BB: LL: Liberty League

[BaseB13]

Wrong Arm

You said:
"I understand why you don't like my example but you picked that game a year ago. The coincidence was just too sweet to ignore. You are a baseball Nostradamus, but like Nostadamus, a few of the details were muddy. It turns out that you were right about Ithaca throwing JV pitchers, just not against Utica. Where's your sense of humor? You were wearing a cosmic "kick me" sign. Better luck next year, though."

I believe I said Ithaca can save their top arms for the best competition.  So looking back at the example you claimed I used a year ago, Ithaca did throw Sottung (#1) against Oswego on Thursday and he did not start the weekend against Utica.  I think there are countless examples of this throughout Pool B teams' schedules.  I bet you will find considerably less examples of this from Pool C teams.  They eithr throw by committee with their starters as a "bullpen" day or they use a #5. I'm asserting from your posts that you think this is a bad idea because you continue to fail to acknowledge that this strategy makes complete sense.  Of course, if you acknowledged this point then you'd be acknowledging that I am not always "dissing" IC.


You then said:
A .500 conference record was good enough for Skidmore to make the LL tournament. That's a 12 loss cushion and you're biting your nails over a game with Vassar?

Simple, black and white rules don't always work in a complicated, full color world.

My response to this is very simple.  Using Skidmore as the example that you bring up, it looks like they did infact lose to Vassar once last year.  That .500 record was not enough to get them in the tournament.  Had they won that Vassar game, they would have been in.  So I'd argue teams should bite their nails against Vassar and any other conference opponent.

So while you're discussing kick me signs, answer this question:  Does it make sense for a Pool B team to throw their best in a midweek game if that win provides a more important victory in the region?  If you say no that's fine.  Apparently you disagree with Coach V because apparently he did last year.

[airball55]

Awesome discussion, good to see smart people discussing the game we all like.  Every year the team that does not make it thinks they could have won the thing and that is fine, I would too and have thought the same thing.  My two cents on Ithaca.  Real nice program but Coach V would fight till he could fight no more about joining the LL.  And whoever said it isn't about baseball is 100% correct, administrators in this region care about three things, football, basketball and Title 9, that is it!!! 

Ithaca reminds me though of Notre Dame a bit and how every year people talk about them joining a league.  They get a free ride pretty much every year to a bowl game and every chance to play in a BCS because they are "Notre Dame".   Similarly, Ithaca pretty much gets a bid as long as they are a bit over .500 every year because they are "Ithaca".  But similar to ND, their post season success has waned a bit over the past decade and there is no way they would want any part of an automatic qualifier in a post season tournament when they get a free ride every year.  This is by no means a dis on the Bombers.  Everyone would love to be in that situation.  I do however agree with the advantages they have midweek versus in region opponents which I have stated in the past. 

Good luck to Farmingdale, lost their first game and came all the way back, IMPRESSIVE!!

[AlleyCat]

How about the LL? Having 2 of 3 teams in the final 3 at the New York Regional. Everyone always looks down upon the LL but they showed the strength and absolutely showed the LL was better than the SUNYAC this year.  I think the 4 game weekends really help them prepare for tournments and it showed. I know it may hurt them with out of conference opponents, but it shows when they get to the dance they can perform. They play 32 innings each weekend which makes you have pitching depth. Great seasons for Clarkson and RPI. Too bad RPI couldn't take it home although I'm sure it was tough beating Farmingdale at home.

[WrongArm]

I believe I said Ithaca can save their top arms for the best competition.

Actually, you said a bit more. Your exact words were,"when they [Ithaca] have to play Utica four times in one weekend they can throw their JV pitchers." You also said, "Ithaca can save their top arms for the best teams they possibly play because their conference games are completely meaningless."

I assume you know what "completely" means and what "meaningless" means. And you deliberately put the two together -- "completely meaningless" -- to describe Ithaca's conference games. But you didn't stop there. Utica is so bad that Ithaca throws their JV pitchers against them. Don't let the fact that it doesn't happen get in the way of your argument. It's only a small jump from labeling an entire conference schedule as meaningless to your next gem --  your often repeated theme that the student athletes at Ithaca could not be fit members of the Liberty League.

