East Region Fan Poll

[union89]

East Region Fan Poll - Week 2 (9/12/09)

#	School (1st votes)	Record	Pts	Prev.	This Week
1	Cortland State( 5 )	1-0	87	3	vs. #3 Rowan
2	Delaware Valley( 1 )	2-0	80	6	vs. Wesley
3	Rowan( 2 )	1-0	70	7	at #1 Cortland State
4	Alfred( 2 )	2-0	67	5	vs. St. Lawrence
5	Union	1-0	47	NR	at Muhlenberg
6	Ithaca	1-1	39	1	vs. Widener
7	Wilkes	2-0	36	NR	Open Date
8	RPI	1-0	35	8	vs. Utica
9	St. John Fisher	1-1	33	9	vs. Rochester
10	Springfield	2-0	28	10	Open Date

Others Receiving votes:      
Hobart 11
Albright 8
Montclair State 5
Widener 4


Dropping out: #2 Hobart, #4 Montclair State


Voting Breakdown
Cortland State (4,1,1,2,1,4,1,1,2,6,)
Delaware Valley (5,3,2,5,4,2,3,3,1,2,)
Rowan (1,4,4,3,2,1,4,2,8,NR,)
Alfred (6,2,5,1,8,3,6,6,5,1,)
Union (2,NR,NR,4,3,6,8,7,6,5,)
Ithaca (9,6,3,10,6,9,10,8,3,7,)
Wilkes (3,10,NR,6,5,8,9,9,9,4,)
RPI (7,5,9,8,NR,7,2,5,NR,10,)
St. John Fisher (10,8,8,9,9,10,7,4,4,8,)
Springfield (8,9,10,7,10,5,5,10,7,NR,)
Hobart (NR,7,7,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,10,9,)
Albright (NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,3,)
Montclair State (NR,NR,6,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,)
Widener (NR,NR,NR,NR,7,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,)



Key Regional Games This Week:

#1 Cortland State vs. #3 Rowan
#2 Delaware Valley vs. Wesley
#5 Union vs. Muhlenberg
#6 Ithaca vs. Widener

I'm shocked that Montclair even got (5) points after the way they played on Saturday.

That is the same crazy ass poll that I have been inquiring about.......AND has Wilkes unranked.

Ithaca #3...........Union: Unranked
Montclair #6.......Wilkes: Unranked

Hmmmmm......

....and you just got done posting in response to me that you have no problem with the majority of pollsters, yet you go right back at "the crazy ass poll"....which way you want it? 

As previously stated.....this is the ONLY poll I have a problem with.....Upstate explained his rationale and it made sense to me.

82, do you agree with this poll??

Absolutely, unqualified, 100% agreement.....EXCEPT, the Fisher ranking

did you mean the entire poll or just the IC-uNION ASPECT OF IT?

82,
Are pulling my chain?  Look at the previous posts in this thread.

[union89]

dlip is sorry here and it not being a homer but the Union IC question is getting ****ing stupid. The U returned a **** load of skill players on O, returned at least 8 on D, and was totally underated (understandably though if one is just looking at the past two seasons when judging) from the start of 09. In many cases if a non-ranked team upsets a ranked team the ranked team will still and should be ranked ahead of them, ex. two years ago WNEC beat ****ing Wick and Boltus and later that year Wick was in the top ten and if one even mentioned WNEC in that poll they would be laughed at. Yet here it is not the case. Will U run the table, maybe, maybe not, BUT if one were to look at their roster, player potential and performance they would see U have been underrated. Anyone who knows anything about U football new this one was going to be very very close. Not tooting horns here but U89 and myself picked U to win. We are not ****in idiots or total homers. When the two teams played did Union totally dominate? No, but U was definitly the better team. Hence they now deserve a higher ranking. dlip had U fifth or sixth this week with Ithaca coming in at like 9 or 10 (****ty memory now I am at work).

Not that people would know (or should for that matter), but Union lost 2 games last year due to brutal FG kicking....mostly extra points.   With even an average performance from the kicking game, Union would have been 7-2.  Now granted, a loss is a loss, but with the amount of experienced seniors on both lines and quality skill positions, Union is poised this year for a good season.

As I said on the LL board last week, Union NEEDS this to be a very strong year.  The Dutchmen lose a huge portion of their core to graduation in '10.

