Division III football rivalries

[Jonny Utah]

You all have valid points that I agree with, Im just trying to use their arguments here.

Still though, If you looked every football players SAT, gpa, class rank etc at Cal, Stanford, Williams....you would see a difference between them and the regular student body.  Its surely not enought to call any of them "podunk u" of course, but it is there.

And there is a lot of elitism going on at those schools, "fantasy" or not.

And Williams and Amherst are different than the other nescac schools still.  They want to be #1 and #2.  There would be probably be people fired if those schools ever got down to the #9 spot.  Silly as it sounds, they want to be #1.

And I wasnt saying Carleton drops admissions standards, I have no idea.  But Williams and Amherst do to some extent (as does the Ivys) to get athletes into schools.

[smedindy]

I would gather that every group outside of the normal demo for those schools look different than the 'normal' student body though. Admissions is complicated - schools look to balance the classes in many different ways and give some students a 'chance' as it were if they see something in them.

It's an art, not a science.

But really, those schools aren't admitting schlubs who can't or won't do the work. There are no Katzenmoyer's at Cal or Williams.

[Spence]

I would gather that every group outside of the normal demo for those schools look different than the 'normal' student body though. Admissions is complicated - schools look to balance the classes in many different ways and give some students a 'chance' as it were if they see something in them.

It's an art, not a science.

But really, those schools aren't admitting schlubs who can't or won't do the work. There are no Katzenmoyer's at Cal or Williams.

Don't fool yourself. There are plenty of people at Cal playing football that have no business there. There are very very few D-I schools that don't have stooges standing in for student-athletes. Even your Magnolia League schools like Vandy, Wake Forest, etc. have their share of chuckleheads, and under Tedford, Cal isn't even in *that* class. Much like Duke in basketball, the school sold its soul to football when they hired Tedford and gave him free reign as far as academics go.

I'd wager a lot that the quality of student on the Williams FB team far outstrips that of Cal.

[DagarmanSpartan]

I went to law school at the University of Houston, and I must say that MANY of their football and men's basketball players are VERY marginal students, and I'd be willing to bet that less than half graduate.

Division I Bowl Subdivision teams routinely make all sorts of exceptions to their normal admissions policies when it comes to scholarship athletes, particularly in the big revenue sports of football and men's basketball.

Don't assume that an athlete at Stanford, Northwestern, Cal-Berkeley, Vandy, Rice, or Georgia Tech is on the same level as a regularly admitted student at one of those schools.  Although all of those schools have some players that could be admitted as regular students, most of the football and men's basketball players at those schools probably would not have been admitted if it weren't for their athletic prowess.

[2sportdevil]

I am posting this as a Div 1 FB fan. Yesterday I took the opportunity to attend the Div 3 playoff game between the Wabash Cannonballs and the CWRU Rough Cats(as they should be named) at Case Field at the corner of E.115 and Bellflower(what a neighborhood to be raised in!). Whatever happened to Finegan Field? I found it to be as entertaining as any Div 1 game. Of course the talent wasn't equal but the execution was as good as many of the higher Div. games(i.e. Duke/Notre Dame game)  Two pluses for Div 3 games are the lack of head bobbing, chest thumping and trash talking of Div. 1. Also, without the omnipresent TV timeouts the game flowed better and the time of the game was cut by 30 to 45 minutes. Unfortunately Div 3 games don't get their deserved recognition for pure FB enjoyment. I might even become a fan.

[Jonny Utah]

I am posting this as a Div 1 FB fan. Yesterday I took the opportunity to attend the Div 3 playoff game between the Wabash Cannonballs and the CWRU Rough Cats(as they should be named) at Case Field at the corner of E.115 and Bellflower(what a neighborhood to be raised in!). Whatever happened to Finegan Field? I found it to be as entertaining as any Div 1 game. Of course the talent wasn't equal but the execution was as good as many of the higher Div. games(i.e. Duke/Notre Dame game)  Two pluses for Div 3 games are the lack of head bobbing, chest thumping and trash talking of Div. 1. Also, without the omnipresent TV timeouts the game flowed better and the time of the game was cut by 30 to 45 minutes. Unfortunately Div 3 games don't get their deserved recognition for pure FB enjoyment. I might even become a fan.

Funny.  I had great seats at the Miami/Boston College game yesterday (10 rows up from the field).  Sold out, (45k?) great crowd and a good game the whole way through.

But I enjoyed the Mt. Union/Ithaca game and the Curry/Coast Guard games just as much.

Higher level d3 games are very good football games.

[smedindy]

I went to law school at the University of Houston, and I must say that MANY of their football and men's basketball players are VERY marginal students, and I'd be willing to bet that less than half graduate.

Division I Bowl Subdivision teams routinely make all sorts of exceptions to their normal admissions policies when it comes to scholarship athletes, particularly in the big revenue sports of football and men's basketball.

