I'd bet if Veenema had thrown that whole game the score could have easily been 6 to 4 Rochester instead of 6 to 4 Ithaca.  That example right there happens consistently throughout the year for Ithaca.

Nah.  This doesn't prove your point either. 

Sottung pitches 6.2 IP on Saturday April 21 at Utica.  They didn't yank him early so he could be ready for UR.

Then he goes and throws 7.2 IP against UR on April 25.

And you can't argue that they burned him up against UR knowing they could just give him a ton of rest after that game because he turns around and throws 9.0 IP May 1 against St. Lawrence.

We agree that the E8 is weak.  We also agree that upstate baseball is improving.  But all the reasons that upstate baseball hasn't caught IC yet simply aren't in the numbers.

Trust me, no one wants upstate baseball to improve more than me.  I have thoroughly enjoyed the improvement in upstate football which is dramatically different than even my time there 1999-2003.  Good games every week really hold your interest.  Heck, improved upstate baseball might even get me to fly back to Ithaca for a game in the spring (which I used to love).  But for now, it is a boring time of the college sports year outside of one or two dates. 

One question for you as a former or current bomber... I meet more people who claim to have "played baseball" at Ithaca but never really "played" there.  What's with this at IC?  I always find it to be amusing when I discover they really didnt play there.. Just curious side question.

First, let me say that I did not play baseball at IC just in case there was any confusion or some of my previous posts were read to imply that.  Second, I know this phenomenon too and it cracks me up.  I think there are two basic guys that it applies to:

1) Guy that couldn't hack it.  He thought he was good, told his buddies at home he was coming to IC to play baseball, and simply underestimated the quality of the program and its players, so he lies.

2) Guy that was one of the 790824359872435987 JV options preserved "just in case."  Moreso than any other IC sport, JV baseball players think they are this close to Varsity stardom.  I think Val attracts a lot of kids on rep. alone and really stuffs them all into his JV roster just in case.  So you have a lot of ex-JVers that actually did play but saw the writing on the wall.

[pudge27]

I'm glad to see that Fisher is off to a good start.  I think that they'll have an easier time improving their southern schedule as they start to build a reputation.  There's only so many top tier teams and I don't think they're likely to schedule too many percieved cupcakes because there's nothing in it for them.  Make the regionals a few years in a row and you'll get more big boys to play you.  I think they'll get to that point in the next few years. 

I'd be expecting a good year from Fisher.  After all, they have Andy Van Slyke on their team.  Although I did notice on their roster that he goes by "Andrew" Van Slyke.  No doubt to avoid any confusion with the former all-star CF.

[JQV]

Is Andrew Andy's kid?  Andy is from Utica.  Doubt he lives there now though.

[BaseB13]

Jose, that's pretty funny that you're aware of that occurring also.  I meet so many of them but then I soon discover they didn't really contribute or ever play on the team.  The reasons you listed make sense.  As for the Sottung example, So he threw on 3 days rest (not unheard of, happens all the time at the high school and college level)..But then pitching against StLawrence 6 days later is not that big a deal.  I guess I'd ask this, if Ithaca is so good and so deep why bring your ace back on 3 days rest at all to play lowly Rochester (as you suggest they are).  From the looks of that box score had Ithaca not used their ace it looks like they may not have even won that game.  I mean Rochester threw relievers and the back end of their rotation for the majority of the game.  If Ithaca was in the Liberty League(which would never happen because the conference is designed to have similar academic schools in conference)  they wouldnt be able to line their pitching up this way and they'd have a much tougher time playing four games a weekend against RPI, Rochester, St Lawrence, and Skidmore when it's 1 v 1, 2 v 2, etc.  They'd still be very good and Id pick them to be right at the top of the conference, but it wouldn't be as dominant as you say.  On top of this, Ithaca would fare worse in their non conference games as well because they wouldn't be able toline their pitching up.

[pudge27]

I don't think it's Andy's kid.  Last I knew, Andy Van Slyke was coaching with Detroit.  Not sure if that's still the case.  There are other Van Slykes in and around Utica, but it could be a relation.  Anybody else out there know?  Scuba??

[Jim Dixon]

I don't think it's Andy's kid.  Last I knew, Andy Van Slyke was coaching with Detroit.  Not sure if that's still the case.  There are other Van Slykes in and around Utica, but it could be a relation.  Anybody else out there know?  Scuba??

From the Detroit Tigers web site:

Andy Van Slyke and his wife Lauri reside in St. Louis, MO during the off-season...the couple has three children A.J. (11/19/83), Scott (7/24/86) and Jared (1/6/89) -- A.J. signed with St. Louis after being the club's selection in the 23rd round of the June 2005 draft, while Scott signed with the Los Angeles Dodgers after being the club's selection in the 14th round of the June 2005 draft.

