East Region Fan Poll

[Pat Coleman]

Gordon, thanks for the feedback.  Have you seen enough of Linfield & St Thomas (since it appears this debate, this year, assuming UMHB is locked into #1 in the south) to be comfortable with their strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis Del Val.   

Gordon -- guess your 80-plus games of Delaware Valley experience didn't impress 82. He wasn't interested in the contrary opinion, only assuming that we didn't know what we were talking about.

Pat: How is seeing Delaware Valley play so many games over the years relevant to whether or not this year's team is better than say, St. Thomas this year? Many of the 80+ games you speak of are largely irrelevant to a discussion of the 2011 teams relative power.

Not saying it is, but 82 asked for something specific, got it, then ignored it.

I understand that the East Region fans would love to have eight guaranteed spots for East Region teams but that isn't how it works. Each region gets what it earns. And since each region can have a different number of automatic bids, it doesn't make sense for it easier to get an at-large bid on one region than another.

[Doid23]

+k....there, I gave you a credit, so take a position now....

+K to you as well, that cracked me up...

[Doid23]

Every single primary criteria makes direct note that regions are what matters. The sport itself is regional. But come playoff time, that whole concept just shifts to something completely different. Why are regions so incredibly important right until we want to completely forget about them?

Exactly. Either make it a true regional playoff, or don't bother and just rank 'em, seed 'em and schedule them based on proximity. It really is quite inane.

[Bombers798891]

Gordon -- guess your 80-plus games of Delaware Valley experience didn't impress 82. He wasn't interested in the contrary opinion, only assuming that we didn't know what we were talking about.

Does this mean you guys should be listening to me about Ithaca? After all, if 82 is supposed to be impressed by 80+ games over seven years, then what's 200+ over the last 24? Shouldn't Pep be anointed the all-knowing sage of Alfred?

[gordonmann]

Gordon, thanks for the feedback.  Have you seen enough of Linfield & St Thomas (since it appears this debate, this year, assuming UMHB is locked into #1 in the south) to be comfortable with their strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis Del Val.  Or is it just you know DelVal really well and don't believe they can be one of the top 5 teams this year?  Is it possible that you may be overly critical of DelVal vs a team like one of the aforementioned that you may have only seen once this year?

Fair questions and I don't mind trying to answer them.

No, I haven't seen Linfield or St. Thomas enough to guage them against Del Val. I think they are both better than Del Val, but it's not based on anything objectively anchored in this year.  I've seen a lot of highly ranked teams over the years -- and not just UWW and Mount Union -- so I have an internal guage of whether a team is at that level.  But it is internal and subjective.

To the extent it's helpful, I can compare this year's Del Val team to last year's and I don't think it's as good. Nor is it as good as the 2006 team, at least not so far.  Neither of those past Del Val teams finished in the Top 4 in the country. In fact, neither of those teams was even the last East region team standing.  So I feel comfortable in my personal assessment that this isn't one of the fourth best teams in the country.

If the Aggies beat Lycoming and Widener, I'll reconsider that opinion.  And if others feel differently for whatever reason -- wanting to maintain the regional structure, wanting an East region team to be rewarded for finishing 10-0, not believing St. Thomas or Linfield is better than Del Val -- s'alright with me.

There's room for disagreement and logical conclusions either way.

[gordonmann]

Does this mean you guys should be listening to me about Ithaca? After all, if 82 is supposed to be impressed by 80+ games over seven years, then what's 200+ over the last 24? Shouldn't Pep be anointed the all-knowing sage of Alfred?

Go back and look at what SJF82 initially asked.  He was looking for input from someone who has seen Del Val more than once this year.  I have so I offered input.  He's not obliged to take it. I wasn't offended that he didn't.

And actually I do personally put more weight in your view of Ithaca than other posters who aren't as familiar with the school.

[AUKaz00]

Remember when the LLPP was the most active board?

