BB: E8: Empire 8

[AlleyCat]

Why does everyone think IC is so dominant? They haven't been to a World Series since 1994 and most years get to the NCAA tournament on past reputation and hosting each of the past 4 years. A few years back RIT swept IC, had a better record and also beat Cortland and the committee still took IC only on their name. It's about time someone starts looking at other teams in the state and in the Empire 8. Yeah, they have been in the tourney, but obviously can't get it done in the big games. They don't have to put it on the line and play in a league that means something. They don't want to be in a league that has a bid because what they have now is easier. When is the last time Ithaca has won a title that has meant something? 1994!

[BaseB13]

Alley, your missing the point.. RPI, Cortland and Brockport have all been to the World Series this decade out of NY but Ithaca hasn't.  Therefore, Ithaca is better than the rest of the region in baseball and NY baseball is not competitive enough for them.  Don't you see the logic from all the Bombers??

Or wait, we have someone else who can look at the facts objectively.  Your absolutely right about them not wanting to be in a league that means something.  If Ithaca wins 25 games they get in to NCAA's because of reputation alone (Refer to all those championships Jose discussed that occurred in the 80s).  Why would they want to risk their free ride in a conference tournament?  Ithaca is good but some people need to take their bomber glasses off look at the situation more objectively. 

[StarvinMarvin]

The last time RIT beat Cortland was in 2000, that would be eight years ago not a few years back.  Things have changed a bit since then so that's not a great example but point understood.

BaseB13, I don't disagree with Alley's logic or yours in regard to IC.  There's no doubt that what they did in the 80's and early 90's has a major impact on them getting a bid, they have a reputable name.  IC may not have been to the series in a long time but that doesn't mean that they haven't been a dominant regular season team in the NY region, just depends on how you want to define dominant.  I guess I would say that they have been one of the most consistent teams in terms of success.  Every year they basically do the same thing, (25-12 for example) with a decent regional performance.  Yes, many programs have improved in the NY region and competition is as good as it has ever been but teams that want to establish themselves in the region for post-season consideration can't have 25 wins one year and the next year win 15.  For example, Clarkson has a good year and follows it with what they did last year which was terrible.  Every year you can find a team that feels like they should have gotten a bid because they swept IC or beat Cortland or had a commendable record but let's look at their strength of schedule. 

The best teams in each region slip up and lose to teams they shouldn't lose to every year.  RIT, for example may sweep IC but will then go and be swept by Medaille or Brockport will be swept by Oswego for example after beating Cortland last year.  Teams like IC and Cortland will may get beaten here and there but will never have a bad loss followed by another and that's one of the differences in my opinion.  As I said before, if you want to take IC's place then beat them and take care of business during the regular seaosn portion of your schedule so that you're no leaving your hopes of getting a bid up to committee members who may be biased.     

[StarvinMarvin]

Alley, if IC plays in a league that means nothing then why do you want the committee to look at other Empire 8 teams for a bid?  Last year SJF got a regional bid so that's two E8 teams that made it.

[pudge27]

I've long ago lost track of who's on which side of this argument, but I can tell you at the end of the day, nobody cares if it's a 1 v 5 matchup or 2 guys throwing underhand.  If Cortland or IC loses to a lesser team, it looks bad regardless of who's throwing and if an up and coming program beats one of those schools, it's a positive.  I'll agree with Marvin's point:


"When you get into a regional setting, you better be able to roll your #4 and #5 out there with the intent of them keeping you in the ball game."

Back when Ithaca was relevant in May (take it easy Viper, this is just a joke.  No need to show us the picture of all your trophies again.), it used to be the good old IC invitational.  Bombers and 3 other teams that didn't stack up.  Book your tickets.  Now the tournaments are deeper, the comp is better and they'll bring in teams from outside the region.  If you cringe at the thought of your #4 or #5 starter taking the bump, don't even bother showing up to regionals.  To win, your whole rotation has to show up and your back of the rotation guys need to beat a good team. 

[scuba16]

Great point Pudge, look at last yr in the regional final for a great example.
IC in the winners bracket waiting, Cortland, (after getting beat game 2 in extras by Tim Kiely 2-1,  a great arm from Trinity CT who they brought in from Out Of Region) calmly wins its way to the finals.

This sets up Cortland - IC for all the marbles.
Cortland rolls out their #4 or #5 in Ryan Hooper and Jon Rockfeld in game 1 and wins 8-5. IC throws Nick Sottong, on 2 days rest and loses.

