BB: LL: Liberty League

[VictoryLane]

Boomeril,

i can't take your money.  I just want to gets some good dialog going.  RPI should do it.  Look a the numbers they speak for themselves.

I agree in anything other than a 7 game series anyone can win it.  Cause you don't have to expose all your pitchers.

none the less it should be a fun season, look at what skidmore did last year.  Anyone can win.  It will come down to who is hot.   

So you never anwered my question,  do you have any impact players that are freshmen?

Or are you keeping it a secret?

Haha,
Have a great season

[BaseB13]

StarvinMarvin - Who would you like to see RPI drop from their schedule?  Their non conference games are as good as any team in New Yorks, maybe other than the Spring trip schedule but much of that depends on who is in the same area as yourself.  They play strong non conference schedule.  That's not the problem.  The problem is RPI as a team is usually the deepest as far as arms and bats etc.  They can withstand an injury.  Theyre the only team in the conference with a JV team.  So when regular season rolls around, their 3 and 4 could quite possibly be better than most other teams.  However, their #1 and #2 are not.  It seems every team in the conference tournament can throw out a legit top guy, and thus it's any teams game to win.  I just don't see how if RPI plays Ithaca instead of Williams (not much difference between these two squads IMO), that they'll be able to stop choking in the conference tournament.

VictoryLane - What have the redhawks done for you lately bud?  No one cares that they've won x amount of regular season titles.  Back then, the regular season title didn't mean anything until 2000.  Therefore teams didnt throw their best guys in conference all the time because there wasnt an automatic bid.  No one remembers the team that won the regular season title but didn't win the conference tournament, except for maybe you because that's the only consolation you have walking away from the season.

Over the last give years this is what you get in the LL:

Skidmore - 2 Conference Championships ('05, '07)
St. Lawrence - 1 Conference Championship ('06)
RPI - 2 Conference Championships ('04, '03)

On top of that RPI hasn't even played in the FINALS of the conference tournament since 2004.  And granted they technically won the conference tournament in '03 but they were losing the elimination game when it got called for rain. 

As for regular season titles that you need to cling to see your team can't win the big one, RPI ('03, '06, '07 (failed to even make the finals as the #1 seed)), Clarkson ('04), Skidmore ('05)..

So ya RPI was great in the 90's and won plenty of conference titles that didn't mean much.  But based on the recent facts, and the fact that RPI did graduate some solid ball players where as teams like Rochester and Skidmore graduated pretty much no one, and RPI cannot close the deal, I'd like to know exactly why RPI is such a favorite to win it all this year? Your justification would be like me, as a Yankee fan, saying we're winning the world series this year because we won it in '96, '98, '99, and '00.  Doesn't make sense.  I hope you didn't actually go to RPI because then I'd really wonder what they're teaching you in the class room as far as basic logic.

[StarvinMarvin]

BasebB13, you are absolutely out of your mind if you think that RPI's non-conference schedule is as good as any other team in NY.  Their spring trip is stronger than in past years but they play very few non-conference games and I did give them credit for playing Montclair and Willy P. but MCLA, Williams and Plattsburgh hardly can be considered a strong group on non-conference opponents.  How can you even debate the difference between playing Williams and Ithaca?  When was the last time any of the three non-conference opponents I mentioned were in a regional tournament?  That's the difference my friend.  I'm not saying they have to drop anyone but they should try to play the best teams in their region in my opinion.  They don't travel to play teams in Virgina or Maryland before their spring trip like Cortland for example who is heading to NC and VA this weekend to play NC Wesleyan, Rowan, Mary Washington and Randolph-Macon.  I'll use Cortland for example again when comparing schedules and your claim that RPI's is as good as anyone's NY.  Cortland plays a very challenging schedule on their spring trip with Wheaton twice, College of NJ twice, Hopkins and Willy P.  along with Bowdoin who is a very solid team.  When they come up north their non-conference schedule features Ithaca (regional team) twice, U of R., Manhattanville (regional team), Fisher (regional team),  Montclair twice, Keystone who is very very good, and St. Joseph's (LI) to name a few.  With that being said, there is a major difference between the two schedules.   I've looked at very few teams schedules but Brockport also has a similar schedule in terms of difficulty.  Playing good teams throughout the season, especially those with post-season experience, has a  great deal to do with preparing your team to compete in a regional.  I just think it would do RPI a world of good to play better teams and until they do so I think they will continue to struggle.

