BB: E8: Empire 8

[BoomerIL]

scuba16.....

Whoa, timeout!!!  I'm not disputing the quality of IC or Cortland's schedules.  I'm just saying that when you look at stats, that is how teams are compared, aren't they, Rochester has played very well this year.  Sure we can dissect every player, every pitcher, and for that matter every play, but you don't know what will happen when two teams meet.  Sure you can speculate, but you really don't know.

Nobody said that Rochester had a tougher schedule than Cortland, or that Cortland played "cupcake" teams.  And your correct when you mention Drew, Case, Wash. U. and Brandeis.  But you forgot to mention Emory.  Check the box score.  Yes, UR blew-it in that game against Emory, as they did against Case, and Brandeis, and Vassar, and Clarkson, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that they have improved considerably over last years team, and others in recent years.  Will they continue to win this year?  Yes, and with a better chance than they did last year.

Why is Rochester getting some recognition these days?  Is it a fluke?  No, not really.  Compare averages from last season and pitching stats and they have improved, haven't they.  Teams make mistakes, and mistakes that can keep them from going on into, or further along in the post season.  If UR makes it to the regional its not because they weren't good enough, schedule or otherwise.  Since everything is based upon stats, wins, loses, etc., who's to say they shouldn't be there.  You probably think that its a bad idea to have 64 teams (excuse me 65) bracketed to play for the national championship like they have in DI baseketball.  Why don't they just hand over the trophy to the #1 ranked team and forget the tournament?

It seems everyone wishes they could have a team like a Cortland, or Carthage, or Trinity, or who ever, and many of you may think that I'm putting the cart before the horse.  I'm not!  And please don't preach to me about how IC and Cortland have played such nationally famous National Championship programs or multiple appearnace World Series programs either.  There are so many factors as to why or how programs continue to be in the spotlight more often than not.  Don't even go there.

I'm sorry if I offended you with respect to Cortland.  I would just love to see that game played, or for that matter any of the other top teams.  Will see what happens this weekend.  If UR gets the chance to play in the post season, I'll be there to see it, win or lose!!!

[shoeless]

Scuba

Cortland would have played rochester if it didn't rain, so using your logic they played far inferior teams.  Comeone.  Rochester has brockport, sjfc, rpi, emory, cortland and ithaca on their schedule.  That ain't bad in addition to league teams.

I don't like defending rochester, but they did have a tough schedule.  it rained.  Ithaca today will be at test. if they have any pitchers left after blowing it defensively for their pitchers against clarkson.

[scuba16]

Boomer,
You said "I think that Rochester's schedule was softer that Cortlands, by how much, who's to say."

And I responded by giving you facts on how much softer U of R's schedule actually was in comparison to Cortland's.
Not a knock on U of R at all, but facts are facts and Cortland played probably the best(if not the best top 2) non-conference, out of region schedule in the country. No one can dispute that, go look at the schedule for yourself and check how many World Series appearances and WS championships each team has that Cortland played this spring!

Shoeless,
If you will read the post again, I was referring to the non-conference, out of region, national D-3 schedule that Cortland played.
Everyone in NY pretty much plays the same teams and its hard not to, there are only so many teams to play! 

[JQV]

Boomer,

Two observations:

1) If memory serves, you have a kid that plays at UR, is that correct?  Did you follow D3 baseball before he got there?  Generally, I think people pick up the D3 game whenever they (or their kid) arrives at school and lack some historical perspective.  I don't mean that as an insult in any way.  When I first got to IC I had a similar problem and I noticed it renewing itself every year with the student media.  It is only natural.  It would be very difficult to have any historical perspective if you weren't tied to one of these schools because you have to actively seek out the information unlike D1.  That said, I think the unspoken theme in the posts about IC, Cortland, and everyone else is that every year someone other than IC and Cortland are the new challenger on the block in NY.  Then, almost every year, it comes down to the same two schools.  There have been anomalies but, if you take a relevant historical sample, you will see the trend I am talking about.  It is the same argument we have on the E8 Football Board.  That is why it is hard for longtime followers of IC or Cortland to take the new flavor of the month seriously until we see some hard evidence that they can play.  It has happened on ocassion in the past (Brockport comes to mind immediately) but not that often.

2.  If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying UR is a good team but has just made some critical mistakes that makes them appear worse than they are...is that correct?

If it is then this looks like a pattern to me:

Check the box score.  Yes, UR blew-it in that game against Emory, as they did against Case, and Brandeis, and Vassar, and Clarkson

How mant games do they need to blow before it stops being evidence that they are improving and start being evidence that they are just good enough to compete and not good enough to win?  (That was intended to be much less sarcastic than it reads).

[BoomerIL]

shoeless....

I agree, if the defensive mistakes continue, its going to be hard to win at all, especially against the teams left on UR's schedule, Ithaca, RPI and St. John Fisher.  I also agree that if you let down your pitching staff with mistakes, or with the lack of run production, its hard for those pitchers to keep you in any games.  They can't do it all.  I think you can say that about any team.


scuba16.....

