East Region Fan Poll

[Caz Bombers]

on the likelihood of how they might fare on neutral fields against the rest of us, I would put Middlebury anywhere from 1-4.

I'm curious (and I'm actually curious, haven't seen a NESCAC football game in years), what would make you think that? 1-4 seems pretty lofty. Yes, they are undefeated in the NESCAC, but they have won 4 games by a total of 13 points, and squeaked by 0-6 Colby 27-26. Do you think the level of play in the NESCAC is that high?  Obviously, no way to tell, but 1-4 would seem to say you do.

yeah, I kinda do. NESCAC teams tend to be a cut above in the vast majority of other sports, stands to reason they're getting a similar relative talent edge in football as well.

Due to their success in (most) other sports, I also SUSPECT they would probably fare quite well in football.  BUT ... there is not one molecule of evidence one way or the other.  Until the NESCAC presidents decide to actually join D3 in football, the only logically sound policy is to just ignore their existence in making comparisons.

agree wholeheartedly

[UfanBill]

The NESCAC was formed back in 1971. Most of you know Union was a member from inception and dropped out (the reasons weren't clear but probably involved hockey ) in 1977. Union's biggest football rival is of course RPI but back in the day they also had rivalry games with Williams and Hamilton. They played Middlebury and Trinity into the '80s. I've been to games at all those schools...But that was then, this is now. The NESCAC schools have tremendous endowments (example: millions from Williams alum George Steinbrenner) which allows them to treat their athletes top class. Many have superior athletic facilities. Do they have better players? You could make that assumption. They certainly have the pieces in place to recruit the best.

The NESCAC board on this website gets a lot of action. Read it sometime. Many of the posters have been contributing for years. Infrequently I'll go on it, usually to ask a question or get an opinion and have always been respectfully received. Maybe because many are "old curmudgeons" like me. 

I've asked the NESCAC board about their feelings of not participating in the tourney. There's mixed response. Some would relish the opportunity, some are worried about "playing too many games" and damaging the academics but all are quite content to go with whatever the administrations decide and be satisfied with it. There is some movement on the scheduling side. Last year the NESCAC added a ninth game and now play a balanced schedule. This year they mixed up that schedule changing dates of rivalry games that had stood for years.  Maybe they'll join the rest of D3 someday.     

[Mr. Ypsi]

The NESCAC was formed back in 1971. Most of you know Union was a member from inception and dropped out (the reasons weren't clear but probably involved hockey ) in 1977. Union's biggest football rival is of course RPI but back in the day they also had rivalry games with Williams and Hamilton. They played Middlebury and Trinity into the '80s. I've been to games at all those schools...But that was then, this is now. The NESCAC schools have tremendous endowments (example: millions from Williams alum George Steinbrenner) which allows them to treat their athletes top class. Many have superior athletic facilities. Do they have better players? You could make that assumption. They certainly have the pieces in place to recruit the best.

The NESCAC board on this website gets a lot of action. Read it sometime. Many of the posters have been contributing for years. Infrequently I'll go on it, usually to ask a question or get an opinion and have always been respectfully received. Maybe because many are "old curmudgeons" like me. 

I've asked the NESCAC board about their feelings of not participating in the tourney. There's mixed response. Some would relish the opportunity, some are worried about "playing too many games" and damaging the academics but all are quite content to go with whatever the administrations decide and be satisfied with it. There is some movement on the scheduling side. Last year the NESCAC added a ninth game and now play a balanced schedule. This year they mixed up that schedule changing dates of rivalry games that had stood for years.  Maybe they'll join the rest of D3 someday.     

Agreed.  I read it regularly; post rarely (no info to post).   One time that I did post, I noted that with NO OOC games and NO postseason, they were essentially just a multi-campus intramurals.  That was the one time I was NOT respectfully received!  Several posters took extreme umbrage, thinking I was slurring them for poor discipline, poor coaching, whatever.  To my delight, Pat himself defended me as not guilty on those counts and simply meant that they were a 'closed loop' - which is the very definition of 'intramurals'.  As I've said in probably every NESCAC post, I SUSPECT they would compete quite well, but if they decline to compete, they ARE multi-campus intramurals!

BTW, at 71 I think I qualify as an "old curmudgeon".

