East Region Fan Poll

[Bombers798891]

Dutch Boy agrees and this is exactly his previous point. As unimpressive as Alfred has been he still believes wholeheartedly they defeat the likes of MIT and West Conn in a sound manner.

Let's not forget, the year that Alfred went 12-1, they were:

-Tied with Husson in the 4th quarter at home
-Trailing Bridgewater in the 4th quarter at home.

They played three New England teams that year, all at home, and won by 7, 6, and 6 (in overtime).

I don't disagree that the NY schools are a step above the NE schools, on the whole. And they do win a majority of the games. But the games have been more competitive than they're made out to be.

[AUPepBand]

Dutch Boy agrees and this is exactly his previous point. As unimpressive as Alfred has been he still believes wholeheartedly they defeat the likes of MIT and West Conn in a sound manner.

Let's not forget, the year that Alfred went 12-1, they were:

-Tied with Husson in the 4th quarter at home
-Trailing Bridgewater in the 4th quarter at home.

They played three New England teams that year, all at home, and won by 7, 6, and 6 (in overtime).

I don't disagree that the NY schools are a step above the NE schools, on the whole. And they do win a majority of the games. But the games have been more competitive than they're made out to be.

Spot on, Bombers.

Pep's initial post on the issue presented both sides of a a long-standing argument of "who is better? an undefeated team with a weaker schedule or a one- or two-loss team that has played a stronger schedule but faltered a bit?" Pep concludes that most fans (excepting of course Bombers798891 who amazes Pep with his objectivity and fair and balanced observations) are biased depending upon which side of the argument their team currently resides.

Historically, in 1971, University of Bridgeport (8-1) was selected over Alfred (8-0) to face an undefeated Hampden-Sydney team in the Knute Rockne Bowl, a predecessor to the NCAA D3 playoffs. Pep argued at that time that the committee was wrong in selecting a one-loss team over his undefeated Saxons. Bridgeport defeated Hampden-Sydney and every team they played in 1972 including another Knute Rockne Bowl win.

In the opening game of the 1973 season, Alfred hosted Bridgeport and the Purple Knights prevailed, 14-8. Mind you, it was two seasons later, but the programs were evenly-matched and it made for a great game. But the Purple Knights prevailed in "The Pit" in front of a crowd of more than 7,000 partisan Alfred fans.

Pep concludes that the argument can only be settled on the field...and as Bombers has clearly presented, the best of New England are competitive with the best of NY. Thank God we've got the NCAA Tournament where it is settled on the field.

On Saxon Warriors!

[wesleydad]

Dutch Boy agrees and this is exactly his previous point. As unimpressive as Alfred has been he still believes wholeheartedly they defeat the likes of MIT and West Conn in a sound manner.

Let's not forget, the year that Alfred went 12-1, they were:

-Tied with Husson in the 4th quarter at home
-Trailing Bridgewater in the 4th quarter at home.

They played three New England teams that year, all at home, and won by 7, 6, and 6 (in overtime).

I don't disagree that the NY schools are a step above the NE schools, on the whole. And they do win a majority of the games. But the games have been more competitive than they're made out to be.

Spot on, Bombers.

Pep's initial post on the issue presented both sides of a a long-standing argument of "who is better? an undefeated team with a weaker schedule or a one- or two-loss team that has played a stronger schedule but faltered a bit?" Pep concludes that most fans (excepting of course Bombers798891 who amazes Pep with his objectivity and fair and balanced observations) are biased depending upon which side of the argument their team currently resides.

Historically, in 1971, University of Bridgeport (8-1) was selected over Alfred (8-0) to face an undefeated Hampden-Sydney team in the Knute Rockne Bowl, a predecessor to the NCAA D3 playoffs. Pep argued at that time that the committee was wrong in selecting a one-loss team over his undefeated Saxons. Bridgeport defeated Hampden-Sydney and every team they played in 1972 including another Knute Rockne Bowl win.

In the opening game of the 1973 season, Alfred hosted Bridgeport and the Purple Knights prevailed, 14-8. Mind you, it was two seasons later, but the programs were evenly-matched and it made for a great game. But the Purple Knights prevailed in "The Pit" in front of a crowd of more than 7,000 partisan Alfred fans.

