BB: LL: Liberty League

[jdex]

  Just a hunch here, but a pretty good one .....we bet.

  A portion, a very large portion, of those 96-Gs arrive from sources other than SUNY. Know Cortland really does bust butts in fund-raising endeavors. They run clinics and camps galore, and have a mighty alumni backing.
  Strive for success and work hard at it!

  Plenty of good thoughts expressed here by all .......until the closing personal attacks. Could do without, yes?

[BoomerIL]

jdex.....

Couldn't agree with you more regarding the personal attacks.  No "one" opinion is better than any other.

[BaseB13]

That site is very informative.  I do wonder how accurate it is.  I have a feeling it does not include any fundraising (But I could be wrong).  Those numbers appear to be the operation/budget expenses of each athletic department. 

Clarkson - 45,000
Skidmore - 62,000
St Lawrence - 27,000
Union - 36,000
Vassar - 19,000
RPI - 41,000
Rochester - 76,000
Cortland - 96,000
Ithaca - 98,000
St. John Fisher - 63,000
Brockport - 53,000
Plattsburgh - 68,000
Oneonta - 23,000
Oswego - 60,000

At first glance I wonder if each school calculates their number equally.  For example, St Lawrence has a budget of $27,000 (seems low) for a school that has amazing facilities and just built a very nice field.  I can see how Vassar's budget is only $19,000.  I don't think it's surprising at all that Cortland and Ithaca's budget is the highest, they carry a lot of guys and they travel the most.  This means more meal money, bus expenses, hotel expenses etc.  Oneonta's budget also seems very low.  I would have thought RPI's would be higher too.  It's also interesting to see which schools on average pay their coaches more and have more paid assistant jobs as well as the recruiting budgets (although difficult to compare from school to school).  Good information.  Thanks WrongArm.

[anonymous234]

I also find it interesting that St Lawrence has such a low number since their facilities are so amazing.  However I do know they don't bring their whole roster to Florida, and I think the players pay for most of the trip.

[WrongArm]

BaseB13,

I wouldn't be surprised if everyone counts the money a little differently. Contributions from alumni and others would be reported as revenue, but the web site doesn't break out revenue by sport (except for football and basketball, though specific reports are downloadable). I was having fun for a while, I'm not an accountant and all these numbers are giving me a headache.


BoomerIL said:
"Trust me, our family and the other families helped out with that Rochester number!!"

...as I'm sure the families of D3 baseball players from around the country are doing too.

[Bob Maxwell]

Very lively interesting discussion here... with some very good information and opinions.

I agree with jdex and boomer that the small petty personal shots are not needed to support either side of this discussion and take away some of the points on both sides.  As they said, no one opinion is better then anohter.

As I said, very lively and interesting... There are a couple points that I want to make to be sure we all are on the same page.

1) with regard to in-region games... for teams along the I-87 corridor at the east end of New York state.  There are dozens of schools who are in the New England region that are within 200 miles of the New York schools so they are considered in region games for them (i.e since you've focused on RPI in your discussion, from RPI to Boston area is less the 200 miles so almost all of the NE teams are in region games for them).

Same is true for teams in the New Jersey area for teams south of Albany... (i.e. From RPI to Montclair is only 144 miles) so while these games are out of region for many schools in NY they are in region for many others.  Also, Some schools in central NY can get in-region games in the New Jersey area using the 200 mile criteria.  Montclair is in region for Cortland (194 miles) while it isn't for Ithaca (202 miles)... (mileage based on the NCAA chosen site mappoint.msn.com)

2) It costs almost the same amount to fly to Arizona as it does Florida... from Buffalo you can easily find fares to both around $325. so the costs is not as big an issue as where the coach wants to go and what schools they are looking to play.

To all involved, very interesting reading... thanks.

[WrongArm]

Bob,

I know this is a LL thread, but when you mentioned New Jersey, I thought of the new addition to the Empire 8, Stevens Tech. They have announced a pretty tough non-conference schedule. But I find ironic that Albany to Hoboken is 150 miles (by Google maps), an in-region game for teams in that area, yet every conference opponent is over 220 miles away with Ithaca the closest. That's a lot of driving.

