East Region Fan Poll

[Bombers798891]

Heck, the Bombers were 3-1 at one point, with a road win over the eventual 2nd-place team in the LL, and their only loss to the eventual E8 champ, on the road. Then, the next week, they were one play away from beating Fisher. Does this mean they could hang with the East top teams? Of course not, because we know that Ithaca lost to Fisher, finished the year 1-5, and were generally a crappy team. Snapshots are just that. Looking at a team's entire season is more usefull

[Jonny Utah]

bombers, I am not saying the LL is better than the E8, or that RPI could go 10-0 if they played great special teams every game.  I'm not even saying RPI was a good football team. I simply said that I think the LL is a little underated, and that some of the middle of the road teams in that conference seem to be able to beat their leagues top teams (one of which I think is a top 15 team), and this is something that the E8 teams couldn't do in their conference with Salisbury.

And I said the end of the season when I was making my point.  RPIs first 8 games or Ithaca's first 4 don't mean anything in regards to my point.

[Bombers798891]

I said the end of the season when I was making my point.  RPIs first 8 games or Ithaca's first 4 don't mean anything in regards to my point.

The end of the season, where RPI lost to the 6th place team in the LL? That was RPI's end of the season. Not the Hobart game.

But you're ignoring that too. You're basically saying "Look at how they played Hobart." Well, yeah Johnny. Every halfway decent team could hang with the top teams if they could replicate how they played at their best. Everyone could hang with great teams if the only thing we decided to look at was how they looked in their best week.

If Jason Hendel had completed 65% of his passes, and had 3 total TD's and zero turnovers like he did against Union, Ithaca  might have been beaten Salisbury, and Fisher, and Alfred, and Utica. The point is, he never played like that again. Which is, in large part, why Ithaca lost all those games.

The point I'm making is yes, RPI beat Hobart. And they never played that well any other week of the season. When you're discussing a hypothetical game, body of work always matters.

[Jonny Utah]

I said the end of the season when I was making my point.  RPIs first 8 games or Ithaca's first 4 don't mean anything in regards to my point.

The end of the season, where RPI lost to the 6th place team in the LL? That was RPI's end of the season. Not the Hobart game.

But you're ignoring that too. You're basically saying "Look at how they played Hobart." Well, yeah Johnny. Every halfway decent team could hang with the top teams if they could replicate how they played at their best. Everyone could hang with great teams if the only thing we decided to look at was how they looked in their best week.

If Jason Hendel had completed 65% of his passes, and had 3 total TD's and zero turnovers like he did against Union, Ithaca  might have been beaten Salisbury, and Fisher, and Alfred, and Utica. The point is, he never played like that again. Which is, in large part, why Ithaca lost all those games.

The point I'm making is yes, RPI beat Hobart. And they never played that well any other week of the season. When you're discussing a hypothetical game, body of work always matters.

The facts are that RPI did in fact beat Hobart at the end of the season.  In my opinion, I think RPI might be able to do that to another team.  Ithaca, Springfield, Hartwick, Frostburg or Utica sure didn't prove to me that they could beat a top E8 team or Hobart late in the season.

I don't think Hendel could complete 65% of his passes, because he has not shown me anything that would indicate that he could do that.  RPI did show me that they could in fact beat a good team. 

Factoring in RPIs last game only shows that they can still lose to crappy teams, but has no bearing on their ability to win big games, since they beat Hobart the week before in the second to last game of the season.  Hendel never threw 65% (I am assuming we are making up these numbers for Hendel), so I would have no basis to speculate whether or not Hendel could ever throw 65%.

And in theory, yes, every halfway decent tema could hang with the top teams if they could replicate how they played their best, but you know what?  The E8 teams did not do that and RPI did do that.

I am working right now and have to type fast, but am I really off the wall on my opinions here?

[WashedUp]

I don't think Hendel could complete 65% of his passes, because he has not shown me anything that would indicate that he could do that.  RPI did show me that they could in fact beat a good team. 

Factoring in RPIs last game only shows that they can still lose to crappy teams, but has no bearing on their ability to win big games, since they beat Hobart the week before in the second to last game of the season.  Hendel never threw 65% (I am assuming we are making up these numbers for Hendel), so I would have no basis to speculate whether or not Hendel could ever throw 65%.

You missed the part where Hendel had these numbers against Union.

18/26 = 69.23%

[Jonny Utah]

I don't think Hendel could complete 65% of his passes, because he has not shown me anything that would indicate that he could do that.  RPI did show me that they could in fact beat a good team. 

Factoring in RPIs last game only shows that they can still lose to crappy teams, but has no bearing on their ability to win big games, since they beat Hobart the week before in the second to last game of the season.  Hendel never threw 65% (I am assuming we are making up these numbers for Hendel), so I would have no basis to speculate whether or not Hendel could ever throw 65%.

You missed the part where Hendel had these numbers against Union.

18/26 = 69.23%

No I didn't even look.  I thought bombers was throwing out a number that Hendel did not have.  We can use 75% for this argument then.  Or if you want to use 65% that's fine too.  But you wouldn't find me saying that he couldn't do it against other teams then.