Cortland brings back their #2 Georgie Jweid, Jason Hauck and David Limbaugh and wins 9-4. IC threw Jeremy Peters in that game, who had a torn Labrum!

IC never got to their # 4 or #5, rather they brought back Sottung (he threw 69.1 innings last yr) on 2 days and then threw a kid that was hurting pretty bad.
I guess in the end, the game, especially in a double elimination tournament, always comes down to pitching depth!

As far as IC relying on their reputation to get regional bids, look at who has made it to the regional finals a bunch since 1994 and just happened into stacked Cortland teams after stacked Cortland teams. IC is perenially good, very good last year but Cortland has turned into a National Power, Similiar to the IC's of the 80's and early 90's!

[BaseB13]

Starvin and Pudge I agree with basically everything you guys said.  I think Alley was saying that the E8 in baseball is basically just a group of 5 schools that play eachother because the rest of the region is in a conference.  But for NCAA purposes they're all "Independent" schools.  Pudge I do agree with you regarding it doesn't matter as to what pitcher you beat what team with.  I was only pointing that out in defense of teams in the region.  In other words Team A beating Team B by 2 runs when team B throws their #5 and Team A throws their #1 demonstrates that the two teams are probably similar talent wise.  Not that the win didn't mean anything.  In other words, the rest of the region is not as bad as some say.  That was the only reason I pointed out the pitching descrepencies.  Finally, independent teams incentive is to beat the BEST teams possible, not their conference opponents.  LL and SUNYAC teams best interest is to beat other teams in their conference.  This just gives these teams different incentives during the season.  Neither is a better or worse way of doing things, it's just what is best for each school in order to get their type of bids.  That's why all along I said if I was Ithaca I would start my best pitcher against Rochester for example on a wednesday if I was playing Utica on a Saturday.  As an independent team I would benefit far more from beating Rochester than Utica.  Likewise, Rochester would be better off starting their #1 against Vassar on a Saturday and start their #5 against SJFC on a Wednesday because Rochester's bid is determined by the conference even though SJFC isi the better program in this scenario.  

As for tournament play, I believe you'll see most teams throwing their #1 and #2 at some point in the first two games.  For the next two games teams usually throw their #3 and #4.. Maybe not in exact order because maybe the 1 Seed saves their top guy for the first winner bracket game figuring they can get by the #6 team with their #2.  However, by the end of regionals you're seeing 4's vs 4's, 5's vs 5's OR 1's and 2's on VERY short rest which may level the playing field between a top of the rotation guy and a well rested back of the rotation guy.  So I definitely agree you have to have a deep rotation to go far in regionals, especially when it's a 6 or 7 team region or you're coming out of the losers bracket.  However, you'll usually see more consistent match ups because teams are on similar schedules at that point.  

The fact that certain schools in NY are competing for Pool A vs. Pool B bids is going to play a role in how each team strategically uses its players/pitchers.

One last thing, now that New York can be a 7 team region, does anyone else think the regional is blatantly set up to favor the 1 seed?  Seems kinda BS that the 1 plays the Winner of 3 vs 4.  So basically the 1 seed has a leg up in pitching over everyone in the tournament.  I feel like it would have made more sense to have expanded the NCAA field to a number that would have even brackets.  Then again maybe that's the edge a #1 seed deserves... Thoughts?

[StarvinMarvin]

I think that the #1 seed deserves an advantage based on what they had to do in order to earn it.  The NY region is unique because of the fact that it's viewed as a weak region.  Due to this belief some very good teams from the NE region are shipped in that have a good shot at winning their own regional muchless someone else's.  Trinity this past year and ECONN in 2006 are very good examples.  Teams like this can make a first or second round matchup much tougher than originally anticipated because they receive a low seed.  Trinity and ECONN were 5 and 6 seeds respectively I believe, where talentwise they could have easily been a two or three but a team that's shipped in will never be that high of a seed outside their own region.  With that being said, other than a first round bye, Cortland actually had tougher matchups than the two seed IC.  After the bye, Cortland plays Manhattanville who is a very good team, just swept Kean this past weekend.  IC plays Westfield St. who looked like a high school team, I was embarassed watching them play.  Next, Cortland plays Trinity who is as solid a team as they come and very easily could have been the two seed.  They throw Keily who is arguably the best pitcher in the tournament besides Dougher and they end up beating Cortland in a pitchers' duel.  IC plays SJF who probably didn't belong in the tournament, a decent team nonetheless but nowhere near the opponent Trinity was.  IC beats Trinity who is clearly a different team without their #1 or #2 on the mound and advances to the regional final.  The only #1 IC faced is Westfield St's and Cortland faced Manhattanville's best and Trinity's best.  Cortland would have been better off being the #2 seed.  Anyway, Cortland goes on to beat SJF, Trinity and IC twice in a two day period.  Again, the NY region is unique because of the fact that very good teams are shipped into the regional and being low seeds.  They end up being tougher matchups than some of the higher seeds in the tournament.

