Division III football rivalries

[K-Mack]

Once you get past the arrogance factor (your opinion, to which you're entitled) and give it some thought, I think people look at what NESCAC teams do in basketball and other sports and would like to take a crack at them in football, and if the reasoning wasn't so suspect and hypocrisy so obvious, people wouldn't be so eager to discuss it.

Like here for instance. Not MY Opinion. Speaking generally for the side opposite yours, after years of following this discussion on the message boards and elsewhere, as you no doubt have as well.

Sorry that wasn't clear when I wrote "That's why people react they way they do initially."

Don't make it me vs. you. It's a discussion that's rather complex. Personally, I see various shades of grey moreso than black and white.

[redswarm81]

And yet you're not happy, you're sad.  You're sad for those kids who--according to Trin8-0 and your ATN column-quoted players--are happy.      

I'm not sad, if you thought I said that, you're incorrect.

Please don't inject emotions in this on my behalf. It's an issue I've long been intrigued by but I am not particularly emotional about. In the above, I was speaking more generally and not even really for myself, since you seemed to be searching for someone to engage you on this well-worn topic, and I am a sucker.

I did say I feel for the kids who want to compete and don't get the chance to, . . .

Okay, I'll take your word for it that when you said you feel for the kids who want to compete in playoffs but don't get the chance to, you didn't mean that you feel sad for them.

(In my line of work, that'd be a tough distinction to make.  )

Philosophically, . . .

Personally, . . .

The playoffs do fine without the NESCAC and the NESCAC does fine without the playoffs. The hypocrisy we agree on.  We seem to agree that if the NESCAC is happy doing what the NESCAC does, no one is worse for the wear.

I think we both recognize where the other stands, and that's good.  I also recognize that my opinion is the minority, and as we both understand, kids who are smart enough to attend [e.g. Willams/Amherst/Wesleyan] and who are good enough football players to play football at [e.g. Middlebury/Colby/Tufts] are smart enough to know what they're getting.  As Trin8-0 and one of your ATN-quoted players attested, many NESCAC players don't even want more competition (although I think most people outside the NESCAC undervalue the competition that the multiple and overlapping NESCAC rivalries represent, so their 8 game seasons have a higher "competitiveness quotient" than many other teams' 10 game seasons).  Good for them that they have a place to get what they want from football, along with a top shelf liberal arts degree.

My personal thoughts:

-- I don't buy that the nation's most talented students can't handle the challenge, nor do I buy that competing for a playoff spot changes the focus on academics or the relationship between it and athletics. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, Pomona-Pitzer, Wash. U., Chicago, Carleton and all the other schools that get mentioned in the same breath as NESCAC schools are able to compete for playoff spots and maintain their standing. I've never heard of mass flunkings by athletes at Carnegie Mellon or Washington & Lee or whatever other nationally-known schools have made the postseason.  I'm guessing that it's not hurting the NESCAC basketball teams, cross country teams, crews and what have you.

I don't think anyone--not even the NESCAC presidents--has ever suggested that NESCAC students can't handle the challenge of managing the distraction from academics that the NCAA D-III football playoffs represent.   However, the NESCAC presidents have made it clear that they're not willing to offer that sort of a distraction from academics to the 80+ student athletes, managers and trainers involved in the program.  I'm too staunch a believer in the First Amendment freedom of association to criticize NESCAC or any of its member schools for making that choice for themselves.

Heck, *I* envy the NESCAC for its 120+ meeting rivalries, and its threeway rivalries, and the competitiveness and intensity of those rivalries, even though I have been lucky enough to participate in a storied top ten rivalry against the (vile) Union Dutchmen.  If I'd known how longstanding the series against WPI was, I'd have tried to make a much bigger deal about that--even though there is a trophy established for the game (featuring an obsolete piece of hardware), it never felt like that big a deal.  The Shotglass Trophy game v. Coast Guard was a bigger event, but that trophy has been retired.

[redswarm81]

Once you get past the arrogance factor (your opinion, to which you're entitled) and give it some thought, I think people look at what NESCAC teams do in basketball and other sports and would like to take a crack at them in football, and if the reasoning wasn't so suspect and hypocrisy so obvious, people wouldn't be so eager to discuss it.

Like here for instance. Not MY Opinion. Speaking generally for the side opposite yours, after years of following this discussion on the message boards and elsewhere, as you no doubt have as well.

Sorry that wasn't clear when I wrote "That's why people react they way they do initially."

Don't make it me vs. you. It's a discussion that's rather complex. Personally, I see various shades of grey moreso than black and white.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "arrogance factor."  I thought you were accusing the NESCAC schools of being arrogant by electing not to participate in both non-league play and playoffs for football.   If that's what you meant, I wasn't criticizing you for that opinion, I was just noting that it is an opinion.

