BB: LL: Liberty League

[dom]

Lot of bashing of Union & Vasser.  For the record, over the past 3 years, Union went 5-6 against SUNYAC.

[dom]

Allow me to be more precise.  For all years available on LL website:

                  W    L
Oneata       2    6
Fredonia     1    0
N.Paltz        4    1

                   7    7

[BoomerIL]

Seems as though Boomer is a little sensitive about UR this year and rightfully so.  There are 2 points that you should keep in mind though. 

-UR was sitting pretty mid season and just didn't close.  You can't give the selection committee a reason to NOT take you.  Tucking your tail in a conference tournament when you're on the bubble is that reason.

-Part of your reasoning seems to be that everyone else has flaws and that we're picking on Roch.  You referenced Cortland a few times.  They may be down a bit this year, but the bottom line is that the SUNYAC's came to town and Cortland buried people---didn't give someone a reason to not take them.  U of R did. 

As I read this, I guess those may be the same reason, but boy is it true.  And if we all knew how much pull John had on the selection committee, we probably all would be nicer to him on the boards. 

Couldn't agree with you more!!  Yes I'm a bit sensitive, and I still feel that unless Rochester wins the games they should, strenghtens their schedule, or wins the LL tournament, they will never get a Pool C spot.

John knows a heck of a lot more about baseball in New York or DIII ball for that matter than I ever hope to.  I respect him for that knowledge, and I will challenge his thinking or assessments of a team.  I'm trying to learn as I go, and have said this before.  I would like too think that he has no bias against a team, coach, or parent.  If John is that type of person, so be it.  I just got ticked-off at several of his comments.  I know he gave his evaluation of UR before with some positive feedback.  I'd love to sit with him some time, and pick his brain about the upstate New York teams.

Am I back pedaling on my comments, no I'm not trying to.  Maybe I don't realize that the Liberty League is a weaker conference.  But I've taken comments made in conversations with parents from other schools about other teams in the area or region, and tried to piece together who the real teams are.  Are they capable of beating teams outside New York?  Absolutely!!  Living in the Chicago area I've seen a number of games the past few years, and I don't see any difference in talent.  Maybe your right, they needed to close a few more games to gain access to the post-season!!!

[John McGraw]

If I had any pull with the selection people, I'd have made New York an eight-team regional. I'm not at all thrilled with the six-team bracket that's been place at Farmingdale.

[airball55]

Lets have some fun with this LL vs. the yac.  Since the turn of the century (a nice sample size) this is how I would personally rank the NY region Sunyac and LL teams only

1. Cortland (far and away)
2. RPI (Far and away)
3. Brockport
4. Oneonta
5. Tie Clarkson and Rochester (CU early, Rochester a but more recent)
7. Plattsburgh
8. Skidmore
9. St. Lawrence
10. Oswego
11. New Paltz
12. Union
13. Vassar

Number 1 and 2 are easy.  Oneonta plays a god awful schedule early and although they are talented just pack it in late for some reason.  Too many games against Medaille and Baker (who I never heard of before this year).  Thats why Brockport jumps them, and they have a would series appearance.  Clarkson was tough all the way up to 2006 and have really only one down year.  U of R (see Oneonta) but they do play in the UAA's which is pretty strong.  Platts/Skid could be flipped, St Law. has a tourny appearance and then there is a huge drop to Oswego and New Paltz.  Then anothe monster drop to Union and Vassar.  Union has one conference tourny appearance back in 04 I think.  This is meant as no disrespect to Union, a part time coach just isn't going to get it done and Vassar is one of the toughest schools to get into.  This leads me to my next point.  The SUNYAC should be a bit better!!!  Less academic restrictions and obviously a much easier entrance policy.  Add to that the price tags of the liberty league ($42000 and up) and there you go.  The financial aid argument does not apply here, there is a reason these schools struggle in athletics, after all this isn't the NESCAC (full need!!).  Critique away

[anonymous234]

First of all, a question: how does the selection process work in terms of a 6 team regional vs. an 8 team?  Why didn't New York just have an 8 team regional that could have included Rochester and/or other teams?  Seems to me like it would make sense to give more teams a chance than just six teams if 8 is a possibility.