[scuba16]

Starvin, great point with the C-State-Trinity matchup last year. As soon as kiely didn't throw the 1st game, I knew Cortland was in for a good game in the 2nd round. Look what we got, a 13 inning pitchers duel between 2 of the best in the country!
I think you need to make the NY regional a 6 or 8 teamer with all of the teams being from the NY region. E-Conn is a national power and should have never been sent here 2 yrs ago or Trinity last yr. Westfield State would not even make the Sunyac or LL playoffs, so why did they deserve a bid, let alone a bid from this region.
Last years NY regional field should have included Brockport, who was as good as or better than 5 out of the 7 teams that participated.

What were some of the other teams that everyone thinks could have made the NY region a good 8 team region wit all NY teams. 

[BaseB13]

Of course certain years the one seed can have a tougher road.  I guess I'd just assume that if you're going to expand the field, you expand it to an even number of teams where each region has the same amount. NY isn't the only 7 region team.  I guess the system just doesn't seem logical to me.  As for which teams get in and don't get in.  You have to keep in mind, Brockport as a SUNYAC team competes for a Pool A big, which is an automatic bid.  Obviously you need to win your conference to receive a Pool A Bid.  Ithaca and SJFC and the rest of the E8 are Independents teams.  They compete for Pool B bids amongst other independent teams in the country.  However, I believe they may also be eligible for Pool C bids (correct me if I'm wrong?)  which are "At-Large Bids".  Brockport would have needed an at large bid in order to get in to the tournament.  There are FAR less of these to go around in the country.  Before the tournament field expanded I think there were only like 3 or 4 of these.  This is out Cortland got in to the NCAA's the year Brockport went to the World Series.  Based on how the bids work, SJFC clearly did deserve a bid last year.  Brockport did not because I am sure there were 30+ game winners out there that didn't win their conference tournament but had better credentials (usually to get one of these you need to be a team like Cortland who gets upset in the conference tournament).  Although with the expanded field maybe Brockport should have gotten one?  I don't know but I'm sure we could find out now who got which type of bid.  As for Westfield State being horrible they obviously must have won their conference tournament so therefore they deserved to be there.  We did have two New England teams in the region last year which I do think makes sense.  New England as a region has the most higher educational institutions in the country so they're going to have the most baseball programs.  With New York being a region for one state and being the closest to New England, it makes sense that they get a team or two into our region (these automatic bids have to play somewhere and there's obviously not enough room for all of them in New England).  I think a big reason why you'll see E. Ct. and Trinity get shipped to New York is because of distance.  I believe there is a rule as to how far you can send a team for regionals.  Infact, back in 1999,  Rochester got shipped OUT of NY and had to go play Marietta and Allegheney in the Ohio regional.  So without fully understanding which teams qualify for which bids, it's difficult to say who deserved to be in regionals.  I did think SJFC deserved to be there last year considering the field for Independents had been expanded.  If your a brockport fan I think it's disappointing that the SUNYAC is eliminating the conference tournament.  The conference tournament makes the last few weeks of regular season conference play incredibly exciting.  It'll be kinda boring to follow the SUNYAC if Cortland locks up the one spot 3/4 of the way through the season. 

[StarvinMarvin]

When I said that the NY region is unique I meant it in the sense that I believe it was the only region to have outside teams shipped in which is pretty much a year in and year out thing.  I'm almost positive that 1999 is the last year in which the NY regional consisted of four teams.  Since then it's always been a seven team regional with two NE teams shipped in with the exception being Gwynedd-Mercy from the Mid-Atlantic in 2000.  I 'm well aware of the fact that NY wasn't the only seven team regional and that Westfield St. deserved a regional bid because they did win their conference tournament.  I just hate to see a team like Westfield St. take the place of a Brockport, Oneonta or RIT who are far better teams and would undoubtedly make the regional tournament stronger.  However, the rules are the rules but I don't think that Westfield's conference, the MASCAC, should get an automatic bid.  The MASCAC is a weak conference in my opinion and the second or third place SUNYAC team is far superior to any team in the MASCAC.