I also didn't know that you were offering opinions of others besides yourself.

I must have misunderstood what you meant, since I wasn't being critical at all.  I enjoy it when you (and people) have and express your (and their) opinions.   

[formermule]

As a former player (as most of you probably are, if not current) I thought I would share my thoughts on this matter that sparks so much controversy. First of all I want to correct one misconception that most people believe is the reason for the deans and presidents of NESCAC colleges keeping their football teams from competing in playoffs. Most believe the reason is the fact that in the NESCAC academics come first and the students should be "back in the classroom as soon as possible" as some have alluded to above. Hence the presidents and deans will vote to refrain from extending the football season and allowing the teams to compete in playoffs.

However, if this were the reason then why are all the other sports allowed to compete in playoffs? Are the deans stereotyping football players as being less intelligent than their peers? I think not. One simple reason may be the fact that the NESCAC just really wants to emulate the rules of the Ivy League, although most would argue that the presidents of NESCAC colleges are a little smarter and understand the reasons these Ivy League rules exist. And in understanding this, they also believe the rules make perfect sense in a league that prides itself on the elite nature of its academics. So the reason why Ivy's and NESCAC schools alike refrain from allowing their football teams from competing in NCAA playoffs is this. When a team is playoff eligible, much more pressure is now put on the team, and the school to perform. This will in turn mean recruiting better football players. The result of this will be the lowering of academic standards for football recruits. So then, say a team does make the playoffs. There now is even more pressure to continue their streaks of success and further deterioration of the academic credentials required of football recruits is observed. This can be seen in many D1A-AA schools.

Now switching over to my opinions as a former player in the NESCAC. Do I wish I had the opportunity to compete against non-league teams and in the NCAA playoffs? Sure I do. I, along with my team worked just as hard as any other team that did receive that opportunity (as someone noted above). But again reiterating another comment above, I also believe that student/athletes that were smart enough to be admitted to a NESCAC school was well aware that their season would be comprised of 8 games and 8 games only. When I was in the recruiting process I remember the length of the season was one of the concerns I had with NESCAC schools. Did it stop me from going to one? Not a chance. Coupling the highly competitive athletics with a top notch liberal arts education was a no brainer. That is the compromise that you make. And that is the reason why the presidents of NESCAC colleges continue to keep the rules the way they are. Because they also realize the niche the NESCAC has and also the prestige associated with it. An old quote comes to mind when I hear discussions about NESCAC receiving playoff eligibility, "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Although I do think it would be cool to see how NESCAC schools stock up against other leagues among division 3, I don't think it is worth the possible implications in regard to academic standards. And like I said I'm pretty sure the NESCAC is and will continue to do well in providing top notch education/athletics without having to make any drastic rule changes.

[frank uible]

To my knowledge, no official representative of any NESCAC college has given an explanation of NESCAC's posture with respect to football - which, among other things, is stricter than the Ivy League in that it prohibits-out-of conference play and a 9th game in-conference and also imposes conference wide roster limits.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I have no particular issues with NESCAC's policy on football participation - it is their decision to make.  I DO have issues with them even being considered d3 in football if they will play no other teams, nor participate in the playoffs.  Let's face it - they are NESCAC intramural teams (or whatever the term should be for those who play other schools, but only within a very restricted clique).

[Yet Williams still has permanent title to the all-sports trophy! ]

[PA_wesleyfan]

I have no particular issues with NESCAC's policy on football participation - it is their decision to make.  I DO have issues with them even being considered d3 in football if they will play no other teams, nor participate in the playoffs.  Let's face it - they are NESCAC intramural teams (or whatever the term should be for those who play other schools, but only within a very restricted clique).

[Yet Williams still has permanent title to the all-sports trophy! ]

   Mr. Ypsi

I would agree. NO disrespect intended but how can these teams be compared to Mt.Union or Gallaudet? 

[redswarm81]

I have no particular issues with NESCAC's policy on football participation - it is their decision to make.  I DO have issues with them even being considered d3 in football if they will play no other teams, nor participate in the playoffs. 

I'm not being critical, I just don't understand.  Please help me out--you've stated a distinction where I can't see a difference.  You don't have an issue with NESCAC football being an exclusive regional competition, but you do have an issue with them being D-III.  The NCAA Policy Statement encourages regional competition, and even includes the following statement of purpose:

The purpose of the NCAA is to assist its members in developing the basis for consistent, equitable competition while minimizing infringement on the freedom of individual institutions to determine their own special objectives and programs.  The above statement articulates principles that represent a commitment to Division III membership and shall serve as a guide for the preparation of legislation by the division and for planning and implementation of programs by institutions and conferences.

By my reading, NESCAC is entirely in compliance with Division III's Policy.

