BB: LL: Liberty League

[BoomerIL]

I am a Liberty League guy but as much as I like the Boomer man, three straight shutouts against a Clarkson team that does not field all that well, isn't bad luck and line drives right at guys (they lost their starting SS, Clarke just before that weekend).  I love Coach Reina, class act but the ole' Jackets just don't seem to play well after May 1.  I thought their best shot was last season with Mcanearny (spelling, sorry).   I do agree though that they would have competed, they always play close games.  Seeing a guy the second time should have been an advantage for them.  And knowing John he did believe they had a solid club but you can't gage a team by head to head wins anymore out of conference... Cortland smacked Clarkson in Florida but had played ten games and the Knights only had 2 (Cobleskill, yikes).  That's why we love the game on here and I do hope that the next LL regional team that hasn't been in a while will be the Jackets, but they have to break that post season curse or whateve it is.  Wouldn't it be great to see an RPI Clarkson final in the regional.

You are correct when you say they don't play well after May 1st.  They went through a similar thing last year, and even hosting the tournament with a "home" crowd didn't help.  I would love to see (it's killing me to say this   ) an RPI/Clarkson final.  But of course, like with my Cubs, if they can't win, I still pull for the National League.

[BaseB13]

Well I think if there is any year for an LL team to make it to the World Series for the first time since 2003, this is the year.  A 6 team regional and Cortland and Ithaca are down this year.  I think this regional shows that any of the top 4 teams in the LL (and maybe even 5 because SLU wasn't terrible) would have been able to "compete" in this regional.  I think both Skidmore and Rochester could easily be sitting in the same boat as Clarkson right now. I think they both split with Clarkson during the year.

As for John's comments about Ithaca joining the Liberty League??? I hope that rumor is completely false.  In my humble opinion, adding Ithaca to the conference will diminish the academic prestige of the conference.  I don't consider Ithaca a peer school of the LL teams which means they have no business being in the conference.  Every school in the LL besides Clarkson has acceptance rates below 50%.  Ithaca accepts a whopping 75%+. 

Also, I don't know how a 4 game conference schedule would work with another team.  Doesn't even seem to be room for another team.  If they had to take an eighth I'd try to force Hamilton to get back in for baseball since they're in the conference for every other sport.

Also, I don't even see why Ithaca would want to jointhe LL for baseball when they get an automatic bid every year.  Maybe other sports it makes sense but for baseball I just don't see how it does.

[John McGraw]

Well I think if there is any year for an LL team to make it to the World Series for the first time since 2003, this is the year.  A 6 team regional and Cortland and Ithaca are down this year.  I think this regional shows that any of the top 4 teams in the LL (and maybe even 5 because SLU wasn't terrible) would have been able to "compete" in this regional.  I think both Skidmore and Rochester could easily be sitting in the same boat as Clarkson right now. I think they both split with Clarkson during the year.

As for John's comments about Ithaca joining the Liberty League??? I hope that rumor is completely false.  In my humble opinion, adding Ithaca to the conference will diminish the academic prestige of the conference.  I don't consider Ithaca a peer school of the LL teams which means they have no business being in the conference.  Every school in the LL besides Clarkson has acceptance rates below 50%.  Ithaca accepts a whopping 75%+. 

Also, I don't know how a 4 game conference schedule would work with another team.  Doesn't even seem to be room for another team.  If they had to take an eighth I'd try to force Hamilton to get back in for baseball since they're in the conference for every other sport.

Also, I don't even see why Ithaca would want to jointhe LL for baseball when they get an automatic bid every year.  Maybe other sports it makes sense but for baseball I just don't see how it does.

From what I hear it's basically a done deal for Ithaca, RIT and Nazareth to be jumping ship for the 2010-2011 school year. If you dislike Ithaca so much, you're more than welcome to have your school form a league with St. John Fisher, Hartwick, Alfred etc. etc.

[Ralph Turner]

That announcement should come out in the next 3 months.

[BaseB13]

Don't think I ever said I disliked Ithaca John.  I believe I said they're not a peer school with the rest of the Liberty League which is the case.  They do not compete for the same students on an academic basis.  If that hurts peoples feelings than they should make their academic standards more rigorous.