[Jonny Utah]

Let's put it this way.

If Union was eligible for an ECAC bowl game and they played Alfred in that Bowl game, do you really think Union could have played in that bowl game since they didn't even apply to the ECAC for a bid?

[Frank Rossi]

Yeah, if they played today, Union would beat Utica and Ithaca and Salve. Well, then don't wait until Week 4 to kick it into gear next time and you won't have that problem

If you insist... 

[ExTartanPlayer]

The facts are that RPI did in fact beat Hobart at the end of the season.  In my opinion, I think RPI might be able to do that to another team.  Ithaca, Springfield, Hartwick, Frostburg or Utica sure didn't prove to me that they could beat a top E8 team or Hobart late in the season.

And in theory, yes, every halfway decent team could hang with the top teams if they could replicate how they played their best, but you know what?  The E8 teams did not do that and RPI did do that.

I am working right now and have to type fast, but am I really off the wall on my opinions here?

Sorry, Jonny...but yes, I do think you're off the wall on your opinion.  You've now moved to the point where you're arguing that RPI is more dangerous tio a "Top" team than all of the aforementioned E8 teams - despite a laundry list of results demonstrating that the vast majority of the E8 is superior to the vast majority of the LL, in which RPI finished tied for third/fourth - because of a single upset win against Hobart.

As Bombers has been telling you - the fact that RPI did manage to upset Hobart merely illustrates that they were capable, on their very best day and Hobart's very worst day, of beating ONE top team.  You continue to cling to the fact that the bottom two-thirds of the E8 was not capable of that since they didn't do it, again, ignoring ALL of the results that would suggest that most of those E8 teams are better than RPI (in some cases, probably a LOT better).  Again, to wit - the Empire 8 annihilated the LL, up and down the ranks, and that was with ZERO results from Salisbury (who we can essentially exclude from the discussion).  Bart (LL #1) beat SJF (E8 #2) and Union (LL#2) beat Springfield (E8 #4).  Offsetting that, Union (LL #2) lost to E8 #6 and E8 #7, Rochy (LL #3A) lost to SJF (E8 #2) and Alfred (E8 #3A), RPI (LL#3B) lost to Alfred (E8 #3A) and Utica (E8 #6), SLU (LL #5) also lost to Alfred and Utica, and Merchant Marine lost to Springfield.

That is a LONG list of results (between teams that finished in relatively comparable spots in the two conferences) demonstrating that the vast majority of the E8 teams were far superior to the LL counterparts in the same place.  If you REALLY, truly think that RPI is better (or, more dangerous, or whatever) than all of those E8 teams because they managed to upset Hobart...I mean, REALLY?  You don't think that the two Empire 8 teams that BEAT RPI might have been capable of a similar effort?  Alfred beat RPI by 30 points!!!

[Jonny Utah]

The facts are that RPI did in fact beat Hobart at the end of the season.  In my opinion, I think RPI might be able to do that to another team.  Ithaca, Springfield, Hartwick, Frostburg or Utica sure didn't prove to me that they could beat a top E8 team or Hobart late in the season.

And in theory, yes, every halfway decent team could hang with the top teams if they could replicate how they played their best, but you know what?  The E8 teams did not do that and RPI did do that.

I am working right now and have to type fast, but am I really off the wall on my opinions here?

Sorry, Jonny...but yes, I do think you're off the wall on your opinion.  You've now moved to the point where you're arguing that RPI is more dangerous tio a "Top" team than all of the aforementioned E8 teams - despite a laundry list of results demonstrating that the vast majority of the E8 is superior to the vast majority of the LL, in which RPI finished tied for third/fourth - because of a single upset win against Hobart.

As Bombers has been telling you - the fact that RPI did manage to upset Hobart merely illustrates that they were capable, on their very best day and Hobart's very worst day, of beating ONE top team.  You continue to cling to the fact that the bottom two-thirds of the E8 was not capable of that since they didn't do it, again, ignoring ALL of the results that would suggest that most of those E8 teams are better than RPI (in some cases, probably a LOT better).  Again, to wit - the Empire 8 annihilated the LL, up and down the ranks, and that was with ZERO results from Salisbury (who we can essentially exclude from the discussion).  Bart (LL #1) beat SJF (E8 #2) and Union (LL#2) beat Springfield (E8 #4).  Offsetting that, Union (LL #2) lost to E8 #6 and E8 #7, Rochy (LL #3A) lost to SJF (E8 #2) and Alfred (E8 #3A), RPI (LL#3B) lost to Alfred (E8 #3A) and Utica (E8 #6), SLU (LL #5) also lost to Alfred and Utica, and Merchant Marine lost to Springfield.

That is a LONG list of results (between teams that finished in relatively comparable spots in the two conferences) demonstrating that the vast majority of the E8 teams were far superior to the LL counterparts in the same place.  If you REALLY, truly think that RPI is better (or, more dangerous, or whatever) than all of those E8 teams because they managed to upset Hobart...I mean, REALLY?  You don't think that the two Empire 8 teams that BEAT RPI might have been capable of a similar effort?  Alfred beat RPI by 30 points!!!