[labart96]

dlip is sorry here and it not being a homer but the Union IC question is getting ****ing stupid. The U returned a **** load of skill players on O, returned at least 8 on D, and was totally underated (understandably though if one is just looking at the past two seasons when judging) from the start of 09. In many cases if a non-ranked team upsets a ranked team the ranked team will still and should be ranked ahead of them, ex. two years ago WNEC beat ****ing Wick and Boltus and later that year Wick was in the top ten and if one even mentioned WNEC in that poll they would be laughed at. Yet here it is not the case. Will U run the table, maybe, maybe not, BUT if one were to look at their roster, player potential and performance they would see U have been underrated. Anyone who knows anything about U football new this one was going to be very very close. Not tooting horns here but U89 and myself picked U to win. We are not ****in idiots or total homers. When the two teams played did Union totally dominate? No, but U was definitly the better team. Hence they now deserve a higher ranking. dlip had U fifth or sixth this week with Ithaca coming in at like 9 or 10 (****ty memory now I am at work).

Not that people would know (or should for that matter), but Union lost 2 games last year due to brutal FG kicking....mostly extra points.   With even an average performance from the kicking game, Union would have been 7-2.  Now granted, a loss is a loss, but with the amount of experienced seniors on both lines and quality skill positions, Union is poised this year for a good season.

As I said on the LL board last week, Union NEEDS this to be a very strong year.  The Dutchmen lose a huge portion of their core to graduation in '10.

Not necessarily - actually if Hobart converted three of their FGs (Bart's kicker went 0 for 3) the Statesmen would have beaten Union last year.

[Knightstalker]

dlip is sorry here and it not being a homer but the Union IC question is getting ****ing stupid. The U returned a **** load of skill players on O, returned at least 8 on D, and was totally underated (understandably though if one is just looking at the past two seasons when judging) from the start of 09. In many cases if a non-ranked team upsets a ranked team the ranked team will still and should be ranked ahead of them, ex. two years ago WNEC beat ****ing Wick and Boltus and later that year Wick was in the top ten and if one even mentioned WNEC in that poll they would be laughed at. Yet here it is not the case. Will U run the table, maybe, maybe not, BUT if one were to look at their roster, player potential and performance they would see U have been underrated. Anyone who knows anything about U football new this one was going to be very very close. Not tooting horns here but U89 and myself picked U to win. We are not ****in idiots or total homers. When the two teams played did Union totally dominate? No, but U was definitly the better team. Hence they now deserve a higher ranking. dlip had U fifth or sixth this week with Ithaca coming in at like 9 or 10 (****ty memory now I am at work).

Not that people would know (or should for that matter), but Union lost 2 games last year due to brutal FG kicking....mostly extra points.   With even an average performance from the kicking game, Union would have been 7-2.  Now granted, a loss is a loss, but with the amount of experienced seniors on both lines and quality skill positions, Union is poised this year for a good season.

As I said on the LL board last week, Union NEEDS this to be a very strong year.  The Dutchmen lose a huge portion of their core to graduation in '10.

Not necessarily - actually if Hobart converted three of their FGs (Bart's kicker went 0 for 3) the Statesmen would have beaten Union last year.

And if your Aunt had balls she would be your Uncle.   

[union89]

dlip is sorry here and it not being a homer but the Union IC question is getting ****ing stupid. The U returned a **** load of skill players on O, returned at least 8 on D, and was totally underated (understandably though if one is just looking at the past two seasons when judging) from the start of 09. In many cases if a non-ranked team upsets a ranked team the ranked team will still and should be ranked ahead of them, ex. two years ago WNEC beat ****ing Wick and Boltus and later that year Wick was in the top ten and if one even mentioned WNEC in that poll they would be laughed at. Yet here it is not the case. Will U run the table, maybe, maybe not, BUT if one were to look at their roster, player potential and performance they would see U have been underrated. Anyone who knows anything about U football new this one was going to be very very close. Not tooting horns here but U89 and myself picked U to win. We are not ****in idiots or total homers. When the two teams played did Union totally dominate? No, but U was definitly the better team. Hence they now deserve a higher ranking. dlip had U fifth or sixth this week with Ithaca coming in at like 9 or 10 (****ty memory now I am at work).

Not that people would know (or should for that matter), but Union lost 2 games last year due to brutal FG kicking....mostly extra points.   With even an average performance from the kicking game, Union would have been 7-2.  Now granted, a loss is a loss, but with the amount of experienced seniors on both lines and quality skill positions, Union is poised this year for a good season.