Second, how did you compile that list airball?  Winning percentage?  Records against other teams?  NCAA appearances?  I ask because Skidmore has 2 NCAA appearances in the last 4 years, which is more than can be said for Clarkson, Rochester, and I'm assuming other teams ahead of them.  Rochester might have better records recently, but not as much success.  Also, St. Lawrence has one NCAA appearance and 3 or 4 Liberty League Finals appearances, once again better than Rochester and Clarkson.  Finally, Skidmore is 4-2 against Plattsburgh in the last 3 years, yet Plattsburgh is ranked higher when they haven't even won a SUNYAC tourney game until this year, where Skidmore and St Lawrence have 2 and 1 TITLES respectively.  I admit I don't know much about SUNYAC teams other than cortland, but I think you could say Clarkson/Rochester/Skidmore/St. Lawrence all average out depending on how you look at it (overall record, NCAA appearances, success in LL tourney) and thus should kick Plattsburgh down, giving something like:
1.  Cortland
2.  RPI
3.  Brockport/Oneonta (not too familiar with either team, but how many NCAA appearances do they have?)
4.  Skidmore/Clarkson (based on NCAA appearances, which I think is most important)
5.  St L
6.  Rochester etc. etc.

[d3baseballnut]

The committee suposidly selects all the Pool C and B teams first, and then determines the regional formats of each based on the location of the teams selected.

That being said, I dont understand why Washington and Jefferson couldnt be in NY (closer to them than salisbury) as well as TCNJ placed in NY. Hopkins could be brought from the south into their right regional (mid atlantic), and you have an 8 team ny regional.....that is what makes most sense.

The committee may like to shift up the 8 vs. 6 team format for different regionals. New york was 8 and south was 6 last year. The committee switched them

[dom]

I do not begrudge anyone their opinion.  However . . .

Airball states that he is knowledgable because he is a "coach in the LL."  He then proceeds to proclaim in a public forum that "Union and Vasser just stink," and in comparing them to all teams in both conferences, their talent level is "another monster drop."

Anyone knowledgable about athletics knows that you are as good, or bad, as your record.  Curious, I looked up the W/L record.  When presented with the cold hard facts, U went 7-7 vs. SUNYAC since 03-04, most sensible people would move on. 

Not Airball.  He then takes a backhand swipe to defend his remarks despite the .500 record by attacking the legitimacy of the U program and the coach, by asserting that he is just "part-time," and Vaaser is inferiour because Vasser's academic standards are so much higher [than the other LL schools].  I think that most, if not all off the LL schools believe that they compete with Vasser in the classroom.

I am sure that Airball has some good qualities.  However, it is clear that ntelligence is not one of them.

[airball55]

Ah a Union player on the site.  Union had a decent squad back early in the decade when Coach Reynolds was the full time guy.  they had a nice pitcher too on the team Chris Hartnett.Nice kid too.  I believe the Angels gave him a shot.  This is a discussion board, no hate coming from me, just stating fact.  I would love to see what Union could do with a full time coaching staff and recruiting dollars.  Albany is a hot bed for high school talent.  I will take back "stink", and replace it with below average.  Union the last four years, 13-20, 8-19, 8-24, 9-25.  I am sure the Head man there is a great baseball guy, but the school doesn't really put a lot into baseball which is sad because that could be a great place with the location and opp. for two sport players.  I am long gone from coaching in the LL (former UCAA).  I apologize for the "stink" comment but the numbers speak for themselves.  Don't take it so personal man, I would love to see Union get better, and get a full schedule in.  27 games two years ago, ouch.

[John McGraw]

In regards to Union, I think their new facility at Central Park is going to help recruiting. I don't think Union is going to turn things around right away but that beautiful new field in Schenectady won't hurt.

[BaseB13]

The whole SUNYAC vs. LL debate is always a great one.  Now that SUNIT is not in the conference it evens things out with 7 teams each.  The SUNYAC did have 6 20 game winners although I don't know who each of those teams are playing.  With the 24 conference schedule for the LL it makes it difficult for the SUNYAC teams to schedule many quality opponents.  Which brings up a good point.  There is a reason why the LL and SUNYAC dont play a lot of games against eachother anymore.  It's because LL teams really only have room to play midweek games against other teams.  This means they have to play teams within close proximity (less than three hours).  That's why UR can play Brockport and Cortland.  Skid/RPI play Plattsburgh.  Clarkson SLU play Oswego, etc.

I'd say SUNYAC teams are probably deeper overall based on a simple numbers game.  Their academic standards overall are easier than LL's and they cost less.  Therefore their "product" is more appealing to a large amount of students.

Every year it it changes as to who is better.  The past couple years I'd say maybe the SUNYAC was better because Cortland was so dominate.  This year I'd say the LL was better.  '03 I'd say the LL was better.  '04 the SUNYAC.  '05 the LL.  '06 SUNYAC,  '07 the top 4 teams were both solid for both conferences but Cortland was so good in the regular season we can give them the nod.  '08 same could be said for also.