Pep concludes that the argument can only be settled on the field...and as Bombers has clearly presented, the best of New England are competitive with the best of NY. Thank God we've got the NCAA Tournament where it is settled on the field.

On Saxon Warriors!

I agree, you can not make a blanket statement about a region, although the country seems to be able to against the east since we keep getting smoked in the late playoff rounds.  Is it possible W Conn would be 4-3 right now with Alfred's schedule?  They do not have a win like Alfred's over Cortland, but they would likely beat Thiel, did beat Buff St, toss up with Morrisville?  So they could be 3-4 with that schedule.  Some still have Alfred in the top 10, then why not W Conn?  I know I have a bias, I limit the number of teams from the same league to avoid overloading the top 10 with one conference.

[Ice Bear]

Dutch Boy agrees and this is exactly his previous point. As unimpressive as Alfred has been he still believes wholeheartedly they defeat the likes of MIT and West Conn in a sound manner.

Let's not forget, the year that Alfred went 12-1, they were:

-Tied with Husson in the 4th quarter at home
-Trailing Bridgewater in the 4th quarter at home.

They played three New England teams that year, all at home, and won by 7, 6, and 6 (in overtime).

I don't disagree that the NY schools are a step above the NE schools, on the whole. And they do win a majority of the games. But the games have been more competitive than they're made out to be.

A great point for sure bombers and Dutch Boy agrees. However, he still feels that this year NE really doesn't have that one or two teams that are usually capable of stepping up. DB has seen some very talented UWNE teams, a very talented Husson team last season, obviously the Purple Drank teams of awhile ago, and a couple others. Endicott maybe this year(with a nice win of Hobart, however DB believes that result would be different today)?

Framingham is probably the best team IDBHO in NE right now but that could certainly change. Listen, DB likes NE football, a lot. He just believes that this season, and overall, it really is a step below. He stands by his thoughts that an unimpressive Saxon team would still defeat the two highest NE vote get'ers this season in MIT and West Conn. His main point is that because of record they should not be ranked higher than teams we believe, or most believe, with a fair amount of certainty, they would lose to in a head to head match up. Believe DB, if West Conn or MIT proves to be more than he believes he'll certainly give them due credit. Yet based both on results this season and NE's past against most non-NE ER teams, he feels the way he feels.

[Bombers798891]

His main point is that because of record they should not be ranked higher than teams we believe, or most believe, with a fair amount of certainty, they would lose to in a head to head match up.

Why not? Rankings aren't even based on actual H2H results. In fact, it's basically impossible to do them that way.

In Mach's ranking for example, Alfred is 11 spots below Cortland, but 1 spot ahead of Utica. Utica, meanwhile, is 1 spot ahead of a Morrisville team that handled them with ease. Christopher Newport made Rowan look like a JV team, at Rowan, and is two spots below them.

(I don't find anything at fault with Mach's rankings, I'm just using them as an example)

[Ice Bear]

His main point is that because of record they should not be ranked higher than teams we believe, or most believe, with a fair amount of certainty, they would lose to in a head to head match up.

Why not? Rankings aren't even based on actual H2H results. In fact, it's basically impossible to do them that way.

In Mach's ranking for example, Alfred is 11 spots below Cortland, but 1 spot ahead of Utica. Utica, meanwhile, is 1 spot ahead of a Morrisville team that handled them with ease. Christopher Newport made Rowan look like a JV team, at Rowan, and is two spots below them.

(I don't find anything at fault with Mach's rankings, I'm just using them as an example)

...because DB's interpretation of this poll is that it is meant to represent the BEST teams in the East Region. The best based upon our (those who avidly follow D3 ball) observations and knowledge when it comes to D3 ball played in this region of the country. Now, if that interpretation is incorrect (which this has always been DB's interpretation of the poll) than that is where DB could certainly be off here. With that said his interpretation is also his preference as he can't stand polls in which teams that "everyone on the planet knows are not very good" are ranked higher than teams that everyone knows would defeat them at least 8 out of 10 times. Of course he also knows this can be said at times about polls in many sports...maybe minus D1 hockey (where the knowledge of teams from weaker conferences is obvious).