As I said on the LL board last week, Union NEEDS this to be a very strong year.  The Dutchmen lose a huge portion of their core to graduation in '10.

Not necessarily - actually if Hobart converted three of their FGs (Bart's kicker went 0 for 3) the Statesmen would have beaten Union last year.

And if your Aunt had balls she would be your Uncle.   

Thought it was relevant to the conversation......maybe not.

[dlippiel]

dlip is sorry here and it not being a homer but the Union IC question is getting ****ing stupid. The U returned a **** load of skill players on O, returned at least 8 on D, and was totally underated (understandably though if one is just looking at the past two seasons when judging) from the start of 09. In many cases if a non-ranked team upsets a ranked team the ranked team will still and should be ranked ahead of them, ex. two years ago WNEC beat ****ing Wick and Boltus and later that year Wick was in the top ten and if one even mentioned WNEC in that poll they would be laughed at. Yet here it is not the case. Will U run the table, maybe, maybe not, BUT if one were to look at their roster, player potential and performance they would see U have been underrated. Anyone who knows anything about U football new this one was going to be very very close. Not tooting horns here but U89 and myself picked U to win. We are not ****in idiots or total homers. When the two teams played did Union totally dominate? No, but U was definitly the better team. Hence they now deserve a higher ranking. dlip had U fifth or sixth this week with Ithaca coming in at like 9 or 10 (****ty memory now I am at work).

Not that people would know (or should for that matter), but Union lost 2 games last year due to brutal FG kicking....mostly extra points.   With even an average performance from the kicking game, Union would have been 7-2.  Now granted, a loss is a loss, but with the amount of experienced seniors on both lines and quality skill positions, Union is poised this year for a good season.

As I said on the LL board last week, Union NEEDS this to be a very strong year.  The Dutchmen lose a huge portion of their core to graduation in '10.

Not necessarily - actually if Hobart converted three of their FGs (Bart's kicker went 0 for 3) the Statesmen would have beaten Union last year.

Yeah but TGP this was a ****ing pattern with the U special teams. They seriously hurt that team last year and it was every ****ing game. Many games one can make the point regarding, if this, if that, but with U special teams in 08 a ****in field goal was seriously hard to come by. Even games where the U wasn't a field goal or extra point away missing those extra points or field goals played huge in the momentum of games. Case n' point RPI last year. dlip recalls at least one ****in extra point miss, maybe two. On top of that Coney runs for a 60 yd TD to give U the lead and total momentum at 86' then of course RPI runs the ****in kickoff 90 some yds and all the momentum was gone, poof, like Caiser ****ing Soze!

[theoriginalupstate]

Are posts with the **** in them en vogue now on the LL board like talking in the third person?

If so Upstate is going to start ****ing doing it!

[redswarm81]

It should be clear to anyone that saw Union on Saturday, or knows the fact that they 4 very good returning skill guys (QB, RB, 2WRs, and some dlinemen) that the win of Ithaca was not an upset.  Union outplayed them the whole game and was the better team.

I would not be shocked if they played again and Ithaca beat them by 4 Td's, as I think Ithaca may have the potential to have an explosive offense this year if they mix it up, but the fact remains that Union had a much better running game, and better run defense, and better WRs than Ithacas defensive backs.

In my opinion, in d3, if you beat another team, you get ranked higher than the other team.

I can see USC being ranked higher than Stanford if they get upset, as you know USC is going to be better than Stanford, but Union and Ithaca, as well as 12-15 other d3 eastern d3 teams aren't that far apart.

A couple of solid points here.  First, in a Week 1 or Week 2 poll, when head-to-head results are the only available objectively verifiable data, there's really no justification for ranking the head-to-head  loser ahead of the winner.  That might not be the case later in the season--in fact, in situations such as last year's SJF-'Wick-IC threeway, it might not even be possible.

Second, I think the roster considerations are justifiably used in ranking teams in preseason and/or early season polls.  That said, I'm sure that the d3football.com poll voters and the Kickoff '09 editorial staff had that same roster information, yet in preseason and Week 1, Union got zero poll votes.  I find that odd.

[pg04]

I actually went the opposite way of the poster that went with Ithaca at 3 and MSU at 6.  I have Union at 2 and Wilkes at 3.  Rowan at 1.  I think these 3 teams have been the most impressive 2 weeks in...