Let me go back to my original point(s) and I will clarify it further now that I am home.  That main point was that Hobart should be a top 25 team, and I would but them as high as 15 and as low as 20.  To me, it doesn't matter how many games they played.  They could have gone 2-0 with victories over UWW and MUC and we would all probably agree that they would be the best team in the country.  I can understand the point that if they had 2 more games they could have won or lost 2 more times, and that is something that JHU and these other teams actually did do.  Hobarts win over SJF and their close loss to Wesley tells me that they have a top 25 team.  If they didn't lose to RPI I might put them around 10-15, and if they lost to Union I might put them at 25-30 (seeing that we have SJF up there as well).  We can look at Hobarts injury factor at many different ways (do we rank them based on what they did the whole season or what they did at the end?)

I never said RPI was more dangerous than those other teams.  But they did do something that those other teams could not do, and that is beat a great team.  That is a fact.  I use that fact to back my point up that the Liberty League was underated in my opinon.  I don't think they are a top 10 conference, and I don't think they are better than the E8.  From what I did hear though, Union (a team who got crushed by an E8 average team) then beat one of the E8s above average teams.  These are very small minor opinions, not facts, and not things that anyone can say is right or wrong.  I only said I had a gut feeling that the LL was better than their records show.  You can't explain gut feelings in scores or numbers.  Just like you can't predict which teams are going to win on any given day.

And again, I'm really only talking about Hobart here, not these other teams. 

Why don't you tell me why Hobart can hang with SJF and Wesley, but struggle in their conference? 

[wesleydad]

Ok, so we all think then that Kean, DelVal and SJF are far superior to Hobart then?  Before it was that all those teams are much closer (like a page or two ago).  I'm really not interested in responding to Pat here simply because I've never witnessed him accept anyone else's opinion when it differs from him on anything (when we're discussing subjective matters that require critical thought - his defense will be something about how many teams he's seen play this year, but listening others, currently involved in the game is somehow not germane). 

How about this, Thomas More (Sorry SF, just trying to make a point).  Is a home loss to Waynesburg any different?  34 pts is a decent difference, especially when it's clear that Bart's pt total is inflated by LL homer FR. 

I think the real answer is that Hobart started off completely off the map after two mediocre years and becasue they didn't get that natural inflation over the course of the season that others did, they didn't make the grade.  That's fine, but it seems to me it would be honest to accept that many voters start with a preseason projection and drift teams up and if you don't start high you damn well run the table in the regular season.

pumkinattack, being one of only a few or maybe the only one that saw all 4 of these teams play I think that Hobart would be in the game with each of them.  I think they could beat Kean, the already beat Fisher, and Fisher beat DelVal.  In the end I think the teams from 12 - 13 down are pretty much the same.  Hobart played Wesley tough, took advantage of mistakes and almost beat the 3rd ranked team in the country.

[SUADC]

Congrats to Salisbury University for Finishing 5th in the nation in Division III Learfield
Sports Directors' Cup Standings.

To see the rest of the poll: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/2011-12/misc_non_event/dec21dIIIreleaseandstandings.pdf

[Bombers798891]

I don't think Hendel could complete 65% of his passes, because he has not shown me anything that would indicate that he could do that.  RPI did show me that they could in fact beat a good team. 

Factoring in RPIs last game only shows that they can still lose to crappy teams, but has no bearing on their ability to win big games, since they beat Hobart the week before in the second to last game of the season.  Hendel never threw 65% (I am assuming we are making up these numbers for Hendel), so I would have no basis to speculate whether or not Hendel could ever throw 65%.

You missed the part where Hendel had these numbers against Union.

18/26 = 69.23%

No I didn't even look.  I thought bombers was throwing out a number that Hendel did not have.  We can use 75% for this argument then.  Or if you want to use 65% that's fine too. But you wouldn't find me saying that he couldn't do it against other teams then.

So you would feel comfortable with me saying, "If Jason Hendel were Ithaca's starting QB next year, he would complete 70% of his passes" on the basis of that one game?

[dlippiel]

The loss to RPI really hurt Bart in regards to their place in the poll. To dlip they could fall anywhere in the 25-12ish places in the poll.

[dlippiel]

Yea but my whole point is that if they beat Hobart, they could probably beat other teams don't you think?  Salsibury and Hobart basically do the same thing against Wesley, and no one in the E8 even came close to Salisbury this year.  As Luvd3 kind of points out below, maybe some of this familiarity comes into play with some league games, but I still say that you can argue Hobart is the best team in the east this year, and that other LL teams proved they could hang with the best team in the east.

No. I think they beat Hobart because the Statesman had an epic special teams meltdown that cost them 13 points.

Bart Special Teams

Is he going to punt it??? Wait, he keeps ****ing holding it......still holding it...still...WTF is Cragg calling here?...Oh forget it, he just punted it away.