Take a look at the most recent D1 poll from USCHO.com:

1   Notre Dame
2   St. Cloud State
3   Minnesota Duluth
4   Ohio State
5   Minnesota
6   Providence
7   Minnesota State
8   Cornell
9   Denver
10   Penn State
11   Union
12   Michigan 1-2
13   Princeton
14   Wisconsin
15   Bowling Green
16   Massachusetts
17   North Dakota 1-2-1
18   Northeastern 2-2
19   Western Michigan 3-2
20   Quinnipiac 3-0

Now obviously there is a much smaller pool to choose from in D1 hockey as opposed to D3 football but the Atlantic Conference is similar, DB's believes, to the NE conferences in D3 FB. You often have a top team or two in that conference that ****ing runs through it yet very rarely, if ever, makes a big mark (minus RIT making a run a few years back). Yet notice North Dakota at 1-2-1 ranked ahead of Quinnipiac at 3-0 and there isn't an Atlantic Hockey team to be found anywhere. This is the correct ranking regardless of records. Now usually by mid-season or the end of the season possibly one team from the Atlantic will begin to get votes or maybe crack the top 20. However dlip can't remember if a team from that league has EVER cracked the top 10 minus RIT a few years back AFTER the tourney was over.

Dont' see RPI here

[MRMIKESMITH]

I'm just waiting for the ERFP to be released?

[wesleydad]

Let the debate end or begin, here it is.

   Total   
1   60   Brockport
2   54   Frostburg
3   48   RPI
4   39   Salisbury
5   33   Ithaca
6   27   Wesley
7   21   Cortland
8   19   Del Val
9   10   Montclair
10   8   MIT
      
orv   5   W Conn
orv   3   Rowan
orv   3   Alfred

Vote Breakdown                  
Brockport   1   1   1   1   1   1
Frostburg   2   2   2   2   2   2
RPI           3   3   3   3   3   3
Salisbury   4   4   5   4   4   6
Ithaca   7   7   6   5   5   5
Wesley   9   8   4   6   7   4
Cortland   6   6   7   10   6   9
Del Val   5   5   8   7   x   10
Montclair   8   x   10   x   9   7
MIT         10   9   x   8   10   x
                  
W Conn   x   10   9   9   x   x
Rowan   x   x   x   x   8   x
Alfred   x   x   x   x   x   8

Key East Region Games this week

Montclair v Wesley
Salisbury v Rowan

Voters            
Wesleydad, The Osprey, Rams 1102, UfanBill, MANDGSU, Dutch Boy            

[Bartman]

Let the debate end or begin, here it is.

   Total                              Hansen  Composite D3 Polls/Rankings
1   60   Brockport           1. Brockport
2   54   Frostburg           2. Frosty
3   48   RPI                    3.Wesley ( The Rowan loss was a forgivable game fart?)
4   39   Salisbury            4. RPI
5   33   Ithaca                5. Ithaca
6   27   Wesley               6. Cortland
7   21   Cortland             7.Salisbury
8   19   Del Val               8. Hobart ( This implies improvement recognition, SOS strength,LL bias?, despite Endicott loss)
9   10   Montclair            9.Alfred    (beating Cortland is big and maybe bias to E8)
10   8   MIT                    10. Montclair( a legitimate recognition)
      
orv   5   W Conn
orv   3   Rowan
orv   3   Alfred

Vote Breakdown                  
Brockport   1   1   1   1   1   1
Frostburg   2   2   2   2   2   2
RPI           3   3   3   3   3   3
Salisbury   4   4   5   4   4   6
Ithaca   7   7   6   5   5   5
Wesley   9   8   4   6   7   4
Cortland   6   6   7   10   6   9
Del Val   5   5   8   7   x   10
Montclair   8   x   10   x   9   7
MIT         10   9   x   8   10   x
                  
W Conn   x   10   9   9   x   x
Rowan   x   x   x   x   8   x
Alfred   x   x   x   x   x   8

Key East Region Games this week

Montclair v Wesley
Salisbury v Rowan

Voters            
Wesleydad, The Osprey, Rams 1102, UfanBill, MANDGSU, Dutch Boy

After all the good and legitimate debate here, I wanted to look at Hansen's composite of all the rankings and it is pretty darn close to the ERFP. I think the Hansen composite is more likely an indication of the strength of the teams( actual results, strength of opponents and other statistical factors ...so "good loses" count) and hurts undefeated teams like MIT and West Conn if their schedule is weaker. I think both polls are pretty good, and we will never know without the rest of the season and the playoffs, but I think the Hansen composite is probably closer to a true power ranking...IMHO.  Thanks for the discussion by everyone, pretty interesting stuff from a bunch of nerdy D3 Football fans.