[Jonny Utah]

It should be clear to anyone that saw Union on Saturday, or knows the fact that they 4 very good returning skill guys (QB, RB, 2WRs, and some dlinemen) that the win of Ithaca was not an upset.  Union outplayed them the whole game and was the better team.

I would not be shocked if they played again and Ithaca beat them by 4 Td's, as I think Ithaca may have the potential to have an explosive offense this year if they mix it up, but the fact remains that Union had a much better running game, and better run defense, and better WRs than Ithacas defensive backs.

In my opinion, in d3, if you beat another team, you get ranked higher than the other team.

I can see USC being ranked higher than Stanford if they get upset, as you know USC is going to be better than Stanford, but Union and Ithaca, as well as 12-15 other d3 eastern d3 teams aren't that far apart.

JU I disagree.  The poll has to be somewhat subjective, taking into account what hopefully are educated football people's (fellow east posters) opinions about the quality of the teams.  Otherwise, why bother voting.  Could not a computer simply figure out rankings based upon who beats who every week.  As you know, this theory doesnt work, because for example, SJF beats IC, IC beats Wick, and Wick beats SJF....happens every year.  How do you rank em now without using your subjective football mind?

You cant tell me that if UR knocks off SJF this week, that UR gets ranked ahead of them.  SJF beats them every year and clearly still has more talent based upon this year's results.

Like I said, it depends on if you are in the top 10-12 teams or not.  Union is in the top 10-12, UR is not.  So if UR beat SJF, it may be considered a fluke this early in the season, and SJF might be still deserving of a higher rank.  But Union was not really a fluke, and that should be based on the game itself, Unions returning players, Unions history, and Ithacas lost players from last year.

I agree with the Union-IC aspect perhaps.  You did state however, "12-15" teams and made the blanket statement that if you beat a team in d-3 you should be ranked higher. I didnt think you really meant that and your last post seems to clarify with what  I can agree with.  Top teams get the benefit of the doubt in a close loss to third tier teams. 

Yea you are right.  I guess I meant to say that in general, d3 teams will jump larger spaces in the national polls than d1 teams do.  Theres a reason Las Vegas does not have betting lines on division 3 football right?

[dlippiel]

That said, I'm sure that the d3football.com poll voters and the Kickoff '09 editorial staff had that same roster information, yet in preseason and Week 1, Union got zero poll votes.  I find that odd.

dlip looks at it like this. First off the d3 crew has well over 200 teams to look at. Of these over 200 teams you have personel developments, growth, and potential that, on the D3 level can be very difficult to find information on. Overall one would think you would realistically look at # of returning starters, recruits (preseason info on recruits is also not always easy to come by in D3), and recent team records going back 1 to 2 seasons. dlip has enough trouble getting all the info on just one team, even with some inside connections, let alone over 200. Hence the fact that dlip never gave the D3 crew **** for not recognizing U in the preseason and week #1. Looking at the U, coming off a 5-4 record, where special teams were very poor, with a D that gave up an avg of 25ppg, and a very young QB, dlip understood why U did not get the love they deserved. dlip thinks now, obviously, the crew sees that U has the potential to be for real, and either genuinely feels like they are deserving of a #22 ranking after Saturdays victory or maybe is making up for the possible (but understandable) oversight. To be honest dlip would like to see the U at maybe 27-28 in the national poll. He is hoping that U remembers the last two years, stays hungry, continues to push, and goes no where near the term, "complacent." If they do, with a tough schedule ahead of them, this W and ranking will be worthless in the grand scheme of the regional and especially nation picture. Yet all of those close to the U program saw the potential for 09 and are not surprised by Saturday's W. U is highly highly skilled on the O side of the ball. Deep as **** at wide out, Chris Coney nasty at RB, an O line with something to prove, and a pissed off D that needs to prove itself for an entire season before anyone buys them as being better than avg.

[redswarm81]

That said, I'm sure that the d3football.com poll voters and the Kickoff '09 editorial staff had that same roster information, yet in preseason and Week 1, Union got zero poll votes.  I find that odd.

dlip looks at it like this. . . . blah blah blah . . .  over 200 teams . . . blah blah blah . . .  personel developments, growth, and potential that, . . . blah blah blah . . .  you would realistically look at # of returning starters, recruits (preseason info on recruits is also not always easy to come by in D3), and recent team records going back 1 to 2 seasons. . . . blah blah blah . . .  U is highly highly skilled on the O side of the ball. Deep as **** at wide out, Chris Coney nasty at RB, an O line with something to prove, and a pissed off D that needs to prove itself for an entire season before anyone buys them as being better than avg.