[NYBaseball]

RPI definately doesn't really have a strong schedule at all, and i don't know how anyone can argue that.....its a joke they wont schedule ithaca,cortland......2 yrs ago i think it definately helped RPI get an NCAA bid by not having played any of the top tier NY Region teams....but hopefully the new OWP and OOWP will force teams to schedule better teams if they are hoping to being in contention for a pool C bid.  It also helps prepare your team for postseason play by playing a tougher non-conference schedule

[StarvinMarvin]

NY, I couldn't agree more!  I stand corrected on Williams, I believe they were a regional participant last year but still are not of Ithaca's caliber in my opinion.

[BaseB13]

Ok you guys are pretty clueless.  a)  RPI and the rest of the Liberty League HAS to play less non conference games because the LL plays 24 conference games.  This is a liberty league forum so when referring to their non conference schedules I was generally comparing them to the rest of the LL.
We can both agree that if a team goes to florida, it's difficult to control who each team plays because they're dictated by when their spring break is etc.  Unless you'd like to argue that?..

Now you're comparing RPI's schedule saying its not that strong to the rest of the region and then you use Cortland's schedule, the number 1 team in the country, as your comparison.  I'd bet, without looking at most schools schedules, that Cortland's schedule is BY FAR the exception, not the rule.  So if you want to take my statements out of context thats fine, but let's atleast compare RPI's schedule to what most in region teams do, NOT Cortland.   And by the way, are you even aware of the geography of New York?  Driving to Ithaca and Cortland MID week for a capital region team would not be feasible for either opponent.  This is why you see teams like Skidmore, RPI, etc playing New England schools such as Middlebury,Williams, MCLA etc.  But I guess you werent aware that the Albany area is that close to Massachusetts and Vermont?  You definitely don't have a degree from a LL school because I don't think they admit people with so little intelligence in to the high caliber institutions that comprise the conference.

So why don't you instead compare RPI's non league schedule to a handful of teams in region and see how it stacks up.  Then you should remember the 24 game conference schedule the LL plays.  Or wait, would you like to see RPI play Ithaca mid week so Ithaca can throw their #1 against RPI while throws their #5 because their conference games actually MEAN something.  And of course RPI will drive three and a half hours each way on a week day to do this, then drive home and still complete the requirements for their engineering degrees.  Now your statements are REALLY making sense. 

Finally, I will definitely tell you right now that in any given year Williams vs Ithaca is fairly equal.
         Williams                             Ithaca
2007 27 - 10                            26 - 13
2006 29 - 11                            33 - 11
2005 21 - 17                            25 - 15 - 2
2004 30 - 12                            34 - 9
2003 27 - 10                            24 - 12
2002 25 - 13                            27 - 18

I am not saying Williams is always better than Ithaca but I'm going to say over the last five years the programs are damn close.  It just so happens Ithaca makes the NCAA tournament every single year because theyre an independent team in a weaker region.  William has to win the NESCAC tournament which is as strong a conference as any tournament in New York.  And if they don't win it, they need to compete with a lot stronger teams for an at large bid.  So the answer to your question when you say, and I quote "How can you even debate the difference between playing Williams and Ithaca?"  is right above.  There's the difference, and it looks like there's pretty much no difference.  So while you're sitting there being all high and mighty about NY region baseball, I'd remind yourself that regions like New England are probably stronger and teams in other parts of NY play these teams.   You just happen to be completely unfamiliar with them apparently.  Oh and while we're at it, let's not forget Williams has basically a similar record to Ithaca while having Ivy League admission standards over the past 5 years.

[BaseB13]

Starvin, one other thing, over those years you have Williams with a .685 winning percentage and Ithaca with a .678 winning percentage.  And if you want to try to argue strength of schedule there, don't bother. Williams beat teams like Eastern Ct. and Wisconsin Whitewater last year so I'd guess over the last five years they've scheduled some pretty quality opponents.

[StarvinMarvin]

Let me first address the ability of a team to play a solid spring break schedule.  I understand that a team can only play those teams whose break coincides with their own.  However, a head coach can speak to the tournament director and ask to play the best teams available after looking at the list of the teams that will be in attendance.  There's no guarantee that every opponenet will be ranked and I'm not saying that every game should be against an elite program but ask and you will more than likely receive.  Florida used to be the hot spot but Arizona especially, Texas and California have become the destinations of the best programs as of late.  With that being said, I have to believe that RPI has a decent athletics budget and I don't know how much fundraising they do but why not go where the best teams are going?  It might be a bit more expensive to head West but I'm sure they have the funds to go play the best teams possible if they wanted to.  All I'm saying is challenge your team early and as often as possible.  You still haven't answered me as to why RPI doesn't play go play some teams from the south region prior to their spring trip.  Coach Steffen should be on the horn calling teams and scheduling games for this upcoming weekend next year.  Go to Virginia or Maryland and play 3 to 4 non-conference games instead of another weekend of practicing inside or are their engineering degrees going to suffer?  RPI is smart, they would rather manipulate the system by playing an average schedule, rack up as many wins as possible but not go out of their way to play as many quality opponents as possible.  This strategy backfired last year didn't it?  I just think that a coach needs to challenge his players and if that means having to travel a great distance to play one game against a good opponent then so be it.  Resting on your laurels will get you nowhere. 