As for the 6 or  team regionals.  As someone mentioned it all depends on who gets the nod.  And making NY an 8 team regional would not have meant more NY teams would have been selected.  The pool C bids are made on a national level.

As for Union going 7 - 7 vs. the SUNYAC.  Big whoop how they do against the SUNYAC.  The past 5 years they have been abysmal in conference.  They had some decent squads prior to that but the program has regressed big time since 2004 or so.

[dom]

It's not big whoop.  It's about posters who asserted that U was not even competitive in SUNYAC  or that U and Vasser were so much worse than the bottom of the SUNYAC conference that it proved SUNYAC was superior.  All one has to do is look up each team's record because they do have interleague play.

[airball55]

you know what else hurts the LL "weaker teams" is the four game series.   I like the four game series, matches the best four starters from each team, pitching depth becomes an issue.  It would be interesting if the Sunyac did that as well, then the Oswego's, New Paltz's etc.. would get Cortland four times on a weekend the same way Vassar gets RPI four times.   This format can help the record (see RPI, U of R) or really hurt it.  Midweek games are hard to judge interconference, especially with the pool B teams in the region who play these games like conference games.  I know we haven't spoke of the Empire 8 but the concept is similar.  Gotta save those arms for the conference weekend games.  Nothing like playing Ithaca midweek and running into their one or two on the hill when YAC or LL teams or rolling a midweek guy out.  Don't like the LL chances this weekend.... thoughts??

[BoomerIL]

you know what else hurts the LL "weaker teams" is the four game series.   I like the four game series, matches the best four starters from each team, pitching depth becomes an issue.  It would be interesting if the Sunyac did that as well, then the Oswego's, New Paltz's etc.. would get Cortland four times on a weekend the same way Vassar gets RPI four times.   This format can help the record (see RPI, U of R) or really hurt it.  Midweek games are hard to judge interconference, especially with the pool B teams in the region who play these games like conference games.  I know we haven't spoke of the Empire 8 but the concept is similar.  Gotta save those arms for the conference weekend games.  Nothing like playing Ithaca midweek and running into their one or two on the hill when YAC or LL teams or rolling a midweek guy out.  Don't like the LL chances this weekend.... thoughts??

I agree with your statements.  I've felt for a long time that those mid week games and the four on the weekend really test your pitching, especially your relief guys.  It is fortunate though that Rochester schedules games against Brockport, Ithaca, and Cortland during the season.  Beating them only helps your chances and credibility of getting into post season play should you not win your tournament.  Rochester had their chances this season with those three teams and only came out on top against Cortland, a good win for UR considering they have had weather issues the last few years and didn't play them.

I also agree with a statement BaseB13 made.......I'd say SUNYAC teams are probably deeper overall based on a simple numbers game.  Their academic standards overall are easier than LL's and they cost less.  Therefore their "product" is more appealing to a large amount of students.......because these schools have had good performance records over the years, so the better players tend to want to go there.  I know this is going to sound amusing, but because of Rochester's winning success the last few years, they are and have attracted some very good talent that played this year, and have some very good recruits coming in for the 2009-2010 season.  Only time will.

[brewcrew17]

Hi all,
First time poster, long time reader. As a (now) former player at Vassar I would like to echo previous comments in the Sunyac/LL debate. I think the bottom of the LL is just as good as the bottom as Sunyac basically every year I've been at Vassar (and thats a lot of losses). We play New Paltz 3 times a year (2 in the spring, 1 in the fall) and the games are always competitive and about .500, and we almost always see a top-3 pitcher while we throw one of our bullpen guys or staff the game out. As the top of Sunyac, we played brockport two years ago for the first game of the year so it was hard to judge just how good they were but I believe they finished well. The two biggest difference I see are the numbers game and the acceptance rates. New Paltz cuts something like 10 to 15 guys each year and other Sunyac teams have jv teams we have only started making cuts this year. The acceptance rates at Vassar are really on a different level than any team in the LL let alone the Sunyac and comparing Vassar to Nescac schools, we have no slots so it makes it even harder to recruit.

Also talking about today's clarkson game, I have no idea why they started Bittner who I gathered to be their 4 starter when we played them. If the coach didn't want to start Pitkin because Cortland had seen him already then he should have started Goerlod who is one of the best junk ball pitchers that the LL has got.