Would you have issues if Division III playoffs were mandatory for all Division III schools?
Would you have issues with NESCAC if their schools awarded athletic scholarships to football players?
As long as NESCAC schools don't offer athletic scholarships, if NESCAC schools aren't permitted to be Division III for football, what ought they be permitted?

[Mr. Ypsi]

I have no particular issues with NESCAC's policy on football participation - it is their decision to make.  I DO have issues with them even being considered d3 in football if they will play no other teams, nor participate in the playoffs. 

I'm not being critical, I just don't understand.  Please help me out--you've stated a distinction where I can't see a difference.  You don't have an issue with NESCAC football being an exclusive regional competition, but you do have an issue with them being D-III.  The NCAA Policy Statement encourages regional competition, and even includes the following statement of purpose:

The purpose of the NCAA is to assist its members in developing the basis for consistent, equitable competition while minimizing infringement on the freedom of individual institutions to determine their own special objectives and programs.  The above statement articulates principles that represent a commitment to Division III membership and shall serve as a guide for the preparation of legislation by the division and for planning and implementation of programs by institutions and conferences.

By my reading, NESCAC is entirely in compliance with Division III's Policy.

Would you have issues if Division III playoffs were mandatory for all Division III schools?
Would you have issues with NESCAC if their schools awarded athletic scholarships to football players?
As long as NESCAC schools don't offer athletic scholarships, if NESCAC schools aren't permitted to be Division III for football, what ought they be permitted?

I did not state that clearly, and apologize.

NESCAC schools are clearly d3 members in good standing, but if they are entirely a separate entity in football, they should not be counted (IN FOOTBALL) for any NCAA purposes (e.g., the playoff ratio, rankings or All America teams, etc. - and, yes, I realize the NCAA doesn't do the latter).

I'm not saying NESCAC  schools should be booted out of d3.  I'm just saying that IN FOOTBALL they (by their own choice) are not IN d3.

[retagent]

I want to second K-Mack's alluding to the fact that learning occurs outside of the classroom. I've told many people in my life that I learned more outside the classroom during my college years than I did in the classroom. I don't mean to dismiss academics entirely, but I'm sure that the interactions with others has been more beneficial to me than some of the actual academic lessons which I have long since forgotten. I believe I learned how to think better in the classroom, but most of my life has been dealing with people, and learning to read, and analyze them, which is valuable whatever your life persuit may be. I actually think that the powers that be in the NESCAC are actually limiting the education of their student athletes by following the path they have selected.

[redswarm81]

I want to second K-Mack's alluding to the fact that learning occurs outside of the classroom. I've told many people in my life that I learned more outside the classroom during my college years than I did in the classroom. I don't mean to dismiss academics entirely, but I'm sure that the interactions with others has been more beneficial to me than some of the actual academic lessons which I have long since forgotten. I believe I learned how to think better in the classroom, but most of my life has been dealing with people, and learning to read, and analyze them, which is valuable whatever your life persuit may be. I actually think that the powers that be in the NESCAC are actually limiting the education of their student athletes by following the path they have selected.

I don't suppose that anyone, least of all the NESCAC school presidents, would disagree with K-Mack's point.

Do you think that Colby, Bowdoin and Bates football players learn less outside the classroom by "only" playing in 3 of the longest standing and most competitive rivalries in college football, than they might learn if they were also permitted to enter the NCAA playoffs?

I think this is what economists call "marginal utility."

[Jonny Utah]

I want to second K-Mack's alluding to the fact that learning occurs outside of the classroom. I've told many people in my life that I learned more outside the classroom during my college years than I did in the classroom. I don't mean to dismiss academics entirely, but I'm sure that the interactions with others has been more beneficial to me than some of the actual academic lessons which I have long since forgotten. I believe I learned how to think better in the classroom, but most of my life has been dealing with people, and learning to read, and analyze them, which is valuable whatever your life persuit may be. I actually think that the powers that be in the NESCAC are actually limiting the education of their student athletes by following the path they have selected.

They are doing better than the Swathmore and umass boston powers though....

[Trin9-0]

...the reason why Ivy's and NESCAC schools alike refrain from allowing their football teams from competing in NCAA playoffs is this. When a team is playoff eligible, much more pressure is now put on the team, and the school to perform. This will in turn mean recruiting better football players. The result of this will be the lowering of academic standards for football recruits. So then, say a team does make the playoffs. There now is even more pressure to continue their streaks of success and further deterioration of the academic credentials required of football recruits is observed. This can be seen in many D1A-AA schools.

formermule: I understand your logic, but this hasn't happened in basketball, baseball, etc. NESCAC schools are routinely in the running for national championships in almost every other NCAA Division III sport. Yet there has been no "arms race" in recruiting that has lowered the academic standards of the member institutions.