I understand that the LL plays a 24 game schedule which makes non-conference games tough to fit in but I think RPI should drop MCLA and Plattsburgh to play Cortland or Ithaca as they used to do.  2006 was the first year that Cortland and Ithaca were not on RPI's schedule.  The teams played one time each year during the regular season and alternated who traveled each year and I don't believe anyone failed out of school because of this one trip that took place every other year.  Also, Cortland and Ithaca are not much further of a drive than the distance to Plattsburgh for RPI so there's no reason why it can't be done.  So your statements don't REALLY make much sense.  When RPI and Cortland/Ithaca played, I attended many of those games each year and I don't recall anyone throwing their number #1 because they all have conference games that MEAN something.  Ithaca's may not mean something because their conference doesn't have a automatic bid but the SUNYAC does.  RPI can continue to go and play New England region opponents instead of playing in-region games that could help them assure a spot in the regional if they fail to win their conference such as last year.  I don't need a LL degree to know the difference.     

[BaseB13]

Starvin - I love how you didn't even bring up the topic of Williams and Ithaca because I completely destroyed your agrument.  Now I'll ruin the rest of your logic.  Last time RPI played Ithaca and Cortland in the regular season was in 2005.  Guess what? It was on a Saturday and a Sunday in April.  A mid week drive to Cortland is 3 to 3.5 hours.  Ithaca is even further.  Troy to Plattsburgh is 2 - 2.5 hours.  That's a big difference for a mid week game and I'd bet that this is a big reason they don't play mid week.  Plattsburgh won 25 games last year and 27 games the year before but they're not good competition either right? And you clearly think Williams is garbage even though they've been as good as Ithaca over the last five years.  Plus the NJAC schools they play.

As for the Spring Trip, did you even play college baseball?  Maybe schools like Ithaca, and Cortland don't have to fund raise for their trip and the school just pays for it.  But I know for sure that within as of 3 or 4 years ago Rochester and Skidmore both fundraise to pay for their spring trip.  I would bet that RPI fundraises for theirs too.  Most athletic department budgets DO NOT cover this.  So now you speak of traveling to California and Arizona.  Do you realize the cost difference to go to these places? AZ may be moving up in popularity over the past year or two but this is definitely a new trend.  RPI is going where they always go and they're playing teams that are in the same area.  I don't blame them one bit for choosing to stay in Florida.

Finally, as for driving down to North Carolina and Virginia in the middle of February, I am guessing the students at Cortland will be missing a handful of classes to do this.  They play on Friday Saturday and Sunday.  Im guessing they are leaving Thursday and getting back very very late on Sunday.  I'd also bet that most schools can't get away with this type of travel.  I know for a fact that the LL switched their conference games from Fri/Sat to Sat/Sun because many of the schools could not have their students missing science labs etc on Fridays.  I am sure all of the Phys Ed majors at Cortland don't need to worry about missing class but when you have students going to top tier liberal arts colleges and universities where they're studying to be doctors, engineers, and ceo's it's simply not feasible for students to miss even more class by driving 10 hours to North Carolina the weekend before mid terms.  Let's also not forget that weather can be a big factor, it is risky to travel all that way in mid February.  It's also costly.

I bet if you asked RPI why they don't do it, these would be the reasons.  It's the same reason the rest of the LL doesn't do it.  Cortland clearly has a massive athletic budget, heck they carry 40+ guys on their team. 

Nothing backfired on RPI last year except that they went 1 - 2 in the conference tournament.  Bottom line, they didn't get the job done.  Ask the coaches in the LL and I bet they'll agree that by switching to a 24 game schedule, they decided they'd all rather compete for the automatic bid, and make sure each team in conference gets a legitimate shot at this bid, instead of jockeying for potential at large bids. 

So ya if money were no object I'm sure every team in the Liberty League would be flying to California to play Chapman, Oregon to play George Fox, Atlanta to play Emory, and maybe they'd even stop in Japan to play the Yoimuri Giants..