[WrongArm]

Don't think I ever said I disliked Ithaca John. 

You never miss a chance to dis Ithaca. You've consistently complained that Ithaca's schedule is too soft, that they're overrated, that they always get a "free pass," and on and on.  If Ithaca joins the Liberty League, there'll be no place for them to hide anymore. I'd have expected you to be glad about that. Instead all I see is bitching about acceptance percentages. Afraid of the gym teachers?

Athletic conferences are marriages of convenience -- nothing sacred or holy about them. The pompous position statements held up by every athletic conference make for warm and fuzzy public relations, but they're not chiseled in stone tablets. When Ithaca thumps Vassar, you'll just have to take comfort in knowing that the Bombers may have a better baseball team but not the better SAT scores.

[scuba16]

Im a Cortland baseball alum and dont really like IC(go figure) but I have the utmost respect for them!  IC never ducks anyone when it comes to the diamond. They may have taken advantage of their conference situation and who can blame them. They get a pool B bid every year!
I don't know how many remember but IC was THE PREMIER d-3 baseball program in the COUNTRY in the 70's, 80's and early 90's.
Coach Val does a great job, bottom line!

[BoomerIL]

Excuse me for asking a naive question, but was the Liberty League set-up to be a academic conference?    It shouldn't matter what the programs SAT/ACT scores are, or what their acceptance rate is.  To me if your trying to improve your conference/team rating nationally, then you need to have the "ranked" in-region schools on your schedule.

Everyone considers a Vassar or Union as "cream puff" programs.  I don't!  How many other conferences have those caliber baseball teams in them?  So, because those schools don't draw, including Rochester, St. Lawrence, Clarkson, and even RPI, the talent that maybe Ithaca or Cortland draw, what difference does it make?  Good debate?  If those weaker programs, which has included Rochester Clarkson, want to get to the regionals and beyond, they know they have to attract the better palyers.  How do you do that?  We all know its winning, and winning year after year.

I wouldn't knock Ithaca's academics.  It's still a good school, and I'm sure that if some of those players who don't see the playing time maybe wish they had gone to another school.  They have talent as seen with one of their pitchers Fishback.  His brother graduated last year from Rochester, but he didn't want to go where his brother went.  The same was true for Brady Noon's brother.  Brady also graduated from UR last year and his brother went to Wash U. in St.Louis.

So what if Fishback went to UR?  Pretty good pitcher, HUH???  I think he would have definitely helped Rochester this year.  So, maybe Ithaca helps the Liberty League get better.  That's what I think.  What do you all think??

[WrongArm]

I lifted this bit of history from the E8 web site.

In 1964, Alfred University, Clarkson University, Hobart College, Rensselaer, St. Lawrence University, and Union College joined together to form the Independent College Athletic Conference (ICAC). Its primary purpose was aimed at schedule making for a few major sports. Union soon dropped out to be replaced later by Ithaca College and RIT. The conference remained at seven institutions for 20 years. Hobart and William Smith merged as one member and Hartwick College entered the conference in 1991.

In 1991, the ICAC reorganized and the Empire Athletic Association (EAA) emerged as a quality conference composed of institutions with top academic and athletic reputations.

Since 1993, the EAA served as a single sport conference for Men and Women's Basketball. Soon after the departure of Hobart/William Smith, RPI, and St. Lawrence, Elmira College, Nazareth College, and Utica College joined the EAA to maintain six members and a cohesive basketball alignment. In 1998, Alfred University and St. John Fisher became the latest of the eight official members.

In the Fall of 1999, the EAA officially became the Empire 8 which evolved into a comprehensive conference for 13 sports for men and women.

Most of these schools, at least in some sports, have played together at one time or another. Maybe one of the "old buzzards" on the board can fill in the blanks  :-)

I meant no disrespect to Vassar. For the last few years I've pulled for Utica against Ithaca with no success. Most of the games have been well played and close (I'm trying to forget the stinkers) and the Bombers bring their best and play hard and with class every game. I'd expect them to do the same, win or lose, for every LL team, including Vassar.

If RIT and Ithaca leave the E8, as a baseball conference, I'd day the E8 is beyond life support -- though there those who would say the patient was already dead :-(

[BaseB13]

Don't think I ever said I disliked Ithaca John. 

