East Region Fan Poll

[dlippiel]

*"There is D3...and DNESCAC...  The poll is for D3."
   So DNESCAC is not in the D3?

For all rules, regulations, and requirements, yes, the NESCAC is D3.  But they are an isolated conference in football and all we would be doing is placing some team from that conference into a ranking system solely based on record or what we have heard, or for the 14 people who watch NESCAC games, on how you think they look or could match up. 

Hell, for all we know, the NESCAC might be leaps and bounds above the top teams of the East.  For all we know, they would get smacked down by the ECFC.  We have nothing to judge it on, we probably never will, so it is not worth a spot on this poll as far as i'm concerned.

I just checked all the NESCAC teams schedules. I have never seen a conference only play within their own conference before?
I'm not sure if I would exclude them or not? Doesn't the comment, "They haven't played any real teams yet", come up quite often through out the entire D3 league?

Yes AZ and this is a topic that has been debated many times over (not saying we shouldn't talk about it, dlip is only pointing this out as to prove the topic's validity). The NESCAC is one and alone in regards to it's football scheduling and league format at the D3 level. It used to annoy dlip quite a bit, but over time he just has accepted it (but will still take shots at those tea drinking ****ers for the fun of it). The schools within the NESCAC are very presitgious academic institutions yet, in dlip's opinion, no more prestgious than a Union, RPI, Hobart, etc. It just seems to dlip that their primary focus is academics above all else. Then of course he wonders why they particpate in the NCAA's in all other sports? In many sports they are very competetive and even dominent at times (ex. Middlebury ice hockey). Bottom line dlip repects their position as long as they keep their mouths shut about national polls and comparisons to other D3 teams. Honestly, for the most part, dlip has yet to meet a NESCAC fan or parent who doesn't so he is fine with it. To restate dlip's opinion; to even be considered for a poll one must play OOC games and/or participate in the NCAA tourney. If not, ****'um.

[AZDutchman]

*"There is D3...and DNESCAC...  The poll is for D3."
   So DNESCAC is not in the D3?

For all rules, regulations, and requirements, yes, the NESCAC is D3.  But they are an isolated conference in football and all we would be doing is placing some team from that conference into a ranking system solely based on record or what we have heard, or for the 14 people who watch NESCAC games, on how you think they look or could match up. 

Hell, for all we know, the NESCAC might be leaps and bounds above the top teams of the East.  For all we know, they would get smacked down by the ECFC.  We have nothing to judge it on, we probably never will, so it is not worth a spot on this poll as far as i'm concerned.

I just checked all the NESCAC teams schedules. I have never seen a conference only play within their own conference before?
I'm not sure if I would exclude them or not? Doesn't the comment, "They haven't played any real teams yet", come up quite often through out the entire D3 league?

Every other conference in the East sends a representative(or atleast intends to send one) to the playoffs where they can branch out of their incest-fest conference play and you can have an idea where they match up overall.  NESCAC does not.  Why am I defending this?  I'm pretty sure my logic makes sense to everyone else here.  You don't have to agree, but you should be able to understand my logic.

Another thing that I wasn't aware of. That's one of the reasons I wanted to review last years play off schedule.
I would like to present my Top 10 with some intelligence and logic.

[AZDutchman]

*"There is D3...and DNESCAC...  The poll is for D3."
   So DNESCAC is not in the D3?

For all rules, regulations, and requirements, yes, the NESCAC is D3.  But they are an isolated conference in football and all we would be doing is placing some team from that conference into a ranking system solely based on record or what we have heard, or for the 14 people who watch NESCAC games, on how you think they look or could match up. 

Hell, for all we know, the NESCAC might be leaps and bounds above the top teams of the East.  For all we know, they would get smacked down by the ECFC.  We have nothing to judge it on, we probably never will, so it is not worth a spot on this poll as far as i'm concerned.

I just checked all the NESCAC teams schedules. I have never seen a conference only play within their own conference before?
I'm not sure if I would exclude them or not? Doesn't the comment, "They haven't played any real teams yet", come up quite often through out the entire D3 league?

Yes AZ and this is a topic that has been debated many times over (not saying we shouldn't talk about it, dlip is only pointing this out as to prove the topic's validity). The NESCAC is one and alone in regards to it's football scheduling and league format at the D3 level. It used to annoy dlip quite a bit, but over time he just has accepted it (but will still take shots at those tea drinking ****ers for the fun of it). The schools within the NESCAC are very presitgious academic institutions yet, in dlip's opinion, no more prestgious than a Union, RPI, Hobart, etc. It just seems to dlip that their primary focus is academics above all else. Then of course he wonders why they particpate in the NCAA's in all other sports? In many sports they are very competetive and even dominent at times (ex. Middlebury ice hockey). Bottom line dlip repects their position as long as they keep their mouths shut about national polls and comparisons to other D3 teams. Honestly, for the most part, dlip has yet to meet a NESCAC fan or parent who doesn't so he is fine with it. To restate dlip's opinion; to even be considered for a poll one must play OOC games and/or participate in the NCAA tourney. If not, ****'um.