[Doid23]

Well, they were always good at other sports, even back in the 80's. So it would stand to reason that they were the same in football. They had their way with Union in the 70's,  until U ascended into one of the top programs in the east in the 80's, and then, not so much.
Of course, the big difference between football and the rest of the NESCAC sports is that they can compete for a National Title, and Football can't. I think that makes a huge difference in the athletes you get. NESCAC is the gold standard for lacrosse, but if they couldn't compete for a 'Ship, I don't think they would get the same level of talent. Don't get me wrong, I respect NESCAC, and they are certainly great academic institutions, and the old school part of me digs that winning a league title in football means something.
But I'd  imagine that they would struggle today with the perennial east powers, such as Ithica, Cortland, Wesley, Del Val, etc. so it would be really hard to convince me that they could be ranked 1-4 in the East. Top 10, maybe. Unfortunately, we will never know.

[Ithaca798891]

Of course, the big difference between football and the rest of the NESCAC sports is that they can compete for a National Title, and Football can't. I think that makes a huge difference in the athletes you get. NESCAC is the gold standard for lacrosse, but if they couldn't compete for a 'Ship, I don't think they would get the same level of talent. Don't get me wrong, I respect NESCAC, and they are certainly great academic institutions, and the old school part of me digs that winning a league title in football means something.

I think this is a salient point

[MRMIKESMITH]

Well, they were always good at other sports, even back in the 80's. So it would stand to reason that they were the same in football. They had their way with Union in the 70's,  until U ascended into one of the top programs in the east in the 80's, and then, not so much.
Of course, the big difference between football and the rest of the NESCAC sports is that they can compete for a National Title, and Football can't. I think that makes a huge difference in the athletes you get. NESCAC is the gold standard for lacrosse, but if they couldn't compete for a 'Ship, I don't think they would get the same level of talent. Don't get me wrong, I respect NESCAC, and they are certainly great academic institutions, and the old school part of me digs that winning a league title in football means something.
But I'd  imagine that they would struggle today with the perennial east powers, such as Ithica, Cortland, Wesley, Del Val, etc. so it would be really hard to convince me that they could be ranked 1-4 in the East. Top 10, maybe. Unfortunately, we will never know.

I agree that maybe the Top teams would get into Top 10 of the East Region, but I disagree with the Lacrosse statement, I think Salisbury is the Gold Standard for Lacrosse 

[Oline89]

Another stumbling block is the need to recruit 20+ contributing athletes every year to field a competitive football team.  This can be an issue when the school has very high academic standards and small class sizes.  It is much easier to work around when recruiting 2-4 basketball players per year.  JHU has success, but their undergraduate enrollment is over 6000, compared to Amherst of around 1850. 

[Ice Bear]

Ice Bear thinks the level of play in the NESCAC is quite good. Their best 1/2 would always be in the discussion for a place in the ER top 10 IIBHO. Ice like to occasionally watch a Saturday afternoon NESCAC game on the puter.

[Machiavelli]

Just because the NESCAC is competitive in other sports, doesn't mean they'd be competitive in football. That's like saying Union or RPI could compete in D1 football because their hockey teams are D1 and competitive some years. It's not apples to apples. That doesn't mean the NESCAC is below or even above the rest of D3 or the East. It means no one knows for sure. It's all about what you believe really. Can't even just give it 'the eye test'. I've seen some great HS teams that would probably get destroyed by Anna Maria(well, maybe that is a stretch...).

My assessment is that the historical great teams of the NESCAC would be top 5 in the East in their respective years, but their best team each year could range between 3-10 in the East depending on the year. In this specific year, I think Ithaca and Salisbury would beat the best of the NESCAC by a minimum 3-4 touchdowns. I'd go further to say Wesley, Union, Cortland and Delaware Valley would do the same. I'd put Middlebury and Williams in the class(or even slightly below) of RPI, WPI, Hobart, Endicott, etc this year.

[Jonny Utah]

I probably watch more Nescac games than any other d3 team now and to be honest I can't really tell the difference.  Maybe, just maybe the Liberty Leagues defenses look bigger, stronger and faster but I've thought about this a lot and really can't come up with a good answer.  Mach has a pretty good assessment that I agree with.

[Pat Coleman]

Any argument involving D-I is a red herring. But I also think the NESCAC could compete at the D-III level, but wouldn't walk in as a competitor. Lack of spring practice, and a truncated training camp gives players generally fewer reps. They play fewer games but 36 over a four-year career instead of 40 is not as big a gap as it was when they played 32. Basketball competed at the D-III level, but it took a few years and was not automatic.

In addition, football in D-III in this part of the country doesn't have a ton of national contenders outside of the NESCAC, unlike hockey and lacrosse, which I use because they are similar sports in terms of big rosters. I do recognize, yes, that NESCAC rosters are not particularly New England-centric. However, I would certainly include an unbeaten NESCAC team among my top 10 in the East most years, and a 9-0 NESCAC team might make my final Top 25 ballot.

It is really hard to compete nationally with a roster of 75.