You never miss a chance to dis Ithaca. You've consistently complained that Ithaca's schedule is too soft, that they're overrated, that they always get a "free pass," and on and on.  If Ithaca joins the Liberty League, there'll be no place for them to hide anymore. I'd have expected you to be glad about that. Instead all I see is bitching about acceptance percentages. Afraid of the gym teachers?

Athletic conferences are marriages of convenience -- nothing sacred or holy about them. The pompous position statements held up by every athletic conference make for warm and fuzzy public relations, but they're not chiseled in stone tablets. When Ithaca thumps Vassar, you'll just have to take comfort in knowing that the Bombers may have a better baseball team but not the better SAT scores.

This is where you're off again. I did not dis Ithaca last year.  I said that an Independent team has the ability to line up their pitching against the best possible opponents because  their conference games do not mean anything.  You disagreed with that if I remember correctly.  Ask any coach in the E8 and they'll tell you that.  Every college coach knows that Pool B teams have a different motivation throughout their scheduling than teams with an automatic bid.  This is not JUST Ithaca.  It's all Pool B teams. So there you go, it's nothing personal against IC.

As for the conference realignment, this has nothing to do with baseball.  This has to do with how the schools match up with many sports.  In fact, RIT tries to get into the Liberty League every year.  Their application to the league is nothing new.  And this has nothing to do with strengthening the conference for baseball.

In my opinion, conferences should consist of teams with similar academic missions/criteria.  Again, as I've said "Peer Schools".  That way the bid is decided amongst teams who recruit for the same talent.  This is not entirely the case with the LL right now because you have a combination of engineering schools and liberal arts schools.  However, atleast the conference consists of schools with similar academic credentials.

Why do you think the Ivy League is all top tier academic institutions?  Or the Big Ten is all big time engineering schools?  Or the NESCAC is all top tier New England liberal arts schools?  Or the SUNYAC is all upstate public NY schools? I suppose it's just coincidence.  Or maybe not. 

As for IC getting a free pass, they probably have gotten a free pass.  However, they've probably deserved most of those passes.  Now their will be no free pass.  I do envision them doing very well in the LL.  I also envision their NCAA appearance streak being broken in the very near future.

I find it ironic on the board that people feel completely comfortable to bash a teams athletic ability but as soon as someone points out that a school may not be quite on par with another academically, everyone becomes politically correct.  News flash fellas, IC is good school, but it's no Harvard.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  So get over it.

[dom]

The DIII baseball in NY is passionate, and it makes for good baseball all around.

[pudge27]

I've got a couple of points/questions. 

--Firstly, Boomer... You're right, woulda shoulda coulda with UR.  I don't mean that snidely.  It's tough when you think that you should have done better.  I don't think that anyone here doubts them in a 1 game situation with anyone.  Keep in mind that the tournament that we're talking about is for the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.  Not supposed to be easy to get in.  UR is definitely a good team, but they have to finish instead of letting good starts turn into mediocre records. 

--Secondly, can someone explain why the argument keeps being made about how academically superior the LL is?  We are talking about baseball here.  That sounds like an argument that a terrible team would choose to use.  Or maybe some team who would be very happy to have a league title and have no further expectations.  Yeah, we suck but boy are our academic standards murder.  Thanks Worthington.  Have fun with Buffy at the cotillion.    I don't mean to poo poo a league championship at all.  My point is that a lot of this seems to come from trying to compare leagues, which is a legit discussion, but academics are really moot when it comes to really deciding who's best. 

Somebody tell me if I'm missing part of this argument, but don't tell how much harder it is for UR or RPI over Ithaca and how much harder it is for Ithaca over Cortland, etc.  Once you get out of the classroom, there's no bonus points, no??

[WrongArm]

Here's how you dissed Ithaca last February:
"...Ithaca beats all the Liberty League teams and SUNYAC teams because when they have to play Utica four times in one weekend they can throw their JV pitchers.  Then they have all their top arms to throw against non conference opponents mid week such as Rochester, Cortland, Clarkson, St Lawrence etc.  So while those teams are throwing their number 5 or piecing together a game with 5 different pitchers, Ithaca can save their top arms for the best teams they possibly play because their conference games are completely meaningless."

