Division III football rivalries

[redswarm81]

I actually read Mr. Ypsi's post and he said it's one thing to spurn the playoffs but something else entirely to play no non-conference games.

Some reading before spewing rhetoric might help you, redswarm.

So much for playing the academic card!

[I suspect the UAA may have some other issues with his post as well.]

I think that U.S. News and World Report has come down on the side of NESCAC v. UAA.

I meant no disrespect, Doc, and I didn't mean to spew, Guru.

But as Pat said, Ypsi mentioned "one thing" (spurning playoffs), which I addressed; and he mentioned "something else entirely" (playing no non-conference games whatsoever), which I also addressed.

• "One thing" is a defensible voluntary choice by NESCAC member schools, which I suspect is permitted by the NCAA Division III membership requirements.
• "Something else entirely" seems irrelevant to membership in  NCAA Division III.

Thus, if "something else entirely" is truly irrelevant, then we're left with only "one thing:"  Spurning playoffs.  I don't think that spurning a five week playoff following an eight week season is sufficient reason to question a conference's NCAA Division III bona fides.

But that's just my opinion.  Ypsi has a different opinion.  I don't think you lack academic rigor just because you hold a different opinion, Doc.

[Mr. Ypsi]

My phrasing of 'something else entirely' was meant to suggest that THAT was my real quibble.  If they play NO other d3 teams EVER, are they really a part of d3 football?  Seems to me they are (contra Donne) an island unto themselves.

They have that right, of course, and I am not questioning their d3 bona fides overall, but (IMO) they have chosen NOT to be in d3 football.

[I've also got a quibble with their SINGLE round-robin in basketball, but that awaits a different season! ]

[redswarm81]

My phrasing of 'something else entirely' was meant to suggest that THAT was my real quibble.  If they play NO other d3 teams EVER, are they really a part of d3 football?  Seems to me they are (contra Donne) an island unto themselves.

They have that right, of course, and I am not questioning their d3 bona fides overall, but (IMO) they have chosen NOT to be in d3 football.

As I say, I have a different reaction than most when I think of NCAA Division III.  I don't understand why my reaction is such a minority, but it is, as my karma totals attest.  Academics come before athletics in NCAA Division III.

The NCAA has no say in conference makeup or in scheduling, as far as I'm aware.   The NESCAC adheres to the NCAA Division III membership requirements.  Of course they are really a part of d3 for football.

I don't see how NESCAC's adherence to the Division III membership requirements leads to the conclusion that NESCAC is not really a part of d3 for anything, including football.

I can understand the desire for the entertainment value of a national playoff, but I don't see any reason to grant the NCAA such dictatorial power to restrict individual Division III member schools' conference membership and scheduling choices.

Time to watch Rollerball again.

[Ralph Turner]

My phrasing of 'something else entirely' was meant to suggest that THAT was my real quibble.  If they play NO other d3 teams EVER, are they really a part of d3 football?  Seems to me they are (contra Donne) an island unto themselves.

They have that right, of course, and I am not questioning their d3 bona fides overall, but (IMO) they have chosen NOT to be in d3 football.

[I've also got a quibble with their SINGLE round-robin in basketball, but that awaits a different season! ]

Nice touch!  Three zingers in one post!

Mr Ypsi, I still owe you 2 more Karmas! 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thanks, Ralph.

Redswarm, you seem to be (stubbornly?) missing my point.  I'm not suggesting that NESCAC is not 'qualified' for d3 football, or that d3 has (or should have) evicted them.  I'm saying that NESCAC has seemingly, of their own free will, chosen to secede from d3 football.  That is their right (and in no way affects their overall membership), and since d3 football is (slightly ) less important than the Union, I have no interest in waging a Civil War over the issue.

And so to bed.  I await your reply (if you so choose) tomorrow.

[Jonny Utah]

I think I've heard that in a couple rivalries. Not sure those early records were very well kept.

What a crappy year for ESPN to pick Williams (5-2) and Amherst (4-3).

Those two are usually in the title mix alongside Trinity (Conn.)

I guess there was nowhere they wanted to be this week. Interested to hear why D3 suddenly interested them.

Was anyone able to watch it?  How was the crowd behind the espn desk?

[redswarm81]

Thanks, Ralph.

Redswarm, you seem to be (stubbornly?) missing my point.  I'm not suggesting that NESCAC is not 'qualified' for d3 football, or that d3 has (or should have) evicted them.  I'm saying that NESCAC has seemingly, of their own free will, chosen to secede from d3 football.  That is their right (and in no way affects their overall membership), . . .

Got it.  The NESCAC member schools have, of their own free will, chosen to behave in a manner completely within their rights as members of NCAA Division III, and consistent with their requirements of NCAA Division III membership.  I don't see how you consider that tantamount to secession from d3 football.