I understand that's the way you would do it if you were a d3football.com poll voter or a Kickoff '09 editor.  I suppose I'd follow a similar strategy.  Have we heard from any d3football.com poll voters or Kickoff '09 editors on how they actually did it?

Is it possible that Ithaca got an early season high ranking (after a one-and-out post-season) based on reputation, and that goodwill was transferred to Union when Union knocked off Ithaca in U's 1st game?

Trying to think this through logically, using what little evidence was available to me, I thought Jimmy Olsen/dewcrew88 was right--jumping from zero points to top 25 was too much to expect.  He and I were both wrong.  Good for the LL, though--helps balance out the effect of Hobart's "recent unpleasantness."

[Jonny Utah]

I was just thinking though....what if Ithaca had won that game?  One play would have decided how many notches in the poll for both teams?

I dont know anything about m-burg, but I bet Union wins and then ends up going 8-2 or even 9-1.

[SJFF82]

East Region Fan Poll - Week 2 (9/12/09)

#	School (1st votes)	Record	Pts	Prev.	This Week
1	Cortland State( 5 )	1-0	87	3	vs. #3 Rowan
2	Delaware Valley( 1 )	2-0	80	6	vs. Wesley
3	Rowan( 2 )	1-0	70	7	at #1 Cortland State
4	Alfred( 2 )	2-0	67	5	vs. St. Lawrence
5	Union	1-0	47	NR	at Muhlenberg
6	Ithaca	1-1	39	1	vs. Widener
7	Wilkes	2-0	36	NR	Open Date
8	RPI	1-0	35	8	vs. Utica
9	St. John Fisher	1-1	33	9	vs. Rochester
10	Springfield	2-0	28	10	Open Date

Others Receiving votes:      
Hobart 11
Albright 8
Montclair State 5
Widener 4


Dropping out: #2 Hobart, #4 Montclair State


Voting Breakdown
Cortland State (4,1,1,2,1,4,1,1,2,6,)
Delaware Valley (5,3,2,5,4,2,3,3,1,2,)
Rowan (1,4,4,3,2,1,4,2,8,NR,)
Alfred (6,2,5,1,8,3,6,6,5,1,)
Union (2,NR,NR,4,3,6,8,7,6,5,)
Ithaca (9,6,3,10,6,9,10,8,3,7,)
Wilkes (3,10,NR,6,5,8,9,9,9,4,)
RPI (7,5,9,8,NR,7,2,5,NR,10,)
St. John Fisher (10,8,8,9,9,10,7,4,4,8,)
Springfield (8,9,10,7,10,5,5,10,7,NR,)
Hobart (NR,7,7,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,10,9,)
Albright (NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,3,)
Montclair State (NR,NR,6,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,)
Widener (NR,NR,NR,NR,7,NR,NR,NR,NR,NR,)



Key Regional Games This Week:

#1 Cortland State vs. #3 Rowan
#2 Delaware Valley vs. Wesley
#5 Union vs. Muhlenberg
#6 Ithaca vs. Widener

I'm shocked that Montclair even got (5) points after the way they played on Saturday.

That is the same crazy ass poll that I have been inquiring about.......AND has Wilkes unranked.

Ithaca #3...........Union: Unranked
Montclair #6.......Wilkes: Unranked

Hmmmmm......

....and you just got done posting in response to me that you have no problem with the majority of pollsters, yet you go right back at "the crazy ass poll"....which way you want it? 

As previously stated.....this is the ONLY poll I have a problem with.....Upstate explained his rationale and it made sense to me.

82, do you agree with this poll??

Absolutely, unqualified, 100% agreement.....EXCEPT, the Fisher ranking

did you mean the entire poll or just the IC-uNION ASPECT OF IT?

82,
Are pulling my chain?  Look at the previous posts in this thread.

my bad...when you said "crazy ass poll" i thought you were referring to the ERFP...now i got ya....no i dont agree with that particular crazy ass poll either....although i stiill could justify ic being ahead of union

[union89]

I was just thinking though....what if Ithaca had won that game?  One play would have decided how many notches in the poll for both teams?

I dont know anything about m-burg, but I bet Union wins and then ends up going 8-2 or even 9-1.

I hope you are right......I'm very nervous about this 1.