Anyway, here's this week's rankings:

Week 9 Fan Poll 

Team	Record	Points	Last Rating	Next Week
1   Delaware Valley ( 5 )	8-0	67	2	at #9 Lycoming
2   Salisbury( 2 )	7-1	63	1	vs. #4 St. John Fisher
3   Hobart	6-0	55	3	vs. RPI
4   St. John Fisher	7-1	46	4	at #2 Salisbury
5   Kean	7-1	44	5	at William Paterson
6   Montclair State	7-1	34	6	at Rowan
7   Widener	8-1	26	8	Open Date
8   Cortland State	6-2	24	7	at Brockport State
9   Lycoming	7-1	19	9	vs. #1 Delaware Valley
10t Lebanon Valley	5-3	2	NR	at Wilkes
10t Western New England	8-1	2	NR	at Mass-Dartmouth

Dropped Out:
#10 Endicott


Also Receiving votes:               
Springfield 1
Trinity 1
Union 1

            
Voting Distribution:            

Delaware Valley (1,3,2,1,1,1,1)
Salisbury (2,1,1,2,2,3,3)
Hobart (3,2,4,3,3,5,2)
St. John Fisher (4,5,3,4,4,7,4)
Kean (7,4,5,5,5,2,5)
Montclair State (9,6,6,6,6,4,6)
Widener (5,7,8,7,9,8,7)
Cortland State (6,9,7,9,7,6,9)
Lycoming (8,8,9,8,8,9,8)
Lebanon Valley (NR,NR,10,NR,10,NR,NR)
Western New England (NR,10,NR,10,NR,NR,NR)
Springfield (NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,10,NR)
Trinity (10,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR)
Union (NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,10)



Key Matchups:
#9 Lycoming at #1 Delaware Valley
#4 St. John Fisher at #2 Salisbury

[Bombers798891]

Gordon, thanks for the feedback.  Have you seen enough of Linfield & St Thomas (since it appears this debate, this year, assuming UMHB is locked into #1 in the south) to be comfortable with their strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis Del Val.   

Gordon -- guess your 80-plus games of Delaware Valley experience didn't impress 82. He wasn't interested in the contrary opinion, only assuming that we didn't know what we were talking about.

Pat: How is seeing Delaware Valley play so many games over the years relevant to whether or not this year's team is better than say, St. Thomas this year? Many of the 80+ games you speak of are largely irrelevant to a discussion of the 2011 teams relative power.

Not saying it is, but 82 asked for something specific, got it, then ignored it.

I understand that the East Region fans would love to have eight guaranteed spots for East Region teams but that isn't how it works. Each region gets what it earns.

But that still doesn't answer the central question: What are we using we say a 10-0 DVC team didn't "earn" a #1 seed but Linfield did? We're guessing, plain and simple. We're applying our own perception, and our own opinion, and our own biases.

[AUKaz00]

Shouldn't Pep be anointed the all-knowing sage of Alfred?

That would be Pep's dad; he's only missed 3 home games since 1937!

[gordonmann]

I've always found it interesting that many of the best games Mount seems to get pre-Whitewater come from these supposedly weaker East teams. In 2006, Fisher gave them all they could handle, losing by 12. In 2007, Ithaca gave them a better game than anyone in the OAC did in the regular season, to mention nothing of the 48 point win Mount had in the semi-finals over Bethel. In 2008, Cortland hung with them a lot longer in the regional finals than Wheaton did in the National semis. Last year, Del Valley did no worse than Bethel in the national semis. Sure, lots of times, East teams get boat-raced by Mount. So what? Like that's some new thing exclusive to the East?

This is a really good counter argument to mine and a very defensible position. +K to you.

[gordonmann]

One more thought and then I'm done for at least a little while.

There are likely some folks from Del Val that read this board, just as they do the others. There are players, administrators and coaches who read what we write and don't post. 

Please don't interpret any of what I've said as a "knock" on the Aggies, this year or last year.  It's been a great personal privilege to cover these teams. 