[pudge27]

Thanks Jim.  Great name from the past.  Van Slyke had a stretch of 3-5 years where he might have been the best CF in baseball, or at least in the conversation.  And I don't think I ever saw him wear batting gloves.  Imagine 500+ AB's in a year plus God knows how much BP over the course of the year with no batting gloves.  Very manly.  I wonder if he used Moises Alou's special concoction to toughen up his hands. 

[JQV]

I wonder if he used Moises Alou's special concoction to toughen up his hands. 

Or Posada's...


As BaseB13's argument...it seems like IC is just damned if they do and damned if they don't.  First, they only beat non-conference teams because they don't use their front end guys during weekend conference games.  Now, they only beat non-conference teams because they DO use their front end guys during weekend conference games.  I suppose the answer is, I don't have any clue why UR chose to use relievers.  Maybe they should think about throwing their better pitchers against IC so they can:

a) Improve on their 6-47 all-time record against IC (yeah, they have been improving though...right?  right?  well then why have they dropped 8 straight to the Bombers?)

b) Make the playoffs.

As for the Bombers not being able to compete in the LL, I think that is just wishful thinking on your part.  They are 296-71 (.807) all time against those teams.  That is just an accident?  That is all due to some weird theory about relievers and starters that keeps getting disproven in every formulation?

Furthermore, you lost all your credibility when you went to this take:

If Ithaca was in the Liberty League(which would never happen because the conference is designed to have similar academic schools in conference)

If this was an attempt at humor, no big deal, but it is drenched in the stink of snobbery.  I kid the C-State guys about academics all the time, as IC fans do, but for me and most IC people it is just a joke (scuba, pudge, you guys know that...right?) because who gives a crap?  When are talking about baseball (or football, or basketball) why do I care what your SAT score was?  Furthermore, my IC diploma got me into law school and got me a job as an attorney in Tampa.  Sub-standard education?  Guess not.

[BaseB13]

Jose you're totally mis construing my words which would make sense since you are a lawyer.   

a) Rochester threw 5 pitchers because winning that game meant everything to Ithaca and nothing to Rochester.  Whether Rochester wins that game has almost no bearing on if they will be in regionals because Liberty League teams play a 24 game schedule in conference.  The coaches of the LL determined that because the automatic bid was so important, they would essentially forego an at large bid to put more emphasis on the automatic bid. 

b) Making the playoffs for an LL team means winning the conference tournament, which means making the conference tournament, which means starting your best players against conference opponents.

c) You continue to recite records that were mostly made in the 15 and 20 years ago.  You also must keep in mind the scheduling advantage which I discussed.  You seem to get very defensive about the entire situation.  I have praised your schools team, but I've also defended the rest of the regions programs while you seem to think they're second class citizens.  After presenting you with the facts, how things work in region, you want to deny that they exist and continue to post irrelevant statements.  I said if Ithaca was in the Liberty League, theyd be facing each teams 1 - 4 and vice versa.  I also said Ithaca would do very well, but it would not be the cake walk that you speak of because they would not have a scheduling advantage and some of the teams are very competitive.  Please tell me where I said Ithaca would not be able to compete?  I believe I said the EXACT opposite.  I'm glad we know you're a lawyer.. It's all making sense now that you're twisting my words

Finally, there was neither an attempt at snobbery nor humor. If you're familiar with how athletic conferences are set up and designed, they're created so that the schools in the conference are similar.  i.e. SUNYAC is all NY State Schools.  The Big Ten is mostly midwest engineering type schools.  The UAA is a bunch of research oriented institutions.  A conference should have similar schools that will be competing for similar student athletes on an academic basis, "peer schools" if you will.  Simply stated, the academic requirements of the Liberty League are stronger than those of Ithaca, St John Fisher, etc.  This is not an insult.  It's a fact.  Just like Ithaca has an overall better baseball program than most other schools in the region.  If you're insulted by it, then the truth hurts.  However, Ithaca's academic requirements are not inline with schools in the Liberty League.  The same way the Liberty League's requirements are a little weaker than the NESCAC's.  Because of this, Ithaca couldn't be in the Liberty League, so I pointed that out.  I have no doubt that any schools in New York can provide its students with a fine education.  I'm a firm believer that where there's a will, there's a way regardless of what name you have on your diploma, you're a perfect example of that.  However, conferences should compromise schools with similar backgrounds/standards, and I'd argue similar size as well. 
     

[WrongArm]

BaseB13 wrote:   

a) Rochester threw 5 pitchers because winning that game meant everything to Ithaca and nothing to Rochester.

• In order to get an NCAA bid, Ithaca must win the Empire 8 and do well in non-conference games. Every game counts for them. Thanks for making my point. Do you want Ithaca to apologize for playing everyone tough. They even start their best against Utica (see the earlier posts for a refresher). Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.

• I've got to hand it to you though. That's a creative excuse for losing.  Do you imagine that the LL concedes all its non-conference games or just the ones to Ithaca?

• If you don't like losing to Ithaca the solution is simple. Beat them. Otherwise the excuses are just so many sour grapes.