Fully understand. Sounds like a league inside a league to me. 

[lewdogg11]

*"There is D3...and DNESCAC...  The poll is for D3."
   So DNESCAC is not in the D3?

For all rules, regulations, and requirements, yes, the NESCAC is D3.  But they are an isolated conference in football and all we would be doing is placing some team from that conference into a ranking system solely based on record or what we have heard, or for the 14 people who watch NESCAC games, on how you think they look or could match up. 

Hell, for all we know, the NESCAC might be leaps and bounds above the top teams of the East.  For all we know, they would get smacked down by the ECFC.  We have nothing to judge it on, we probably never will, so it is not worth a spot on this poll as far as i'm concerned.

I just checked all the NESCAC teams schedules. I have never seen a conference only play within their own conference before?
I'm not sure if I would exclude them or not? Doesn't the comment, "They haven't played any real teams yet", come up quite often through out the entire D3 league?

Every other conference in the East sends a representative(or atleast intends to send one) to the playoffs where they can branch out of their incest-fest conference play and you can have an idea where they match up overall.  NESCAC does not.  Why am I defending this?  I'm pretty sure my logic makes sense to everyone else here.  You don't have to agree, but you should be able to understand my logic.

Another thing that I wasn't aware of. That's one of the reasons I wanted to review last years play off schedule.
I would like to present my Top 10 with some intelligence and logic.

I was reading your posts/questions as a means to cause argument.  My apologies if I misread them and they were just honest questions.

[Bombers798891]

Hey, if you watch enough D-III football that you feel comfortable assessing how a NESCAC's team matches up talent-wise to an ECFC/LL/E8 team, I say go ahead. I think that it's just incredibly difficult for most people to do that. It's hard enough in D-III to make comparisons between teams that do play OOC games because of the highly regional nature of the regular season and the fact that, since this is D-III, there's not exactly an easy way to follow many of these teams. For many people, I suspect even attempting to rank at NESCAC team would be a shot in the dark.

[AZDutchman]

I was reading your posts/questions as a means to cause argument.  My apologies if I misread them and they were just honest questions.

Not a problem. I'm just trying to get all the facts, past/present polls and conferences in order to put out the best non bias decisions.

I'm one to allow a team a position in the Top Poll with out having to prove themselves in the first week (only). After that they're going to have to prove themselves.

[AZDutchman]

Hey, if you watch enough D-III football that you feel comfortable assessing how a NESCAC's team matches up talent-wise to an ECFC/LL/E8 team, I say go ahead. I think that it's just incredibly difficult for most people to do that. It's hard enough in D-III to make comparisons between teams that do play OOC games because of the highly regional nature of the regular season and the fact that, since this is D-III, there's not exactly an easy way to follow many of these teams. For many people, I suspect even attempting to rank at NESCAC team would be a shot in the dark.

They have OOC games in their other sports, but not football?? I'm not even going to attempt to try figure that one out?
I'm not one to take a shot in the dark. I'll give them the proper attention that I think they deserve.
There won't be any letters in that equation, just simple math. 

[rams1102]

I think dlip and AZ have said it. Williams does not participate in the D3 Football Post Season but participates the D3 Basketball Post Season. Does anyone have the answer? It appears to be a bit elitest to me.

Also why the lack of respect for Ithaca in the Top 10 Pre-Season? I'm no lover of Ithaca, but felt they S/B in the Top 10.

[Bombers798891]

I think dlip and AZ have said it. Williams does not participate in the D3 Football Post Season but participates the D3 Basketball Post Season. Does anyone have the answer? It appears to be a bit elitest to me.

Also why the lack of respect for Ithaca in the Top 10 Pre-Season? I'm no lover of Ithaca, but felt they S/B in the Top 10.

I've got to agree here, and I'm absolutely no lover of Ithaca. 

Hobart did not beat a single team with a winning record last season, and Ithaca beat Springfield. The Bombers also beat St. Lawrence by 27 points despite missing something like half a dozen starters, whereas Hobart lost to them. Ithaca's got some question marks, and Hobart returns some talent, but until the games get played, I think Ithaca's above them. Frankly, I think any one of the top 5 teams in the E8 would win the LL. This might very well change in the course of the season, and if it does, I'll eat crow. But given what we saw last year, I'll take a middle-of-the-pack E8 team over a middle of the pack LL team.

Course, at the end of the day, we're talking eight points vs. four, but hey, I have to support my team at least a little

[AZDutchman]

I think dlip and AZ have said it. Williams does not participate in the D3 Football Post Season but participates the D3 Basketball Post Season. Does anyone have the answer? It appears to be a bit elitest to me.

Also why the lack of respect for Ithaca in the Top 10 Pre-Season? I'm no lover of Ithaca, but felt they S/B in the Top 10.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the preseason poll.
A lot of upsets happen in the beginning of the year. Why?, because they're not really upsets.
For some very odd reason people think that the same exact team that played last year step out onto the field this year. This is a whole new season, with a whole new team.
Yes, there are teams that consistently put out great teams, but a very small percentage.
I would let the first two weeks play out and then ask the whats and the whys?
Just my opinion.....