[TRhit]

Another thing to keep in mind is the player pool various schools have to pull from--all the programs do not have the same academic standards ---I am not saying this is a good or bad, unfair or fair  thing , just that it is a fact of life---nor do all schools have the same yearly costs----all of this has to be factored into the picture

[Ralph Turner]

Bob,

I know this is a LL thread, but when you mentioned New Jersey, I thought of the new addition to the Empire 8, Stevens Tech. They have announced a pretty tough non-conference schedule. But I find ironic that Albany to Hoboken is 150 miles (by Google maps), an in-region game for teams in that area, yet every conference opponent is over 220 miles away with Ithaca the closest. That's a lot of driving.

Greetings Wrong Arm,  glad to have you on the boards.

The In-region thing must be viewed in some contexts.

1)  Colleges have aligned into conferences to reflect peer institutions, from the Ivy Group to the Big Ten (sic) to the Liberty League to the NAIA Sunrise Conference.

2)  In the NCAA we have seen the strengthening of the conferences to accomplish the goals, especially in student-athletic competition.

3)  Locally, the conference allows the schools to define their peers.  Out of the all of the schools that the members of the Upstate Collegiate Athletic Association, oops Liberty League, identified as peers in its desire to expand, they saw Stevens.  Stevens is worth the drive, but St Joseph's of Long Island isn't.  Neither bad nor good, just the way it is.

4) In border areas, across regions, the 200-mile radius (3.5-4.0 hour drive) was added to help those border issues.  Minimizing missed class time was a concern, but you have to put a limit on it somewhere.  (We have states, don't we.    )

The key to this is that the LL presidents decided that Stevens had value as a LL member.  Going back to an identity/mission/vision concept, we get the bases for all of these conference issues.

The fact that there is so much objection to the D-III/D-IV issues (see the Future of Division III discussions) tells me that these conferences like their composition.


Welcome!   

[pudge27]

Ralph,
    You mentioned breifly the DIII-DIV issue.  I've only read one article about that, and it wasn't clear how it would be broken up.  The thread that you linked seemed to talk alot about athletic success leading to increase in applications, therefore more $$$ for the school.  I assume that most states arent' far off, but in NY, I feel like it's likely the cost of many of the private schools that have led to an increase in state school applications more than athletics.  Can anyone give me the Cliff's notes on this D IV issue?

[Ralph Turner]

Pudge27, that is part of the confusion.

Some people want to split, some people want to change and a few people seem to want to lead a movement, but they cannot find 150 close friends to follow.

The D-IV issue is one attempt to handle the growth and the diversity of D-III.  Those are real issues, but everyone who is in D-III seems to be very happy with the decision to be D-III!  I know that my alma mater is going thru its Golden Years of success using the D-III model.

My cynical side thinks that the "Diversity" crowd has found themselves in a group that is too diverse!

Please keep reading the Future of D-III message board.  We have an excellent group of contributors who find pertinent links and documents that help us fans follow the developments at the top of the NCAA.

[Bob Maxwell]

WrongArm

Yes, you hit on one of the things that is difficult to figure out when it comes to conference affiliations and in region games.  It will be interesting to see if Stevens is put in the NY region or stays in the Mid-Atlantic region for the 2008 season.  Either way, I think all of their conference games are considered in-region games...

The teams from downstate NY - draw an arc from Albany to Binghamton - have a lot of teams that are in New England and New Jersey that can be counted as in region games.  But as pointed out by I think Boomer... the teams in central NY and the Rochester area have a lot of teams in their area of the state that are short drives.

So as Ralph points out... the committee had some discussions to deal with the rregional border issue and proximity and made a decsion that well works for everyone. 

TRhit,

Very good point about the pool of players available to different teams.  You were talking about academic standards and costs... but anohter thing is the sheer number of players within a 2 hour drive of a campus.  Also, the number of schools in a geographic area.  Take Rochester for example... it is a small city, yet has 4 D-3 baseball schools with good baseball programs within 20 minutes of each other.  With several others within an hour or two drive.  So there is a lot of competition for those players.