[MRMIKESMITH]

Any argument involving D-I is a red herring. But I also think the NESCAC could compete at the D-III level, but wouldn't walk in as a competitor. Lack of spring practice, and a truncated training camp gives players generally fewer reps. They play fewer games but 36 over a four-year career instead of 40 is not as big a gap as it was when they played 32. Basketball competed at the D-III level, but it took a few years and was not automatic.

In addition, football in D-III in this part of the country doesn't have a ton of national contenders outside of the NESCAC, unlike hockey and lacrosse, which I use because they are similar sports in terms of big rosters. I do recognize, yes, that NESCAC rosters are not particularly New England-centric. However, I would certainly include an unbeaten NESCAC team among my top 10 in the East most years, and a 9-0 NESCAC team might make my final Top 25 ballot.

It is really hard to compete nationally with a roster of 75.

I know the NJAC compromised with the CNU, Salisbury, and Wesley to increase the roster limit from 100 to 125 for players to practice and play in JV games, however in the past I know Salisbury would bring in 150 to 200 players. With that I think the talent for those programs took a huge hit. 

[Ice Bear]

Ice Bear says this is a good discussion and all points make sense...also he did not mean the top half (1/2 as he posted) of the NESCAC would be in the discussion of the East Region top 10 he meant the first and second (#1 and #2) best teams from the conference would be in the discussion.

[Nescacman]

NESCACMAN here from the "NESCAC Board"....please don't be too harsh on us, although we played in the NESCAC, we were recruited by Union and have a very close bond to that school (we were even in Philly to see them win the Frozen 4....#rolldutchmen!):

A few points that may or may not be of interest:

1. The NESCAC isn't just competitive in other D3 sports, one could certainly argue that it is the best D3 sports conference in the country. 5 of the top 14 teams in last years Leerfield Cup were members of the NESCAC (Williams, Middlebury, Tufts, Amherst, Wesleyan). Bowdoin was 18th.

https://nacda.com/documents/2019/6/11//DIIIJune12Overallupdate.pdf?id=3667

2. NESCAC Presidents will never agree to participate in the D3 football play-offs until the Ivy League Presidents agree to participate in the FCS play-offs. Just the way it is.

3. We don't know how NESCAC football would do in 2019 against the upper echelon of D3, but several of the "better" programs in the 'CAC field JV teams that play the better non-NESCAC JV programs in New England. We know for certain that the NESCAC JV teams hold their own and often win. Not a great point of reference, but it is something.

4. If the 'CAC Presidents ever did allow their football teams to play in the play-offs, I can guarantee that they would give the ADs the tools necessary to be successful (directly or though Alumni donations). That would include larger rosters. We would be first in line to write a check.

Hope that is helpful...

[Doid23]

NESCACMAN here from the "NESCAC Board"....please don't be too harsh on us, although we played in the NESCAC, we were recruited by Union and have a very close bond to that school (we were even in Philly to see them win the Frozen 4....#rolldutchmen!):

A few points that may or may not be of interest:

1. The NESCAC isn't just competitive in other D3 sports, one could certainly argue that it is the best D3 sports conference in the country. 5 of the top 14 teams in last years Leerfield Cup were members of the NESCAC (Williams, Middlebury, Tufts, Amherst, Wesleyan). Bowdoin was 18th.

https://nacda.com/documents/2019/6/11//DIIIJune12Overallupdate.pdf?id=3667

2. NESCAC Presidents will never agree to participate in the D3 football play-offs until the Ivy League Presidents agree to participate in the FCS play-offs. Just the way it is.

3. We don't know how NESCAC football would do in 2019 against the upper echelon of D3, but several of the "better" programs in the 'CAC field JV teams that play the better non-NESCAC JV programs in New England. We know for certain that the NESCAC JV teams hold their own and often win. Not a great point of reference, but it is something.

4. If the 'CAC Presidents ever did allow their football teams to play in the play-offs, I can guarantee that they would give the ADs the tools necessary to be successful (directly or though Alumni donations). That would include larger rosters. We would be first in line to write a check.

Hope that is helpful...

Interesting post, Nescacman, +K.
I actually don't have a problem with NESCAC football not participating in playoffs, like I said, makes winning the league title, which is achievable, very important. This is especially true given how top heavy this era of DIII football is, and how uneven the resources and commitment is even in the Top 25.
But since the league title is all that matters, I do wish that like the Ivy's, NESCAC would play some OOC games against other non-NESCAC teams. I'm sure playing Lafayette, Holy Cross, Georgetown, Colgate, etc, is good for the Ivy programs, and i'm sure the players and fans enjoy the different teams.