East Region Fan Poll

[Pat Coleman]

Ok, so we all think then that Kean, DelVal and SJF are far superior to Hobart then?  Before it was that all those teams are much closer (like a page or two ago).  I'm really not interested in responding to Pat here simply because I've never witnessed him accept anyone else's opinion when it differs from him on anything (when we're discussing subjective matters that require critical thought - his defense will be something about how many teams he's seen play this year, but listening others, currently involved in the game is somehow not germane). 

How about this, Thomas More (Sorry SF, just trying to make a point).  Is a home loss to Waynesburg any different?  34 pts is a decent difference, especially when it's clear that Bart's pt total is inflated by LL homer FR. 

-1 -- seriously, you twist my mantra around to fit your situation, I'm going to respond. That's all I referenced. I didn't say anything about whether Hobart should be ranked. And I agree, the team that is probably the best candidate for exclusion is Thomas More, but my ballot is only one of 25. Thomas More was ranked too highly all season but there's next to nothing I can do about that.

I agree many voters float teams up when they keep winning -- not as many do in our poll as do in the AFCA poll, but it happens. Hobart spent too many early-season weeks not playing to take any advantage of voter float.

[ExTartanPlayer]

pumkin:

You have a point when mentioning Kean, DelVal, SJF...but check out my post looking at teams #22-25 again.  While you can certainly argue that Hobart compares favorably to SJF/Kean, or at least looks relatively close, you'd have to make a compelling argument that they're demonstrably better than all of those teams in the 20's before we even get to that point, and I'm not sure that's true.  Can you definitely say that Hobart's resume is better than Bethel or Baldwin-Wallace?  In my opinion, no.  It's certainly a SIMILAR resume, but can we state with certainty that Hobart is better?

You certainly have a point re: preseason projections and the like (in fact, I'm sure that's why Thomas More ended the season ranked).  TMC was coming off two straight undefeated seasons and drifted as high as the Top Ten in this year's poll.  Even after a disappointing finish to this year, most people probably kept them in the poll (near the bottom) just because of their recent momentum from the past couple years.

[Jonny Utah]

Jonny, I really mean this as a good-natured debate, but when you say this:

"I think many of the LL teams (Union, Rochester, RPI) could have given any E8 team a good game at the end of the season."

I'm basically going to repeat what Bombers said back to you: what makes you believe that's true?

Union beat the E8's fourth-place team, Springfield, by one touchdown at home.  Springfield got hammered by Salisbury and SJF and also lost to Alfred.  Perhaps I'm just arguing semantics, but I don't see how that means that Union could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

Rochester went 0-2 against the E8, getting destroyed by SJF early and losing to Alfred later (an Alfred team that had just lost two straight E8 games, giving up 69 and 54 points, and one of THOSE came against a mediocre Frostburg State team who wasn't in the top half of the E8).

RPI got steamrolled by Alfred to open the season and lost to LL bottom-feeder Merchant Marine to end it.  The only thing that suggests that they could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season is their upset win over Hobart, but considering that was sandwiched between two losses and came a few weeks after a home loss to E8 bottom-feeder Utica, I'm still not sure that I'm buying RPI giving "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

If RPI can give Hobart the same game Wesley can, what makes you think RPI can't play a good game at the end of the year?

If Union can then beat RPI, wouldn't you put them in the same boat?

Hey, this all comes down to common opponents and score watching from our computers.  We have to account for all that.  I just have a gut feeling that the LL is not as horrible as everyone is making them out to be.  Imagine if Hobart had their starting players?  I (a person looking at scores from a computer) would have to say they should beat Wesley.  I could be wrong but I agree that this is all good debate all around.

[Bombers798891]

Jonny, I really mean this as a good-natured debate, but when you say this:

"I think many of the LL teams (Union, Rochester, RPI) could have given any E8 team a good game at the end of the season."

I'm basically going to repeat what Bombers said back to you: what makes you believe that's true?

Union beat the E8's fourth-place team, Springfield, by one touchdown at home.  Springfield got hammered by Salisbury and SJF and also lost to Alfred.  Perhaps I'm just arguing semantics, but I don't see how that means that Union could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

Rochester went 0-2 against the E8, getting destroyed by SJF early and losing to Alfred later (an Alfred team that had just lost two straight E8 games, giving up 69 and 54 points, and one of THOSE came against a mediocre Frostburg State team who wasn't in the top half of the E8).