You seem to be missing my point--non-conference play is irrelevant to membership in NCAA Division III.  Your point is an irrelevancy with respect to d3 football, with respect to d3 anything.  I understand that you don't like it, but I don't understand why you think it has anything to do with the label "d3 football."

Maybe that's what you meant by "seemingly."

Ralph must be so proud.

[HScoach]

UGH.  That's 2 minutes of my life I'll never get back.  Sounded like my kids arguing.

FWIW, I'm with Mr. Ypsi on this one.  What rings odd with me is their non-participation in the playoffs in football, but full participation in every other sport.  Sure seems like cross-campus intramurals to me.

[met_fan]

I'm not sure I understand why redswarm is getting so bent out of shape here.  Mr. Ypsi points out (rightly) that NESCAC football has chosen to go play by themselves and don't quite see where he is wrong.  That is certainly their right, but even the Ivies, while choosing not to participate in the playoffs for football, still manage to schedule some play outside of conference.

[smedindy]

I think that U.S. News and World Report has come down on the side of NESCAC v. UAA.

Except that the UAA and the NESCAC are in totally different categories in the US News rankings, and that the NESCAC rankings are usually inflated in those rankings due to the many problems associated with them.

[Jonny Utah]

I mean it is really just each schools individual choice to play who they want to.  I think its simply why they are in the NCAA for football though.  They want the same rules, and its easier to get officials.  Not a huge deal.

[redswarm81]

I'm not sure I understand why redswarm is getting so bent out of shape here.  Mr. Ypsi points out (rightly) that NESCAC football has chosen to go play by themselves and don't quite see where he is wrong.  That is certainly their right, but even the Ivies, while choosing not to participate in the playoffs for football, still manage to schedule some play outside of conference.

I'm not bent out of shape.  I just don't see a reason discuss the term of art "NCAA Division III" as anything other than what it is--a collection of colleges and universities who voluntarily abide by the membership requirements, that are set out by the NCAA.

It seems to me that Mr. Ypsi speaks for a lot of people when he says that NESCAC "isn't really"  participating in d3 for football.  I think that's nonsense.  NCAA Division III is NCAA Division III.  NESCAC member schools haven't violated any of the NCAA's Division III membership requirements.

If Ypsi or anyone else wants to define a new term, he's welcome to do so, and I'll be happy to discuss it.  But I don't understand why I'm considered to be "bent out of shape" just because I point out that Ypsi (and everyone else)'s complaints are not relevant to NESCAC schools' Division III status--really.

(None of this relates to the fact that I am the only person on the planet--outside of NESCAC, I suspect--who believes that NESCAC schools' football schedules are more consistent with the principle of "academics before athletics" than NESCAC's other sports schedules, where NESCAC teams participate in national playoffs.)

[Mr. Ypsi]

redswarm,

I admire your consistency of principle (I'm not being sarcastic - I really do).  In your last paragraph you say that withdrawing ALL sports from the playoffs would be more consistent with 'academics over athletics'.  I don't really agree, but I recognize your viewpoint, and admire your consistent stance.

But at that point, why worry about d3 standards and principles (or even membership) - why not (to suggest the alternative term) just speak of NESCAC standards and principles?  It is not nonsense to say NESCAC "isn't really" participating in d3 football; forget the 'really' part - NESCAC is NOT participating in d3 football since they play no other d3 football teams!  They are members of d3, and following all attendant rules, but they are participating only in NESCAC football.  There is nothing wrong with that (it can even be argued, as you have, that it is admirable), but it is what it is.

And I suspect you might get some flak from Williams about ceasing post-season competition in all sports - I get the impression they are rather fond of their seemingly permanent ownership of the Presidents Cup!

[Knightstalker]

Basically the NESCAC schools are acting like hypocritical spoiled children.  They want to play with everyone else and bragg about how great their programs are and how they are so much superior to everyone else.  Then football season comes around and like the spoiled child they say, It's my ball and I am going home and not playing with you anymore.    nyah, nyah, nyah.

They want to be the Ivy league so bad they are copying how they do things.  I am willing to bet that if the Ivy League started to allow their schools to participate in the playoffs the NESCAC would quickly follow.

I am not saying that the Ivy League schools are better but they more identifiable and I feel the NESCAC is envious.

Just my opinion.

[smedindy]

Except the Ivies also schedule out of conference. The Ivies this year played:

Duquense
Fordham
Bucknell
Colgate
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Georgetown
New Hampshire
Marist
Villanova
Rhode Island
Hampton

Are you telling me the NESCAC couldn't come out and play with schools in the East if the Ivies can?