Don't assume that an athlete at Stanford, Northwestern, Cal-Berkeley, Vandy, Rice, or Georgia Tech is on the same level as a regularly admitted student at one of those schools.  Although all of those schools have some players that could be admitted as regular students, most of the football and men's basketball players at those schools probably would not have been admitted if it weren't for their athletic prowess.

However, Houston ain't Rice. The missions are different, for sure. But a kid going to Rice or Stanford, even to play football, has expectations that kids at Houston don't have.

Spence - the 'chuckleheads' at Cal are probably better students than the majority of D-1, and have a great opportunity at an education.

[BTEXPRESS]

To jump into this whole NESCAC debate( which by the way has been going on since July on the NESCAC board) The Football fans agree. Hey at this point, most fans would be happy with a 9th game to at least play EVERY school in the conference, let alone play outside conference members and play in the NCAA playoffs. So far this fall ,the NESCAC has won NATIONAL DIVISION III CHAMPIONSHIPS in X Country, Field Hockey and Men's soccer. For whatever reasons, which no one on the NESCAC board can explain, the presidents will let every other sport participate in the NCAA playoffs but Football. How they feel this will take away from the Football players studies is beyond me. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Pat Coleman]

I really think it's very simple -- this is the way the Ivy League does it, therefore the NESCAC must copy.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I really think it's very simple -- this is the way the Ivy League does it, therefore the NESCAC must copy.

Spurning the playoffs - yes.  Spurning ALL non-conference games - no.

[Pat Coleman]

I am more focused on the former, to be sure.

[Jonny Utah]

I posted this a few pages back.   I know a lot of coaches and former players in the Nescac, and the common theme seem to be these three issues in order of importance.

Im going to say theres 3 reasons in this order.

1) History. (They have never done it and like that.  They even used to list the standings in alphabetical order!)

2) The Ivy leagues don't do it. That's who they want to compare themselves too.

3) Puts too much of an emphasis on a sport, in terms of a long season (in terms of the entire first semester being dedicated to one sport)


And to add to this list, it seems that the Ivys all seem to be on one page when it comes to athletics.  The nescac schools still seem to have a more competitive nature about them that includes academics.  I get a feeling that Williams and Amherst people love being ranked above Trinity and Middlebury, while Harvard alum could care less what happens to Dartmouth.  They are going to think Harvard is better regardless. 

[Trin9-0]

I am a former NESCAC football player and when I was playing I would have loved an opportunity to play an out of conference opponent and/or compete in the DIII playoffs.

However, I don't understand why anyone outside of the NESCAC bubble would care? We have our little 8 game schedule and our little rivalries that we care so much about. And you have your own rivalries and your playoffs that mean so much to you.

Why is it elitist that NESCAC football doesn't go to the playoffs? Does it really bother any of you that much?

If it bothers anyone is would be NESCAC football players. They work just as hard if not harder than their classmates who play basketball, baseball, hockey, etc. Those athletes have the chance to participate in the NCAA playoffs. However, football players at NESCAC schools do not even have the opportunity to see how they stack up againt the rest of the country.

With that said, I can say that many of my former teammates thought that 8 games was more than enough. For those who don't want football to consume more than 3 months of their year the NESCAC is a great place to play football.

This is not a knock on the Mt. Union's of the DIII world who practice and play games for up to 5 months. It is simply an alternative way to view intercollegiate football.

[smedindy]

It gives the impression of elitism because they have decided they do not want to associate with the rest of D-3, thus separating themselves.

[Pat Coleman]

I am a former NESCAC football player and when I was playing I would have loved an opportunity to play an out of conference opponent and/or compete in the DIII playoffs.

However, I don't understand why anyone outside of the NESCAC bubble would care? We have our little 8 game schedule and our little rivalries that we care so much about. And you have your own rivalries and your playoffs that mean so much to you.

Why is it elitist that NESCAC football doesn't go to the playoffs? Does it really bother any of you that much?

If it bothers anyone is would be NESCAC football players. They work just as hard if not harder than their classmates who play basketball, baseball, hockey, etc. Those athletes have the chance to participate in the NCAA playoffs. However, football players at NESCAC schools do not even have the opportunity to see how they stack up againt the rest of the country.

With that said, I can say that many of my former teammates thought that 8 games was more than enough. For those who don't want football to consume more than 3 months of their year the NESCAC is a great place to play football.

This is not a knock on the Mt. Union's of the DIII world who practice and play games for up to 5 months. It is simply an alternative way to view intercollegiate football.

For a long time it bothered me because the NESCAC's isolation kept us from getting to 32 teams. But it also bothers me because the NESCAC may well be good and become title contenders within a few years after coming out of isolation. Why wouldn't we want increased competitiveness?