I'd forgotten you wrote this. Your assertion that Ithaca throws JV pitchers against Utica in their meaningless games is as incorrect and silly today as it was last year.

For a little more irony, though, look at the Rochester/Ithaca game this season. Here's a midweek game against a tough opponent. McDaniel, their #1 matches up against Veenema and both throw four innings. Rochester finishes by committee, but Ithaca hands the ball to a freshman in his first collegiate game who gets the win. Twelve days earlier, in a four-game weekend, Utica sees McDaniel, Sapp, Fishback, Lynch and Healy -- Ithaca's top pitchers wasted on meaningless E8 games against inferior competition. But against Rochester, a midweek game, Ithaca loads up with their JV staff. It's just unfair. If Ithaca does well in the Liberty League, you'll have to come up with some fresh excuses.

[BaseB13]

WrongArm, one example out of how many possible games?  Don't try to use that logic with me.. or lack of.  You don't have to believe me if you don't want.  We can easily pull up the Ithaca win over Cortland this year where Cortland threw their #5 and Ithaca threw their #1 and #2 for over 2/3 of the game.  Probably would have thrown them for me if the game wasn't out of hand in their favor.

We can go back and forth about this situation and pick out examples for both sides.  Instead, why don't you think about this logically, and think about it in terms of Pool B teams in general.  While you're at it, why don't you find the quotes where I stated I would do the same thing if I was Ithaca or any other Pool B team.  So I guess I am dissing myself as well?

Now ask yourself what YOU would do if you were the coach of any Pool B team.  Here's the scenario: Your conference games mean the same as your non conference games. (Let's pretend your SJFC so you don't think I'm picking on IC)  You can probably get by with your #5 against Utica on Saturday and you're playing Cortland on Wednesday.  Who do you throw against Cortland?  Let me answer the question for you.  If you have any sense of a brain, you throw your best Wednesday because that win looks a lot better in the regional committee's eyes.

Now suppose you're a Pool C team.  You play Cortland on Wednesday but you play Vassar on Saturday.  The win against Cortland is pretty much meaningless.  It'd be nice to have for bragging rights (See UR this year).  However, if you start a #5 against Vassar and somehow lose, it could adversely affect your position in the conference tournament and maybe prevent you from even competing for a Pool A bid.

So now that we've examined the scenario independetly of Ithaca I think it's pretty obvious that there is some strategy depending on if your a Pool C or Pool B team.  Finally, if a coach is not following these respective strategies based on the type of team they are then I do wonder what exactly they're thinking.

Pudge, as for the LL being superior academically.  This has nothing to do with baseball.  It has to do with the reasoning behind conferences.  They're supposed to be a group of peer schools.  I believe this is part of the reason RIT has been nixed every year for the past several years in its attempt to join the LL.  A technical school with 13,000 students doesn't usually compete with a liberal arts college with 2,000 students for the same type of student.  Because I know people get sensitive about the topic we'll stay away from the topic of how a larger school can be more lax on its admissions standards for athletes because with more students a schools mean scores will be less affected. 

In no way did I use academics as an excuse for the Liberty League.  In fact, they don't need it.  The conference has had no problem competing on a regional level while maintaining its strong admission requirements.

[WrongArm]

WrongArm, one example out of how many possible games?  Don't try to use that logic with me

I understand why you don't like my example but you picked that game a year ago. The coincidence was just too sweet to ignore. You are a baseball Nostradamus, but like Nostadamus, a few of the details were muddy. It turns out that you were right about Ithaca throwing JV pitchers, just not against Utica. Where's your sense of humor? You were wearing a cosmic "kick me" sign. Better luck next year, though.

You play Cortland on Wednesday but you play Vassar on Saturday.  The win against Cortland is pretty much meaningless.  It'd be nice to have for bragging rights (See UR this year).  However, if you start a #5 against Vassar and somehow lose, it could adversely affect your position in the conference tournament and maybe prevent you from even competing for a Pool A bid.

A .500 conference record was good enough for Skidmore to make the LL tournament. That's a 12 loss cushion and you're biting your nails over a game with Vassar?

Simple, black and white rules don't always work in a complicated, full color world.