• I've got no connection to Ithaca, but even I found your placement of Ithaca in the LL followed by your dismissing them for academic inferiority, particularly lame and offensive. See sour grapes above.

[BaseB13]

WrongArm, Ithaca does not need to win the Empire 8 to make it to the NCAA tournament.  What are you talking about?  The conference means nothing. Zero.  If Ithaca wins 20-25 games, they are going to the NCAA tournament.  Plain and simple.  Great program but they have a schedule advantage, along with all independent teams.

I'll tell you that the LL throws their top 4 guys against conference opponents and they throw their #5 midweek unless they do not have conference games during the upcoming weekend.  I'll tell you that the SUNYAC does the same thing. 

This has nothing to do with losing or beating Ithaca.  This has to do with Jose stating that New York Region baseball isn't challenging for Ithaca.  I'd completely disagree (See 2005 when Ithaca had a pretty tough time).  I also pointed out that Ithaca has an advantage, along with everyother independent team, when it comes to lining their pitching up.  Therefore I do not think non conference games between independent teams and an automatic bid team are completely indicative of the best team.  If you want to deny this go ahead, be in denial, but it's a fact, and every coach in the region knows it.  I also said I would do the exact same thing if I was the coach of an independent team.  Ithaca has to beat the best teams possible.  LL and SUNYAC teams have to win their conference.  Clearly their goals throughout the season are goign to be different, thus their strategy will be different.  Because of this i was pointing out to Jose that it's not always clear who the better team is from one midweek game.  Jose stated not many of Ithaca's games were worth watching in region.  I'd also agree with him on this.  I'd also say many of them WOULD be worth watching if each team was throwing a pitcher that was comprable in their respective rotations.  For example, last years Ithaca/Rochester game would have definitely been worth attending if Veenema pitched against Sottung for the majority of the game.  But knowing ahead of time that UR would be throwing each guy in their rotation 2 innings would not, on paper, appear to be worth a trip to see.

When we do get to regionals, it is quite clear, Cortland is the best NY team this decade.  And if they don't win the region, it's been a New England team, RPI, or Brockport.  Ithaca has not won the region.  So my final argument is simple.  Many teams in New York have gotten significantly better over the last 5 or 10 years.  Ithaca has stayed the same.  Ithaca is very good.

As for Academic inferiority.. You know what, I thought I was being politically correct by explaining how conferences work.  That's simple fact.  But forget political correctness.  I totally agree with all of you on this part.  Cortland is the best baseball team in the region.  Ithaca is the second best.  I agree with everyone on the board. You guys continue to misconstrue my words.  But if you really want to try to paint me as being "lame" by hating on their academics, you're twisting my words completely.  But I will be honest with you.  Let's call a spade a spade guys.  When it comes to academics, Ithaca is inferior to every Liberty League school.  If it bothers you guys that three LL schools were named to the "New Ivies" list and theyre all ranked in the top 50 for Liberal Arts Schools or National Universities, oh well.  If that hurts your feelings, get over it, this is the real world.  Truth hurts.  This is a baseball forum and I was merely stating that conferences align themselves with peer schools.  If it's ok to say that the whole region for baseball is garbage compared to Ithaca in baseball (which I disagree with), then it's ok to say which schools are academically stronger. 

[WrongArm]

BaseB13...

Ok, you win!

But I don't think coach Valesente got the memo. I'd be happy to email him and let him know that he can stop using his best pitchers in the Empire 8 conference games. Just win 25... I'll pass that along.

If you want him to stop picking on Rochester, you'll have to ask him yourself.

P.S.  Thanks for explaining how conferences work.

[BaseB13]

Hahaha you crack me up.  I take it you went back and actually read all my posts and then you realized you were arguing things that I never said.  I'm glad you're now aware of how conferences work.  Now you must also realize that I wasnt putting down Ithaca.  I'd also encourage you to look over the last few years at the match ups we discussed and you'll see that what I've stated is accurate.  I also could care less if Ithaca beats Rochester.  If you look at all my posts in all of the forums you'll see I am not biased to any one team.  Infact, I was the first to point out that in the LL forum that Rochester is a hot 0 - 10 in the LL Conference Tournament and they haven't emulated the success that had in the late 90's when they were in the NCAA tournament.  I simply call it as I see it.  If you don't think Independent teams have a small advantage when scheduling their pitching against automatic bid conference opponents then you're just in denial.  Ask any coach in the region and they'll agree.  It's the way the system works and I said it a million times I would do the exact same thing.  But don't sit there and try to say a team throwing their #1 vs a team throwing a platoon of pitchers is indicative at all of who the best team is.   

[sjfcards]

I don't know much about the teams that Fisher played down in Florida, but I was glad to see them get off to a 6-1 start. It is a good deal to get down there, and get some games in early. Poblem is they will have to wait several weeks before they get to play again.

When do the other teams start their seasons? I know Stevens has already played.