[wesleydad]

Let the debate end or begin, here it is.

   Total                              Hansen  Composite D3 Polls/Rankings
1   60   Brockport           1. Brockport
2   54   Frostburg           2. Frosty
3   48   RPI                    3.Wesley ( The Rowan loss was a forgivable game fart?)
4   39   Salisbury            4. RPI
5   33   Ithaca                5. Ithaca
6   27   Wesley               6. Cortland
7   21   Cortland             7.Salisbury
8   19   Del Val               8. Hobart ( This implies improvement recognition, SOS strength,LL bias?, despite Endicott loss)
9   10   Montclair            9.Alfred    (beating Cortland is big and maybe bias to E8)
10   8   MIT                    10. Montclair( a legitimate recognition)
      
orv   5   W Conn
orv   3   Rowan
orv   3   Alfred

Vote Breakdown                  
Brockport   1   1   1   1   1   1
Frostburg   2   2   2   2   2   2
RPI           3   3   3   3   3   3
Salisbury   4   4   5   4   4   6
Ithaca   7   7   6   5   5   5
Wesley   9   8   4   6   7   4
Cortland   6   6   7   10   6   9
Del Val   5   5   8   7   x   10
Montclair   8   x   10   x   9   7
MIT         10   9   x   8   10   x
                  
W Conn   x   10   9   9   x   x
Rowan   x   x   x   x   8   x
Alfred   x   x   x   x   x   8

Key East Region Games this week

Montclair v Wesley
Salisbury v Rowan

Voters            
Wesleydad, The Osprey, Rams 1102, UfanBill, MANDGSU, Dutch Boy

After all the good and legitimate debate here, I wanted to look at Hansen's composite of all the rankings and it is pretty darn close to the ERFP. I think the Hansen composite is more likely an indication of the strength of the teams( actual results, strength of opponents and other statistical factors ...so "good loses" count) and hurts undefeated teams like MIT and West Conn if their schedule is weaker. I think both polls are pretty good, and we will never know without the rest of the season and the playoffs, but I think the Hansen composite is probably closer to a true power ranking...IMHO.  Thanks for the discussion by everyone, pretty interesting stuff from a bunch of nerdy D3 Football fans.

Wesley cant be 3 with 2 loses, Hobart and Alfred cant be in with 3 loses.  1 good loss is ok, 2 is eh, 3 is not good not matter what.

[TheOsprey]

I get it. But just for fun I will figure out where Wesley should be.  My original thought is that they are the second best team in the east.  They beat Del Val so no matter what happens they stay ahead of Del Val.  They lost to Frostburg and Rowan so I have to put Frostburg and Rowan ahead of them based on actual results.  So with just these 4 and Brockport I would my rankings would be Brockport, Frostburg, Rowan, Wesley, and Del Val.  Now looking at Rowan they lost to Frostburg and CNU, so that means I have to put CNU ahead of Rowan, etc. etc. etc.  I dont think Rowan is better than Wesley, but they did beat them.  I just find it hard to keep Wesley as a top 3 or 4 team when they have lost twice, just like I can't move Rowan into the top 10 even after they beat Wesley because they lost to Frostburg and CNU, who I don't think should be in just because Rowan beat Wesley and they beat Rowan.

Now I can say that I put Montclair in with 2 loses ahead of Wesley because in my opinion their 2 loses, competitive to Frostburg and Salisbury are better than Wesley's loses to Frostburg and Rowan. I have Ithaca ahead of both of them based on who they lost to, Brockport and RPI, being better loses than either Montclair or Wesley.  I also took another look at Stevenson, with loses to Frostburg and Del Val, but could not have them jump Wesley based on common opponents.

After moving things around, you will be glad to know that W Conn gets bumped out of my top 10.

I like the conversation, nice to hear other opinions since we all already know our own.

Ya lost me--  Wesleydad.   