I don't know why you keep lecturing on pool B vs pool C -- that was never an issue. Your outrageous claims and disrespect were. I won't complain that for all your exhaustive analysis, an Ithaca JV pitcher beat Rochester in a midweek game. You are curiously quiet on this game. Doesn't it fit your model?

If I apply your standards, Ithaca and the Empire 8 haven't got a monopoly on "meaningless" games either. In the Liberty League this year, winning half your conference games earns a spot in the league tournament. Lose all the rest of your games and you're still in. In a 35 game schedule that's 23 losses that change not one bit your chance to compete in the league playoffs. Some might call those games meaningless too. If you play in a conference that receives no automatic bid, there are no second chances. Post a 12-23 record and you're done. Every game matters. In fact, you might even say that those games are the opposite of meaningless.

Of course, your concept of "meaningless" games is just as absurd when applied to the Liberty League as it is to the Empire 8 because no games are meaningless.

College students invest the considerable time and effort to play baseball for lots of reasons -- love of the game, the challenge to constantly improve, the camaraderie -- as many reasons as there are players. In conference games, even in a conference that receives no automatic bid, students also play for something called pride. Maybe you've heard of it.

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I'd also like to add my congratulations to RPI and Clarkson for their outstanding seasons. They are impressive representatives for their schools and conference.

[BaseB13]

WrongArm, You're attempt to cling to a word here and there from over a year ago is pathetic.  So some exaggeration was used to describe Ithaca, and ALL Pool B teams' situation.  Get over it.  Again, college coaches that coach both Pool B and Pool C teams acknowledge that this goes on all the time.  It is an advantage that Pool B teams have over Pool C teams in certain matchups.  This is EXACTLY why I've said numerous times that you cannot give a lot of weight to midweek non-conference games.  Bring up that quote while you're at it.

As for the Rochester/Ithaca game that you speak of.  You're talking about the game that Ithaca's Ace, McDaniel, gave up 7 hits, 7 run, and 3 walks in four innings?  He faced 25 batters so probably reached 100+ pitches.  This is obviously why IC turned to the bullpen.  You act like this was a planned move.  UR did throw Veenema, a very good pitcher, who had not thrown in weeks, and was basically getting a rehab start.  UR then finished by committee which I said most Pool C teams tend to do midweek.  Kudos to the reliever for Ithaca for going 4 innings and allowing 2 unearned runs.   

As for the LL wins and losses, I believe I refuted your point in my last post.  Some years a .500 record gets you in, some years it doesn't.  Regardless, every LL conference game means significantly more than any E8 game.

While you state that I continue to "dis" Ithaca, you fail to post a single quote where I have said positive things about them, and other Pool B teams.  The quotes are out there too.  I think Ithaca will make the LL tournament often although I'm interested to see how the new scheduling will work.  I also think now that most schools have fulltime coaches that it has become increasingly more difficult for Ithaca to maintain the dominance it once had in NY region baseball.   I envision Ithaca's NCAA streak ending in the near future because they're joining the LL.  It's pretty simple, no team in the LL has been able to maintain much of a streak.  So while you'll probably view many of my comments as bashing, I'll view them as logical.

When I originally posted that Ithaca should not join the LL b/c they're not a peer school I was unaware that RIT and Naz were joining as well.  I'd say the same about those schools as well.  So there you go, I am not "dissing" just IC.  Although I dont consider it dissing, you do.  Look back at the posts and you'll see I believe John referenced only IC joining the LL at the time.

[WrongArm]

BaseB13 wrote on: March 11, 2008, 09:58:22 am

You just keep reinforcing the stereotype that Ithaca graduates are a bunch of meatheads known only for their athletic ability.  Although you may find that insulting, that is unfortantely for you, the stereotype of your alma mater.

Your words. Just "some exaggeration" again? Instead of explaining pool B and pool C for the tenth time, why don't you lecture on the idea of peer schools again. But this time, don't leave out the part about the "meatheads."