RPI got steamrolled by Alfred to open the season and lost to LL bottom-feeder Merchant Marine to end it.  The only thing that suggests that they could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season is their upset win over Hobart, but considering that was sandwiched between two losses and came a few weeks after a home loss to E8 bottom-feeder Utica, I'm still not sure that I'm buying RPI giving "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

I'll half agree with you. Here's my take--

Salisbury go back and forth with Union for 2 1/2 quarters, but considering the Dutchmen got lit up by Springfield, and Salisbury's defense is better than the Pride's, I think Union would fall, something like 45-28.  Salisbury would steamroll everyone else. Give me a break that RPI or Rochester would give them a game. Rochester would lose by 50 points if they were lucky. As for RPI, they allowed 30 points a game. Salisbury averaged 45. Salisbury would score 60 on them.

Fisher-- I think they could maybe lose to Union. Rochester though? Seriously, we've seen this movie a million times. Rochester isn't in their class. RPI might score a few TD's but that's it. The rest of the LL would do nothing against Fisher.

Alfred-- Would lose to Union. Rochester seems like a bad matchup, so I could see an upset. They'd beat RPI again, and take care of everyone else.

All that said, "come on man," Union would flat out murder Hartwick. Gallo would have 300 yards receiving in that game.

They'd also beat Ithaca soundly (the Bombers got much, much, worse as the season progressed.) If they played today on a neutral field, I'd take Union by either 20 or 27, depending on if they did something dumb, like kick to Dan Ruffrage. And they would beat Utica easily as well. Utica lost their last three games by a tidy score of 144-63 and were outscored by 94 points this season. Same with Frostburg. Frankly, I think they'd take Alfred too. And they already beat Springfield,

All told, I think Union would go 6-2 against the E8 today. 5-3 at the worst

And Frank says I hate Union...

[Bombers798891]

Jonny, I really mean this as a good-natured debate, but when you say this:

"I think many of the LL teams (Union, Rochester, RPI) could have given any E8 team a good game at the end of the season."

I'm basically going to repeat what Bombers said back to you: what makes you believe that's true?

Union beat the E8's fourth-place team, Springfield, by one touchdown at home.  Springfield got hammered by Salisbury and SJF and also lost to Alfred.  Perhaps I'm just arguing semantics, but I don't see how that means that Union could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

Rochester went 0-2 against the E8, getting destroyed by SJF early and losing to Alfred later (an Alfred team that had just lost two straight E8 games, giving up 69 and 54 points, and one of THOSE came against a mediocre Frostburg State team who wasn't in the top half of the E8).

RPI got steamrolled by Alfred to open the season and lost to LL bottom-feeder Merchant Marine to end it.  The only thing that suggests that they could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season is their upset win over Hobart, but considering that was sandwiched between two losses and came a few weeks after a home loss to E8 bottom-feeder Utica, I'm still not sure that I'm buying RPI giving "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

If RPI can give Hobart the same game Wesley can, what makes you think RPI can't play a good game at the end of the year?

If Union can then beat RPI, wouldn't you put them in the same boat?

Other than the fact that RPI's final game of the year saw them lose at home to the 6th place team in the LL and they needed a 4th-and-15 conversion to avoid being Monkey-Stomped?

Look at RPI's body of work for the season. Other than Hobart, zero quality wins. Several bad losses.

[lewdogg11]

You E8 guys are funny about Salisbury.  Salisbury blew out every team in the E8 too, so don't go thinking that there is a huge difference between all E8 teams vs. LL teams.  Your second best(Fisher) went up against the LL best(Hobart) and didn't fare well.

Salisbury was obviously in a class by themselves.

[Luv D3]

I have read through some of these posts  A lot of us are forgetting to mention how much familiarity of opponent is really worth. Within your league regardless if its E8 or LL, the fact of the matter is you know those teams you are playing inside and out. You can throw the records out when certain programs play one another. If I remember correctly a few years back Hartwick upset a Fisher team, and possibly blocked them from the playoffs(could be wrong) but I do know Fisher was heavily favored. Doesnt matter the year, Union Vs RPI always going to be a battle. I was at the Hobart vs RPI game and though Hobart didnt play great, it took a few scramble around throww it 45+ yrds down the field plays to beat them. I m taking nothing away from RPI because they won, but it just goes back to my point of teams know one another in a league very well.

I would say the LL has def been down over all the past few yrs, just look at what happened when SLU won it last year with a 5-5 overall record. However that same SLU team almost beat Alfred who beat FIsher and won the E8. I also think Springfield coming into the LL will make some noise right away bc teams are not use to seeing the trip option. If salisbuys stays a few more years in the E8, you are going to see them get beat, because teams are going to bemore familiar with them.