Great job on doing this poll.  Very good discussion.  It's about to get more interesting!! 😎

[tweisman5]

Let the debate end or begin, here it is.

   Total                              Hansen  Composite D3 Polls/Rankings
1   60   Brockport           1. Brockport
2   54   Frostburg           2. Frosty
3   48   RPI                    3.Wesley ( The Rowan loss was a forgivable game fart?)
4   39   Salisbury            4. RPI
5   33   Ithaca                5. Ithaca
6   27   Wesley               6. Cortland
7   21   Cortland             7.Salisbury
8   19   Del Val               8. Hobart ( This implies improvement recognition, SOS strength,LL bias?, despite Endicott loss)
9   10   Montclair            9.Alfred    (beating Cortland is big and maybe bias to E8)
10   8   MIT                    10. Montclair( a legitimate recognition)
      
orv   5   W Conn
orv   3   Rowan
orv   3   Alfred

Vote Breakdown                  
Brockport   1   1   1   1   1   1
Frostburg   2   2   2   2   2   2
RPI           3   3   3   3   3   3
Salisbury   4   4   5   4   4   6
Ithaca   7   7   6   5   5   5
Wesley   9   8   4   6   7   4
Cortland   6   6   7   10   6   9
Del Val   5   5   8   7   x   10
Montclair   8   x   10   x   9   7
MIT         10   9   x   8   10   x
                  
W Conn   x   10   9   9   x   x
Rowan   x   x   x   x   8   x
Alfred   x   x   x   x   x   8

Key East Region Games this week

Montclair v Wesley
Salisbury v Rowan

Voters            
Wesleydad, The Osprey, Rams 1102, UfanBill, MANDGSU, Dutch Boy

After all the good and legitimate debate here, I wanted to look at Hansen's composite of all the rankings and it is pretty darn close to the ERFP. I think the Hansen composite is more likely an indication of the strength of the teams( actual results, strength of opponents and other statistical factors ...so "good loses" count) and hurts undefeated teams like MIT and West Conn if their schedule is weaker. I think both polls are pretty good, and we will never know without the rest of the season and the playoffs, but I think the Hansen composite is probably closer to a true power ranking...IMHO.  Thanks for the discussion by everyone, pretty interesting stuff from a bunch of nerdy D3 Football fans.

Wesley cant be 3 with 2 loses, Hobart and Alfred cant be in with 3 loses.  1 good loss is ok, 2 is eh, 3 is not good not matter what.

The Hansen Ratings are still week 7 composite, thus explaining Wesley being 3rd. I expect to see the drop your expecting as well when the composite is updated later this week.

[Jonny Utah]

His main point is that because of record they should not be ranked higher than teams we believe, or most believe, with a fair amount of certainty, they would lose to in a head to head match up.

Why not? Rankings aren't even based on actual H2H results. In fact, it's basically impossible to do them that way.

In Mach's ranking for example, Alfred is 11 spots below Cortland, but 1 spot ahead of Utica. Utica, meanwhile, is 1 spot ahead of a Morrisville team that handled them with ease. Christopher Newport made Rowan look like a JV team, at Rowan, and is two spots below them.

(I don't find anything at fault with Mach's rankings, I'm just using them as an example)

...because DB's interpretation of this poll is that it is meant to represent the BEST teams in the East Region. The best based upon our (those who avidly follow D3 ball) observations and knowledge when it comes to D3 ball played in this region of the country. Now, if that interpretation is incorrect (which this has always been DB's interpretation of the poll) than that is where DB could certainly be off here. With that said his interpretation is also his preference as he can't stand polls in which teams that "everyone on the planet knows are not very good" are ranked higher than teams that everyone knows would defeat them at least 8 out of 10 times. Of course he also knows this can be said at times about polls in many sports...maybe minus D1 hockey (where the knowledge of teams from weaker conferences is obvious).