[anonymous234]

BaseB, I like what you're saying.  You are very well informed.  Teams like Skidmore and Rochester fundraise for their spring trips, and even that doesn't cover everything as some teams don't get meal money out of it or pay for their own tickets.  I know WPI (RPI's cousin in Mass) has their players pay for everything.  Obviously money is an issue for most teams, which definitely hurts where they can go and who they play.  Also, d3 programs emphasize academics, so thats why you don't see them travelling to warmer climates for 4 day weekends.  Also the money comes into play their too.  Kids sleeping 2 to a bed, 4 to a room, when they stay over one night for a weekend series, do you really think the athletic departments are going to shell out money for more trips and longer bus rides and more nights in hotels?  No they aren't.  Obviously playing baseball in New York and the Northeast isn't ideal, but they get the job done.  You have to remember, we aren't d1 programs that shuttle in millions and millions of dollars every year.  Games are free to attend, so there's no extra money there.  Most program money comes from generous donations by alumni.  Starvin, get your facts straight before you try to argue this.  It is not possible.

[BoomerIL]

StarvinMarvin....BaseB13....anonymous.....

I really appreciate the comments, and if you really evaluate what you have posted, many of your comments are in agreement.  Certain circumstances for the individual schools mentioned may apply, fundraising, playing weaker schedules, athletic department budgets, travel distances, academic requirements, etc., etc., have an impact on these schools in different ways.  As an example, being a Rochester parent and having first hand knowledge, the players do all sorts of funding raising fuctions while they are on campus.  That still is not enough to pay for the trips, let alone all of the various uniform components that the team wears.  We still pay hundreds of dollars for our kids to have what is necessary, fundraising included.

Rochester is fortunate in that they belong to the UAA, United Athletic Association.  Schools such as Emory, Washington University in St.Louis, Brandeis, Case Western Reserve, and the University of Chicago have a tournament to start the season every spring in Florida.  Chicago now goes to Arizona.  This year they will play Skidmore there as well, at least guaranteeing four conference games getting played without weather problems, we hope.  Then, because of the close proximity of Rochester to Cortland, Ithaca, Brockport, RIT, and St. John Fisher, non-conference games are played, weather permitting.  So Rochester is fortunate in that sense.

I can see where traveling during the week is rough for scheduling any kind of baseball games, whether against better opponents or not.  And because Rochester plays, in my opinion, a tougher schedule than RPI, or Skidmore, whom ever, you would/should say that Rochester should be at least somewhat better than there conference opponents.  But it hasn't been the case, has it?  Why?  I personally think that there are kids that go to college, and if they can play baseball, are very happy.  Then there is the kid that if "I'm going to college, why don't I go to a college that has a very good or exceptionally baseball program," i.e., Cortland, Ithaca, Brockport, Emory, etc.??   Obviously there are other reasons, or can be, that makes a high school kid go to a particular school.  And, what about the Community or Junior College player, why do they tend to be drawn to the better programs.  Finances also play a big part in these choices.

I still believe that many coaches are, and will always be drawn to making the safe choice.  "Do I play a tougher schedule?"  "Do I go for the better chance of getting in the tournament by winning my conference?"  It is not an easy decision for some coaches to make.  I still believe that by taking the harder road, at times is more rewarding.  Maybe I'm crazy, but I have always liked being challenged myself.  It allows me to judge my performance and set my sights on better things or events.

The games still have to be played, and for every game played, win or lose, some good is always taken away so that you can improve.  That includes playing against better teams and players.

[StarvinMarvin]