I'm not questioning the difficulty of Cortland's schedule, and I have seen it.  I'm only saying that given the opportunity of playing teams like Cortland only gives Rochester the perferred experience that its program needs inorder to...a) get better as a program,  b) gain more national exposure by maybe attracting more talent to the school in the future,  c) gaining more credibility with the national pundits,  d) seeing how they stack-up against better teams, and so on.  As I've said in the past, and I'll say it again, UR wants to play top level teams and I'm sure that the coaching staff will continue to do so.  If there program were ranked #1, or #2, or #20, I'm sure they would try finding other top schools to play, but since they are in the UAA and have the annual tournament in Florida that they are committed to play in, they will just have to contend with the weather in New York.  Because of the weather in early March/April, that is why they played Skidmore in Florida.  Sorry if they don't meet your high expectations, but they are trying to get better.

[BoomerIL]

JoseQViper......

Bingo!!!!!!!!!  You understood where I was coming from based upon your first observation, and I'm won't go any further with this subject.  Its right on target.

With your second observation, and it ties into the first, I understand your point and agree with it.  Your team can't be taken seriously if you continue with those types of performances.  I'm not trying to make excuses for UR but they know they need to tighten things up.  Are they just good enough to compete?  I hope not.  I hope their better than that as indicated by their offensive numbers, but have gone down on their fielding percentage.  Pitching is better than last year.

But like all of the banter that goes back-and-forth here on this website about who won how many championships, whether its about the teams from the Empire 8, Liberty League, SUNYAC, or the Skyline conferences, you will always have someone or group pulling for, and defending their school of choice.

I didn't start posting on this site to cause trouble, just to learn about the DIII experience and what its all about in New York.  I'm just as passionate as the next person about baseball, and reading about the history of some of these schools makes you hope that the school your son is attending has a chance at winning games against those heralded programs and could make it into post season play.

[JQV]

But like all of the banter that goes back-and-forth here on this website about who won how many championships, whether its about the teams from the Empire 8, Liberty League, SUNYAC, or the Skyline conferences, you will always have someone or group pulling for, and defending their school of choice.

I love that banter too.  Especially because everyone has a 0 in the championships column with one exception...(attention haters, begin smiting now)

[scuba16]

I love that banter too.  Especially because everyone has a 0 in the championships column with one exception...(attention haters, begin smiting now)

Also love the banter so here I go!

What does IC baseball have in common with these following teams:
1986 mets, 1980 phillies, 1985 royals, 1908 cubs, 1948 indians, 1983 orioles, 1984 tigers etc..
Its been a long time since they won anything!

You weren't even born when IC won the World Series 

[JQV]

You weren't even born when IC won the World Series 

I was alive...but I had never heard of IC.

Besides, I'd rather be the 1986 mets, 1980 phillies, 1985 royals, 1908 cubs, 1948 indians, 1983 orioles, 1984 tigers

than the 1991, 1992, 1996, and 1999 Braves (or, for a more geographically relevant reference, the Buffalo Bills).

[pudge27]

Looks like there are quite a few panties in a bunch on the E8 page.  If I may chime in.  I think that one of the challenges in a school like UR or even Fisher getting a tough out of conference schedule is that fewer of the top schools want to play them.  I'll explain.  Let's use a school like ECONN with a great tradition.  They might be staying at the hotel next door to UR, but won't want to play them because of the risk/reward issue.  Cortland and Ithaca have an easy time scheduling other great teams because there is risk and reward for both.  A top 5 team doesn't have much to gain (yet) by scheduling UR down south, but a ton to lose.  I think it takes a few years of consistent winning locally before you can pick up the phone and schedule one of the big boys.  That being said, dropping games to Vassar and Clarkson won't get you a return call from the ECONN's and Marietta's of the world. 

[JQV]

Tis a good point...+k.

In theory though, the risk for a top tier school should be lower if they are in a different region (like Marietta and possibly EConn)...right?

[BoomerIL]

pudge27....

I agree with your thinking totally.  But Rochester is and has been scheduled to play Cortland and Ithaca anyway.  Maybe CS and IC feel that they will probably beat UR anyway.  Makes sense to me for them to think that way.  And, losing to Vassar and Clarkson was definitely not good.  The new polls show that.

Good points made regarding this.  Sorry to tie-up the Empire 8 Forum with this!

[StarvinMarvin]

Top programs in the country like ECONN and Marietta would and do most definitely play schools like U of R on their non-conference schedule.  Those schools try to play strong opponents on their spring trips but they know that it's necessary to play a team or two where the high risk/low reward concept exists.  If the trip starts going bad or even if it's going well coaches try to throw a cupcake in there, no offense to the schools mentioned by pudge, to get a sure thing win or even to rest some players during the week and get their bench some reps for example.  Go look at any top program and they have teams like U of R or Clarkson etc. on every non-conference schedule.  If anything, the schools that pudge mentioned don't attempt to play the top schools because they know that it's going to take as many wins as possible to get a post-season bid. Those schools know that they might struggle once they get back to their region so where better to get as many wins as possible where you can dictate your opponent to some extent than your spring trip.  sorry pudge but i'm not buying your theory.

[BoomerIL]

To all of you gentlemen.......

I just finished listening to the Rochester vs. IC game on IC's radio broadcast.  I will say it again, UR gave them the game and IC didn't do much better either!!  However, and I say this with much pain, I will not bring-up how, who, what, when, or where regarding UR anymore this season.  They lost in 10 innings, 8-7 when they were leading 7-4 in the ninth.  A great testimony to IC's team!!!!

No further comments will be made by me, so have at it!!!!!!     

[StarvinMarvin]

Boomer, you should most certainly continue to bring up all aspects of the U of R program.  Personally, I have enjoyed all of the debate and discussion.  There's a lot of season left and anything can happen so let's continue on about this great game that we all enjoy!