[Jonny Utah]

Jonny, I really mean this as a good-natured debate, but when you say this:

"I think many of the LL teams (Union, Rochester, RPI) could have given any E8 team a good game at the end of the season."

I'm basically going to repeat what Bombers said back to you: what makes you believe that's true?

Union beat the E8's fourth-place team, Springfield, by one touchdown at home.  Springfield got hammered by Salisbury and SJF and also lost to Alfred.  Perhaps I'm just arguing semantics, but I don't see how that means that Union could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

Rochester went 0-2 against the E8, getting destroyed by SJF early and losing to Alfred later (an Alfred team that had just lost two straight E8 games, giving up 69 and 54 points, and one of THOSE came against a mediocre Frostburg State team who wasn't in the top half of the E8).

RPI got steamrolled by Alfred to open the season and lost to LL bottom-feeder Merchant Marine to end it.  The only thing that suggests that they could have given "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season is their upset win over Hobart, but considering that was sandwiched between two losses and came a few weeks after a home loss to E8 bottom-feeder Utica, I'm still not sure that I'm buying RPI giving "any" E8 team a good game by the end of the season.

If RPI can give Hobart the same game Wesley can, what makes you think RPI can't play a good game at the end of the year?

If Union can then beat RPI, wouldn't you put them in the same boat?

Other than the fact that RPI's final game of the year saw them lose at home to the 6th place team in the LL and they needed a 4th-and-15 conversion to avoid being Monkey-Stomped?

Look at RPI's body of work for the season. Other than Hobart, zero quality wins. Several bad losses.

Yea but my whole point is that if they beat Hobart, they could probably beat other teams don't you think?  Salsibury and Hobart basically do the same thing against Wesley, and no one in the E8 even came close to Salisbury this year.  As Luvd3 kind of points out below, maybe some of this familiarity comes into play with some league games, but I still say that you can argue Hobart is the best team in the east this year, and that other LL teams proved they could hang with the best team in the east.

I could also make arguements that every LL team could lose to the top NEFC teams in any given game.  But my main points were that I felt the LL was a little underated due to the fact that their middle teir teams could beat some of the top teams in the east.  Maybe my score watching/compaing is too much when I am only looking at 3-4 crossover games Hobart/SJF, Hobart/Wesley, SJF/Del Val and SJF/JHU, but I still stand behind my opinion that Hobart was a top 15 team in the country this year.

[ExTartanPlayer]

All told, I think Union would go 6-2 against the E8 today. 5-3 at the worst.

Re: the fact that they'd go either 6-2 or 5-3 in the E8, that was exactly my point.  There's a difference between "By the end of the season, Union was playing well enough to go 6-2/5-3 in the E8" and "Union would give ANY team from the Empire 8 a game" - and I think it's a pretty big difference.

I essentially agree with your description of how Union would perform against most of the E8, with the exception of Utica (see below).  Clearly a notch below Salisbury and SJF.  Probably a toss-up with Alfred, Springfield, Utica (after all, if we're going to give them credit for beating Springfield at the end of the season, doesn't that early season loss to Utica have to count for something too?), and maybe even Frostburg (again, Frostburg did beat Alfred and Utica).  They MIGHT beat all four of those teams, but I don't think that's a lock at all; 3-1 probably sounds right.  The only teams that I think you can "guarantee" that they'd beat are probably Ithaca and Hartwick.

Re: Utica & where they might stack up compared to the LL.  Yes, they were blown out in their last three games - against the three of the E8's four best teams.  They went 3-0 against the LL and beat Union head-to-head.

I second your comments above re: RPI.

[Bombers798891]

You E8 guys are funny about Salisbury.  Salisbury blew out every team in the E8 too, so don't go thinking that there is a huge difference between all E8 teams vs. LL teams.  Your second best(Fisher) went up against the LL best(Hobart) and didn't fare well.

Salisbury was obviously in a class by themselves.

Your second-best team wasn't exactly striking fear into the hearts of the Empire 8. Sure, we can play the "if they played today" game, but when they actually played? That second-best team was losing to the 6th and 7th place team in the E8.

Additionally...

1. Salisbury did not blow out Ithaca. It was 14-7 with 5:00 to go. I have hated on the Bombers all season, but give them that.