[BaseB13]

Haha get a life man.  You keep digging up for quotes on a message board.  Unfortunately, that is the stereotype.  Ithaca is known as a very athletic, athletic training, "jock" type school.  When people think of Ithaca, many people think of their athletic program before their academics.  Maybe you disagree.  I'd find it difficult for you to do this.  It's pretty well known that the administration emphasizes athletics very heavily.  You clearly have an inferiority complex because you won't let this go.

And FYI, Ithaca, Nazareth, and RIT joining the Liberty League is NOT a done deal.  Other schools have also applied.  Some may get in, some may not.  And if some do not get in, I'll avoid saying why because I wouldn't want to hurt anyones elses feelings by stating the truth.

[WrongArm]

As Ithaca College may be joining the Liberty League, I encourage you to learn more about the school so you won't have rely on the crutch of stereotypes to form your opinions. There's much more going on there than "meatheads"  training to ambush the guys wearing pocket protectors. Learn the truth and you won't look so foolish the next time you feel the need to resort to insults when you're losing an argument.

[BaseB13]

Haha again where did I resort to insults?  The quote you mentioned from a year ago where I said you were "reinforcing the stereotype"? Stop behaving in such ways and I won't need to say that.

I think you're right though WrongArm. After talking to you, your sensivity and sense of inferiority is not typical of a "meathead" or "jock".  I stand corrected.  Before I stereotype anymore, is this typical of your alma mater or are you an anomaly?  That was a rhetorical question meant as a joke.  You don't need to answer it.  I wouldn't want you thinking I was hating on IC.

Why don't we get back to baseball while we're at it.  Any early takers on how the league shakes out next year?  Who loses the most?

[AlleyCat]

I believe the LL had it's league meeting this week so we should have some answers to who may be joining the league in 2010-2011.

For next year - Rochester loses 3 of its top starters in Veenema3 wins, Park 6 wins and Toland 6 winsand they will be hard to replace. They also lose Sullivan.354 and 4 saves, VanDer Styne .331, Brien .336. St lawrence loses Bodnar 4 winswho was their ace but return Cook 4 wins who had a nice season. Skidmore loses Reilly 4 wins who was their big game pitcher, Morelli and Gruber. RPI loses Wilkes who was solid in CF for 4 years, Devine who played 3B for 4 years and Opperman 7 wins and Novick 6 wins. Clarkson lost a bunch of important seniors mainly Pitkin, Holiday, Giordano,Bittner and Chojecki. I'm not sure who loses the most but I'm sure Rochester, Clarkson and RPI will reload. St Lawrence returns a lot of guys and Skidmore still has many guys back who can play.

Could be another competitive year in the LL next year. It will depend on how the recruiting classes shape up.

[BaseB13]

I saw RIT has announced they will be joining the Liberty League, most likely in 2011.  Any word on any of the other potential schools?  (Naz, Ithaca, Bard)?

[John McGraw]

I saw RIT has announced they will be joining the Liberty League, most likely in 2011.  Any word on any of the other potential schools?  (Naz, Ithaca, Bard)?

Scroll down and you'll see that the rumor is RIT, Ithaca and Nazareth jumping to the Liberty League for 2010-2011 at the earliest. RIT and Nazareth would be travel partners in most sports and Ithaca would partner up with Hobart/William Smith to replace departed Hamilton.

[Pat Coleman]

I had heard the rumor of Bard as well. I don't think that would be a job move in terms of competitiveness for the Raptors.

[John McGraw]

I had heard the rumor of Bard as well. I don't think that would be a job move in terms of competitiveness for the Raptors.

I s'pose it would make sense given that Vassar is already in the Liberty League and Bard for the most part is right next door. Though, I definitely agree that that wouldn't be a very wise move on Bard's part, given the lack of success they've had in the NEAC and previously the Skyline.

[BaseB13]

I know there have been rumors about all four schools (Ithaca, Naz, RIT, Bard).  I also know that it is official that RIT is moving to the Liberty League in 2011.  I didn't know if anything else was official yet though or if the other three are just rumors still.