[BoomerIL]

This may be a question that has been presented before somewhere on this web site, so please excuse me asking......How were the New York conferences originally set-up, SUNYAC, Empire 8, Liberty League, etc.?  Who determined which schools feel into which conference?

[pudge27]

BB13,
   You mentioned in an earlier post that one of the reasons that RPI's schedule is not as difficult as in years past is cost and the other is that their players are all future Doctors, Lawyers and CEO's.  RPI is a great school, no doubt.  But from a financial perspective, can't they get some of those doctors, lawyers and titans of industry to kick in a few bucks to send them on a more compettitive spring trip?  I know that most of the schools in upstate NY rely heavily on Alumni contributions in addition to fundraising and school contributions. 

To be fair, if they are going to put all their eggs in the basket of winning their conference tournament, that's fine, but I don't think that RPI still has the laurels to rest on to get an at large bid by winning 24-28 games and no league title. 

[BaseB13]

Pudge, I am not saying RPI should or shouldn't go to Arizona or anywhere else for that matter.  However, this trend to Arizona is relatively new, the last year or two if I am not mistaken.  3 or 4 years ago teams were not going to Arizona in droves.  Bob had mentioned the cost is relatively the same to go to Arizona as it is to Florida.  After checking flights from Albany to Tampa and Albany to Phoenix I did not see that the cost is the same.  I saw a 40 - 60 dollar differnece, which multiplied by 30 people is close to $2,000 buxx.  Maybe this has nothing to do with RPI's decision but I can tell you that I have heard from coaches in the confernece that cost IS an issue in going to Florida instead of Arizona.  Second, when the Liberty League switched to a 24 game schedule, the coaches of the conference as a whole made a decision that because of the importance of the automatic bid, they'd rather have more emphasis on conference play.  This schedule HELPED teams like RPI who have more depth year in and year out.  It prevented other teams from throwing their much stronger #1 and #2 against RPI and the other top teams.  In other words, a team could get a stronger seed in the conference tournament if they lined up their pitching properly.  Now every team faces every other teams 1 through 4.  This will supposedly give a better indication of the best teams.  I would bet RPI was one of the teams IN favor of this switch.  However, having 12 regular season games against three teams with records of 10 wins or less is not going to cut it when it comes to at large bids in my opinion.  I think regardless of who their non conference games are, because 60% of games are in conference, it's going to make it very difficult to get an at large bid unless any LL team wins 30+ games. RPI is probably the only team that would ever get serious consideration because of their past reputation. Let's call a spade a spade here, NY region baseball is probably considered one of the weaker regions in the country.  At the end of the day RPI's non conference schedule up north is as strong as it could be given the scheduling circumstances.  Again, I'd challenge anyone to find better teams for them to play within 2 to 2.5 hours.  Finally, let's be serious here, RPI hasn't even made it to the finals of the Liberty League tournament in 3 years.  That doesn't sound like a team that deserves to be in regionals anyways.  Other teams have started to catch up to RPI, and in the region, Ithaca and Cortland.  It's now the norm to have full time head coaches at the helm of almost all DIII programs.  This was not the case 7 or 8 years ago.  Rochester's first full-time head baseball coach is Coach Reina.  I believe this is also the case at Skidmore.  I'm guessing in the 90's when RPI was so dominant, they were probably the only team in the conference with a full time coach.  (Heck St Lawrence's coach is a professor at the school still I think).  I think RPI is no  longer dominating in the conference because other programs are as serious about running a top notch program and are finally catching up.  I don't think it has to do with their schedule, which only changed when the conference started playing 24 games.  I think the fact that people continue to talk about RPI, when in three years they haven't been the conference representative is a shame.  It sounds as if teams are blaming RPI for not making it, instead of giving credit to up and coming programs like Skidmore.  And FYI, I noticed StarvinMarvin said Cortland probably wouldn't be playing against NC Weslyean tomorrow in another forum because of weather.  Would really suck to spend all that money, miss all those classes, just to drive down to NC in mid February and not play.