To suggest that it would be different in football is hypocritical.  Just as it is hypocritical for football to be excluded from inter-conference play or participation in the NCAA playoffs while all other NESCAC sports are not.

[K-Mack]

...the reason why Ivy's and NESCAC schools alike refrain from allowing their football teams from competing in NCAA playoffs is this. When a team is playoff eligible, much more pressure is now put on the team, and the school to perform. This will in turn mean recruiting better football players. The result of this will be the lowering of academic standards for football recruits. So then, say a team does make the playoffs. There now is even more pressure to continue their streaks of success and further deterioration of the academic credentials required of football recruits is observed. This can be seen in many D1A-AA schools.

formermule: I understand your logic, but this hasn't happened in basketball, baseball, etc. NESCAC schools are routinely in the running for national championships in almost every other NCAA Division III sport. Yet there has been no "arms race" in recruiting that has lowered the academic standards of the member institutions.

To suggest that it would be different in football is hypocritical.  Just as it is hypocritical for football to be excluded from inter-conference play or participation in the NCAA playoffs while all other NESCAC sports are not.

I agree with Trin 8-0, and I think most of us recognize that the NESCAC schools doing one thing in every sport but football, and doing another in football is the source of most of the confusion/discontent.

While I comprehend the arguments on all sides -- they are multi-faceted and not clear-cut -- I have yet to hear a really compelling reason as to the harm it would cause for one of the NESCAC's 10 teams each year to play an extra game or two. It's D3, you practice two hours a day, watch some film or lift on your free time, and maybe miss afternoon classes if you have to leave early for a road trip on Friday.

I don't believe the students' academics would be adversely affected in a significant way (although faculty might not appreciate the season's length). I don't believe the lure of being a powerful football school is more important in the NESCAC than being the highest-ranked USN&WR school, so admissions standards I doubt would be in danger. Some Division III schools need the exposure or the 100+ male students coming in every year, but no one in the NESCAC needs football for anything other than the joys of playing. I don't even think it would ruin the traditional season-ending rivalries. You telling me Amherst-Williams would be worse if there were a playoff bid for the winner?

I don't think a simple football game (or five) will alter the successful models of the NESCAC schools. Some tradition would go by the wayside. There would be side effects for sure. But the potential harm seems to me to be greatly outweighed by the potential positive experience each team and institution could enjoy each season, especially if you believe in the mission of athletics as an extension of the academic mission. A playoff game seems to me to only be a bonus, not a setback.

But if the folks in the NESCAC are happy, I'm happy. They don't seem to miss the playoffs, and the playoffs don't seem to miss them.

I also realize NESCAC students understand what they're getting and not many people on their campuses seem to be complaining, at least publically, and it's more a never-ending philsophical discussion on D3football.com than it is a true "controversy."

Remember when we used this thread to discuss rivalries?

[Trin9-0]

The following is an excerpt from an interview with Trinity College president Jimmy Jones that appeared in the Trinity school paper The Tripod.  I think his anwers give a little insight into the thought process of NESCAC presidents as to the role athletics should play in the league.

The full interview can be read here: http://media.www.trinitytripod.com/media/storage/paper520/news/2008/09/30/Opinions/Jimmy.Gets.Carvd.Up.President.Jones.Discusses.The.Trinitys.Athletic.Image-3459415.shtml?reffeature=recentlycommentedstoriestab

Q: What would you say to people who are concerned about the growing emphasis that is being placed on athletics?

A: If they're worried about it in Division I, they're worried about one of the greatest problems in American higher education. But NESCAC is at the top of the moral and ethical stature of Division III, and I think we're impregnable. Every year admissions keeps raising the requirements in NESCAC schools. There is always a tension between coaches and admissions, but it's part of the process. I really think that if people are that worried about NESCAC, they are really worrying about the wrong end of the problem in America. The problem is huge, but it is in Division I and it is mainly in football and basketball. All you have to do is go look at the graduation rate for Oklahoma State in basketball; it's a national disgrace. Most of those students are students of color and it's no better than indentured servitude. The schools just use these kids because of their physical prowess, put them in "gut classes" and they never end up graduating.

Q: Do you think the current NESCAC regulations, especially in regards to offseason practices, are appropriate?

A: I was in Boston yesterday for the NESCAC presidents meeting. It's amazing to me, the tenor of the discussions that we had. If the rest of American collegiate athletics came anywhere close to the bar that the NESCAC sets, one wouldn't see these horrible abuses of the system in order to win games and get television contracts. Many times at these meetings I feel like I'm in 6th-century Athens, listening to the great scholars extol the value of sports in an educational environment. So I don't worry about it at all as long as Hazleton and Robin Sheppard keep bringing in the same caliber of coaches; all I have to do is go to the games and cheer.