Take a look at the most recent D1 poll from USCHO.com:

1   Notre Dame
2   St. Cloud State
3   Minnesota Duluth
4   Ohio State
5   Minnesota
6   Providence
7   Minnesota State
8   Cornell
9   Denver
10   Penn State
11   Union
12   Michigan 1-2
13   Princeton
14   Wisconsin
15   Bowling Green
16   Massachusetts
17   North Dakota 1-2-1
18   Northeastern 2-2
19   Western Michigan 3-2
20   Quinnipiac 3-0

Now obviously there is a much smaller pool to choose from in D1 hockey as opposed to D3 football but the Atlantic Conference is similar, DB's believes, to the NE conferences in D3 FB. You often have a top team or two in that conference that ****ing runs through it yet very rarely, if ever, makes a big mark (minus RIT making a run a few years back). Yet notice North Dakota at 1-2-1 ranked ahead of Quinnipiac at 3-0 and there isn't an Atlantic Hockey team to be found anywhere. This is the correct ranking regardless of records. Now usually by mid-season or the end of the season possibly one team from the Atlantic will begin to get votes or maybe crack the top 20. However dlip can't remember if a team from that league has EVER cracked the top 10 minus RIT a few years back AFTER the tourney was over.

Dont' see RPI here

No Boston College or Boston University in the top 20.  Wow. 

[wesleydad]

I get it. But just for fun I will figure out where Wesley should be.  My original thought is that they are the second best team in the east.  They beat Del Val so no matter what happens they stay ahead of Del Val.  They lost to Frostburg and Rowan so I have to put Frostburg and Rowan ahead of them based on actual results.  So with just these 4 and Brockport I would my rankings would be Brockport, Frostburg, Rowan, Wesley, and Del Val.  Now looking at Rowan they lost to Frostburg and CNU, so that means I have to put CNU ahead of Rowan, etc. etc. etc.  I dont think Rowan is better than Wesley, but they did beat them.  I just find it hard to keep Wesley as a top 3 or 4 team when they have lost twice, just like I can't move Rowan into the top 10 even after they beat Wesley because they lost to Frostburg and CNU, who I don't think should be in just because Rowan beat Wesley and they beat Rowan.

Now I can say that I put Montclair in with 2 loses ahead of Wesley because in my opinion their 2 loses, competitive to Frostburg and Salisbury are better than Wesley's loses to Frostburg and Rowan. I have Ithaca ahead of both of them based on who they lost to, Brockport and RPI, being better loses than either Montclair or Wesley.  I also took another look at Stevenson, with loses to Frostburg and Del Val, but could not have them jump Wesley based on common opponents.

After moving things around, you will be glad to know that W Conn gets bumped out of my top 10.

I like the conversation, nice to hear other opinions since we all already know our own.

Ya lost me--  Wesleydad.   

Great job on doing this poll.  Very good discussion.  It's about to get more interesting!! 😎

Osprey, just showing that you cant just go by what you think, results have to count for something.

[MRMIKESMITH]

I get it. But just for fun I will figure out where Wesley should be.  My original thought is that they are the second best team in the east.  They beat Del Val so no matter what happens they stay ahead of Del Val.  They lost to Frostburg and Rowan so I have to put Frostburg and Rowan ahead of them based on actual results.  So with just these 4 and Brockport I would my rankings would be Brockport, Frostburg, Rowan, Wesley, and Del Val.  Now looking at Rowan they lost to Frostburg and CNU, so that means I have to put CNU ahead of Rowan, etc. etc. etc.  I dont think Rowan is better than Wesley, but they did beat them.  I just find it hard to keep Wesley as a top 3 or 4 team when they have lost twice, just like I can't move Rowan into the top 10 even after they beat Wesley because they lost to Frostburg and CNU, who I don't think should be in just because Rowan beat Wesley and they beat Rowan.

Now I can say that I put Montclair in with 2 loses ahead of Wesley because in my opinion their 2 loses, competitive to Frostburg and Salisbury are better than Wesley's loses to Frostburg and Rowan. I have Ithaca ahead of both of them based on who they lost to, Brockport and RPI, being better loses than either Montclair or Wesley.  I also took another look at Stevenson, with loses to Frostburg and Del Val, but could not have them jump Wesley based on common opponents.

After moving things around, you will be glad to know that W Conn gets bumped out of my top 10.

I like the conversation, nice to hear other opinions since we all already know our own.

Ya lost me--  Wesleydad.   

Great job on doing this poll.  Very good discussion.  It's about to get more interesting!! 😎

Osprey, just showing that you cant just go by what you think, results have to count for something.

Unless its DI FBS Football.