In regard to Pool C bids, I believe that everyone is eligible for a Pool C.  This is where your nationally recognized programs like IC or Marietta may stumble in their quest for post-season play but receive one in large part to their name.  I have no facts to back up my statement but it's the final opportunity to get a bid and if it comes down to two very similar teams, the selection committee is more likely than not to pick the team with a recognized name and essentially why the Brockports and RIT's of the world are unable to get into the regional.  BaseB13, you are correct in saying that there are very few Pool C's so it's much easier to pick and defend a nationally recognized program than a trendy pick.

[BaseB13]

Starvin, the NCAA tournament just started 7 team fields 2 years ago.  Prior to that it consisted of either 4 or 6 team regions.  2005 I believe had 42 NCAA Regional participants.  In 2006 I believe it was changed to 53 (This is what allowed new teams like SJFC to get in 2007 or RPI getting an at large in 2006).  There have been years in this decade where there NY was a 4 team regional.  I forget when.  I love the new D3Baseball site but the old odac D3 website made it very easy to  look up past tournaments.  Does anyone know how to access this still? 

While I do agree that there are teams out there that are better than NCAA participants because of which conference they come out of, I think it'd be very difficult/unfair to say that certain conferences are not good enough to have a bid.  For example, I am a big Syracuse basketball fan.  I dont know anyone that would argue that Syracuse is a better basketball team than Cornell.  However, it's quite possible this year that Cornell having won the Ivy League will be in the NCAA Tournament and Syracuse will not.  Obviously teams in the Big East are going to get preference for at large bids over mid majors because they play in a tougher conference.  I believe the same thing would apply to Division III baseball.  A runner up in the Mass State Conference probably doesn't have much of a shot at an at large whereas a runner up in the SUNYAC does.  Although Brockport didn't get in last year, I think in certain years, with similar credentials, they could very well get an at large.  Again some of this could have to do with reputation etc.  Brockport's national reputation may not have been quite as strong as other at large teams because Brockport has only been on the national stage once.  So if Marietta and Brockport are both vying for an at large bid, we all know which way thats going.  It's not perfect but I do think that's what makes March Madness so exciting for D1 basketball and it can be exciting to see a cinderella team make it to Wisconsin once in awhile (Brockport for example).   

[John McGraw]

Ithaca's spring trip to California starts this afternoon. Here's the schedule, it looks a little tougher than usual with the addition of Eastern Connecticut State towards the end of the trip.

March 9 - @ California Lutheran
March 10 - @ Pomona-Pitzer
March 11 - @ Occidental
March 12 - @ #1 Chapman
March 13 - @ LaVerne
March 14 - @ #18 Redlands
March 15 - v. #7 Eastern Connecticut State 10 a.m. (@ Pomona)
                 @ Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 3 p.m.
March 16 - @ Whittier

Ithaca won't play a home game at Freeman Field until April 5. The snow should be melted by then and the second half of the schedule is loaded down with home games.

[JQV]

8-1 win out of the gates for the Bombers.

Box Score here:

http://bombers.ithaca.edu/Sports/baseball/2008/base%20clubox%20030908.asp

[Browneagle64]

Greetings from So. Cal, folks.

I was just stopping by to see if you guys were updated with this weeks big So. Cal Classic tourney that will take place across all S.C.I.A.C school's. However, Mr. J. Mac beat me to it. Here's to hoping that Ithaca survive's against good ball club such as La Verne, Redlands, #1 Chapman and of course my Oxy tigers. Btw, i'm predicting that your Ithaca ball club roughs up the Pomona sagehens. i know, i know, i should be rooting for this club since they are from the SCIAC. However, i honestly believe they wont be able to handle your club. If they do, then i was wrong. If any of you folks are traveling out here, you are in for a nice week. There is no snow, (except for small traces on several moutains.. oh wait, its man made..) and the sky is clear at around 70-80 deg. Great weather for some baseball. 

Ithaca's spring trip to California starts this afternoon. Here's the schedule, it looks a little tougher than usual with the addition of Eastern Connecticut State towards the end of the trip.

March 9 - @ California Lutheran
March 10 - @ Pomona-Pitzer
March 11 - @ Occidental
March 12 - @ #1 Chapman
March 13 - @ LaVerne
March 14 - @ #18 Redlands
March 15 - v. #7 Eastern Connecticut State 10 a.m. (@ Pomona)
                 @ Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 3 p.m.
March 16 - @ Whittier

Ithaca won't play a home game at Freeman Field until April 5. The snow should be melted by then and the second half of the schedule is loaded down with home games.