Unless my writings make for good bulletin board material and motivate you against Lycoming and Widener.  In which case, I think you guys stink.

[pumkinattack]

Gordon, thanks for the feedback.  Have you seen enough of Linfield & St Thomas (since it appears this debate, this year, assuming UMHB is locked into #1 in the south) to be comfortable with their strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis Del Val.  Or is it just you know DelVal really well and don't believe they can be one of the top 5 teams this year?  Is it possible that you may be overly critical of DelVal vs a team like one of the aforementioned that you may have only seen once this year?

Fair questions and I don't mind trying to answer them.

No, I haven't seen Linfield or St. Thomas enough to guage them against Del Val. I think they are both better than Del Val, but it's not based on anything objectively anchored in this year.  I've seen a lot of highly ranked teams over the years -- and not just UWW and Mount Union -- so I have an internal guage of whether a team is at that level.  But it is internal and subjective.

To the extent it's helpful, I can compare this year's Del Val team to last year's and I don't think it's as good. Nor is it as good as the 2006 team, at least not so far.  Neither of those past Del Val teams finished in the Top 4 in the country. In fact, neither of those teams was even the last East region team standing.  So I feel comfortable in my personal assessment that this isn't one of the fourth best teams in the country.

If the Aggies beat Lycoming and Widener, I'll reconsider that opinion.  And if others feel differently for whatever reason -- wanting to maintain the regional structure, wanting an East region team to be rewarded for finishing 10-0, not believing St. Thomas or Linfield is better than Del Val -- s'alright with me.

There's room for disagreement and logical conclusions either way.

No that's great.  And truthfully, I probably believe that to be true as well.  I just don't know where the system allows for that sort of subjectivity and feel like the system, as with most rigid systems, is and will be used to shield/protect the decision makers as if they didn't have to use subjectivity in their process.  It's the weakness of the individuals (thinking of the Rowan AD a few years back) who would hide behind these "rules" rather than say "hey, we've gotten together, bent our minds around it and DelVal is a #2 or #3 seed and the best solution to our perceived views of strength given the regional constraints is to move MTU east" that bothers me.  Let's just call it what it is and move on, but that's not what happens.  And frankly apologists, many of whom have loyalties in other regions (not talking about the founder of this site, so no need to jump in and defend themselves here), use a defense that is subjective, but they don't really acknowledge it or respect that biases do exist and that we do the best to overcome those biases when making the decision. 

[Knightstalker]

Edit (Addendum): Also, wouldn't the NCAA want to attempt to line up the 4 teams they determine are the best to meet in the National Semifinals?  I don't think this is a horrible thing to do...

...except it often doesnt materialize....last year the Tommies HAD to get a #1 because we had to have the 4 best be #1....well funny thing happened on the way to Salem....they didnt even make it out of the North bracket that muc was shipped out of to make way for them

...and then, Bethel, who beat them 12-7, got MUCinized the next week....same 'ol story.....

+K for a new word.

[pg04]

Edit (Addendum): Also, wouldn't the NCAA want to attempt to line up the 4 teams they determine are the best to meet in the National Semifinals?  I don't think this is a horrible thing to do...

...except it often doesnt materialize....last year the Tommies HAD to get a #1 because we had to have the 4 best be #1....well funny thing happened on the way to Salem....they didnt even make it out of the North bracket that muc was shipped out of to make way for them

...and then, Bethel, who beat them 12-7, got MUCinized the next week....same 'ol story.....

So they were wrong, now they aren't allowed to be wrong when picking the "top 4 teams"?  I know that the NCAA Basketball tournament always matches the top 4 teams in the National Semifinals...

  I almost Wonder, if it were Wesley who had been moved in 4 years in a row, would we be having this discussion? It is my opinion that we probably wouldn't be. 

[pg04]

Of course, I am fighting a losing battle here, since no one else seems to agree with me.  Oh well,