2. The E8 was 9-2 against the LL (and the LL didn't play the best team in the E8).

3. The E8 went 22-9 OOC overall vs. 8-15. Half the eight wins the LL put up OOC were from conferences we do nothing but routinely mock on these boards

4. The E8 went 4-2 in the NCAAs, the LL went 0-1

I'm no LL hater, but the facts are the facts. These add up—at least to me—that yes, the E8 was better than the LL. Yes, we had our bad teams too (Cough, Ithaca) but much like we've talked about with Hobart, there's a much more impressive body of work in the E8

Yeah, if Hobart had gotten a better draw, they might have won a couple of games in the NCAAs. Well, next time, don't play an 8-game schedule and lose to a terrible RPI team and you won't draw Wesley in the opening round.

Yeah, if they played today, Union would beat Utica and Ithaca and Salve. Well, then don't wait until Week 4 to kick it into gear next time and you won't have that problem

[Bombers798891]

Yea but my whole point is that if they beat Hobart, they could probably beat other teams don't you think?  Salsibury and Hobart basically do the same thing against Wesley, and no one in the E8 even came close to Salisbury this year.  As Luvd3 kind of points out below, maybe some of this familiarity comes into play with some league games, but I still say that you can argue Hobart is the best team in the east this year, and that other LL teams proved they could hang with the best team in the east.

No. I think they beat Hobart because the Statesman had an epic special teams meltdown that cost them 13 points.

[Jonny Utah]

Yea but my whole point is that if they beat Hobart, they could probably beat other teams don't you think?  Salsibury and Hobart basically do the same thing against Wesley, and no one in the E8 even came close to Salisbury this year.  As Luvd3 kind of points out below, maybe some of this familiarity comes into play with some league games, but I still say that you can argue Hobart is the best team in the east this year, and that other LL teams proved they could hang with the best team in the east.

No. I think they beat Hobart because the Statesman had an epic special teams meltdown that cost them 13 points.

So other teams wouldn't be possible of having meltdowns on special teams, offense or defense?

[ExTartanPlayer]

Salisbury blew out every team in the E8 too, so don't go thinking that there is a huge difference between all E8 teams vs. LL teams.  Your second best(Fisher) went up against the LL best(Hobart) and didn't fare well.

Salisbury was obviously in a class by themselves.

First, I agree that Salisbury was in a class by themselves in the E8.  I would point out, however, that overall the E8 killed the LL in intra-conference play, and Salisbury did not account for ANY of those wins.

OK, so the LL champ beat the E8 runnerup.

The LL's runnerup (Union) went up against the E8's sixth and seventh best and lost.  They did eventually beat the fourth-best, but that doesn't entirely wash away the stink of those early-season losses.

Going down the list, the LL's third and fourth best went a combined 0-4 against the E8 (with zero of those coming against Salisbury).  It goes this way all the way down - at every level, the E8 team would almost certainly beat the LL team in the same conference place (or probably even the place above it), with the POSSIBLE exception of Hobart.  After Hobart, the only win by any LL team over any E8 team was the Union-Springfield game.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I have read through some of these posts  A lot of us are forgetting to mention how much familiarity of opponent is really worth. Within your league regardless if its E8 or LL, the fact of the matter is you know those teams you are playing inside and out. You can throw the records out when certain programs play one another.

I do want to give +k here for one key point.  Conference games CAN have puzzling results because of the familiarity factor...but that still doesn't mean that we can EXCUSE an in-conference loss to a 4-5 team when ranking everybody.

[Bombers798891]

Yea but my whole point is that if they beat Hobart, they could probably beat other teams don't you think?  Salsibury and Hobart basically do the same thing against Wesley, and no one in the E8 even came close to Salisbury this year.  As Luvd3 kind of points out below, maybe some of this familiarity comes into play with some league games, but I still say that you can argue Hobart is the best team in the east this year, and that other LL teams proved they could hang with the best team in the east.

No. I think they beat Hobart because the Statesman had an epic special teams meltdown that cost them 13 points.

So other teams wouldn't be possible of having meltdowns on special teams, offense or defense?

I think that if you're banking on two blocked field goals and a fumbled kickoff, you're going to lose to many of these top teams you keep mentioning RPI could hang with. Quite badly.

But mainly, I think ignoring the other 8 weeks of RPI's schedule is a major issue with your argument. RPI and Rochester went 4-5 for crying out loud. Suddenly, these teams are going to throw scares into the "Top" East teams? Salisbury would wipe the floor with both of them. They would wipe the floor with a combined RPI/Rochester team. So would Fisher. Wesley wouldn't even break a sweat.

Rochester hasn't even had a winning season since 2007. Again: Body. Of. Work.