Boomer.... thank you for your insight, some very good points.  I'm not necessarily knocking RPI because they are a very good but rather giving personal reasons for their disappointment.  I think we can all agree that Cortland's success is what most programs are striving for and hence the reason for bringing them into the equation.  Ithaca for their continued success, eventhough they haven't been to a WS in sixteen years or so, they were dominant in the 80's and early 90's (two national championships) along with being a so widely recognized in the DIII ranks.  Like Cortland or not, there's a reason why they have success and it's not just because they get good players or Cortland lets dummies into school contrary to what many believe.  Cortland is what is called a "hot school" at the moment and has been for several years in the SUNY system.  This means that because they have so many applicants and turn so many kids away, the state of NY tells them that if they accept the best of the best students and raise the average student profile the more state funding will be given to the school.  With that being said, if you want to achieve the status of a Cortland, I don't think it's a bad idea to try and emulate what they do.  I realize that the academic demands of certain institutions can put a coach into a predicament when it comes to scheduling for example but if you want to be good then you do what it takes to be good.  RPI could very easily schedule games in VA or Maryland before their spring trip without compromising academics.  Leaving on a friday at noon or even two o'clock will get you into playable weather at a decent time the night before competition.  Play a DH on Sat. and a single game on Sun. to start the season and break up the monotony of being inside.  When it comes to athletic budgets, I bet Cortland's budget is less than RPI's.  You don't realize how stingy the SUNY system is and at Cortland the football team gets twice as much as everyone else.  Cortland has a very generous and large alumni who probably double the budget and Coach Brown and his players fundraise their butts off to make money for their trip to NC and VA.  They find the time and energy to do it even though at times it's an inconvenience because they know how important that trip is to their season and they welcome the challenge of playing anyone at anytime in any place.  That's what it takes to be good and i'm sorry if there's disagreement but it is what it is.  How willing and motivated are you to do what it takes to get the most out of your team eventhough there are academic and financial obstacles?  You find a way to make enough money through fundraising or by some other means to make the trips necessary to make your team the best it can be.  Also, it was mentioned that Cortland carries 40 guys without a JV squad so they must have a huge budget but what's the difference if RPI has a JV squad?  That means RPI has 40 or more people total in their program between the two teams.  You guys can keep on using all the excuses you keep providing and RPI will continue to go home early year in and year out.  Keep on crying and making excuses about how difficult it is to be so intelligent yet balance playing baseball along with how little money everyone has to do anything.  Anonymous, I have my facts straight as an arrow and to BaseB13.... put it this way, I was paid money to play the game I love, were you?  Nuff said!

[BaseB13]

I am not particularly a fan of RPI and their program at all.  However, when you post the most illogical statements on this forum to bash RPI I am forced to defend them.  I have NOTHING against Cortland and I pull for whichever NY Region team makes it to the World Series. I have no doubt that Cortland fundraises their butts off and that their players work their butts off.  I would guess that most of the programs we have talked about all do this.  I don't know how you turned this in to us bashing Cortland. Infact, I'd even argue that Cortland could hang with all the division I teams in New York.  Cortland is not so great and amazing because they go to Arizona or because they go to North Carolina.  Cortland has a great program for a lot of other reasons.  RPI is not worse than Cortland because they play some weaker teams either.  I'd say RPI is weaker than Cortland because Cortland has more talented players.  I gave you plenty of reasons why I'd speculate RPI does not schedule the same teams as Cortland.  I'd also challenge you to do a 2 hour radius around Troy and pick out the best Division III programs.  I bet RPI plays those teams Mid-Week.  (Williams(27 - 10), Plattsburgh(25 - 15), William Paterson(19 - 15 -2), Montclair(24 - 18), Castleton (26 - 12), So besides Westbury and MCLA, their northern non conference games seem pretty strong.  Maybe because you aren't familiar with all the teams you aren't aware of how strong their schedule is.  (We know you're not aware of this because you had no idea how good Williams is, you probably aren't aware that Williams is ranked almost every year as the best Division III athletic program in the country on top of being the equivalent to Princeton/Harvard for Liberal Arts Colleges). 

We'll just need to agree to disagree until you learn more about other D3 baseball teams besides the ones Cortland and Ithaca plays.  And let me congratulate you on getting paid to play baseball.  That statement falls in line with the rest of your illogical remarks.  You getting paid to play has nothing to do with your knowledge of Division III baseball in New York, or the Liberty League.  Thank god you were blessed with that ability because we can tell you weren't blessed from the neck up.   

[WrongArm]

StarvinMarvin said:

"When it comes to athletic budgets, I bet Cortland's budget is less than RPI's.  You don't realize how stingy the SUNY system is..."

Don' bet too much, Marvin. Cortland reported spending $96,000 on their baseball team last year... RPI reported $72,000 and Rochester reported $76,000. Check out this government site:
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/main.asp

Unless I'm missing something, the SUNY expenditures for baseball are way higher than most private NY colleges. Brockport spent $52,000 and Oswego spent $60,000. Compare those expenses with those from Vassar, St. Lawrence and Union. Vassar, for example, spent only $19,000.

Without athletic scholarships, in order to attract the best players, schools have to demonstrate a commitment to their baseball programs. That means coaching continuity with respected, accomplished coaches, first class facilities, and an ambitious schedule. That means m-o-n-e-y!

Here's another example. Ithaca College, mentioned a few times in this thread, reported spending $98,000. Is it any mystery that they kick the crap out of Utica every year? Utica spends a whopping $14,000.

A successful baseball program is a synergy of many factors. Certainly, a charismatic, enthusiastic coach might attract some outstanding players in the face of institutional indifference, but in the long run, money talks.

[BoomerIL]

WrongArm....

Trust me, our family and the other families helped out with that Rochester number!!