[Bombers798891]

I think dlip and AZ have said it. Williams does not participate in the D3 Football Post Season but participates the D3 Basketball Post Season. Does anyone have the answer? It appears to be a bit elitest to me.

Also why the lack of respect for Ithaca in the Top 10 Pre-Season? I'm no lover of Ithaca, but felt they S/B in the Top 10.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the preseason poll.
A lot of upsets happen in the beginning of the year. Why?, because they're not really upsets.
For some very odd reason people think that the same exact team that played last year step out onto the field this year. This is a whole new season, with a whole new team.
Yes, there are teams that consistently put out great teams, but a very small percentage.
I would let the first two weeks play out and then ask the whats and the whys?
Just my opinion.....

I think there's a lot of truth in what you say. However, if we're going to have a preseason poll, don't we have to base it on last season to a large extent? Again, I think it's a question of the realities of D-III. How much can we know about incoming players or backups? How much can we know about how quickly Union will turn into "Team Connolly?" Even with the great job Pat and the guys do on Kickoff, there's just not as much knowledge floating around about these teams for us to go off of.



I've always believed polls should wait until Week 2/3 to be released

[Jonny Utah]

RE the Nescac.

I'll include the Nescac teams in the poll because I usually catch 1-2 nescac games a year and 1-2 NEFC/ECFC games a year.  The Nescac top three teams would be 6-4 or 7-3 in the E8 or LL, while the bottom 5 teams would go 2-8 in those leagues (if they went in alone)

[Yanks 99]

RE the Nescac.

I'll include the Nescac teams in the poll because I usually catch 1-2 nescac games a year and 1-2 NEFC/ECFC games a year.  The Nescac top three teams would be 6-4 or 7-3 in the E8 or LL, while the bottom 5 teams would go 2-8 in those leagues (if they went in alone)

I will have to take your word for it JU...7-3 seems high....and again, it is tough to judge. 

As an example, based on watching Utica play IC and SJF the past two years, a lot of people argued that they would kill Hartwick (using Wick because it is easier for me to compare).  It probably made sense if you had to judge how Wick played against IC and SJF leading up to the Utica game, especially because UC played IC and SJF "tough".  Yet Wick won both. 

Now we are supposed to compare a team (from the NESCAC) that doesn't even play against any commom opponents, or against anyone outside of their league?  To me...and me only...that makes it too tough to judge.  As far as I am concerned, they (the NESCAC football teams) are a club sport...nothing more.  And because of this, I will never cast a vote for them in my ERFP.

[Jonny Utah]

RE the Nescac.

I'll include the Nescac teams in the poll because I usually catch 1-2 nescac games a year and 1-2 NEFC/ECFC games a year.  The Nescac top three teams would be 6-4 or 7-3 in the E8 or LL, while the bottom 5 teams would go 2-8 in those leagues (if they went in alone)

I will have to take your word for it JU...7-3 seems high....and again, it is tough to judge. 

As an example, based on watching Utica play IC and SJF the past two years, a lot of people argued that they would kill Hartwick (using Wick because it is easier for me to compare).  It probably made sense if you had to judge how Wick played against IC and SJF leading up to the Utica game.  Yet Wick won both. 

Now we are supposed to compare a team (from the NESCAC) that doesn't even play against any commom opponents?  To me...and me only...that makes it too tough to judge.  As far as I am concerned, they (the NESCAC football teams) are a club sport...nothing more.  And because of this, I will never cast a vote for them in my ERFP.

Ok, I think we can all agree that the E8 has been a bigger, more physical conference than the LL has been over the last two years.  If St. Lawrence can win the LL, then Trinity, Williams and Amherst would be able to win it as well.

Some of my opinion is also based on the fact that I coach high school football in MA and I see a lot the league all stars and all-state players going to Nescac schools.  Some of these players will even choose Williams over Harvard or Yale for football.

[Yanks 99]

RE the Nescac.

I'll include the Nescac teams in the poll because I usually catch 1-2 nescac games a year and 1-2 NEFC/ECFC games a year.  The Nescac top three teams would be 6-4 or 7-3 in the E8 or LL, while the bottom 5 teams would go 2-8 in those leagues (if they went in alone)

I will have to take your word for it JU...7-3 seems high....and again, it is tough to judge. 

As an example, based on watching Utica play IC and SJF the past two years, a lot of people argued that they would kill Hartwick (using Wick because it is easier for me to compare).  It probably made sense if you had to judge how Wick played against IC and SJF leading up to the Utica game.  Yet Wick won both. 

Now we are supposed to compare a team (from the NESCAC) that doesn't even play against any commom opponents?  To me...and me only...that makes it too tough to judge.  As far as I am concerned, they (the NESCAC football teams) are a club sport...nothing more.  And because of this, I will never cast a vote for them in my ERFP.

Ok, I think we can all agree that the E8 has been a bigger, more physical conference than the LL has been over the last two years.  If St. Lawrence can win the LL, then Trinity, Williams and Amherst would be able to win it as well.

Some of my opinion is also based on the fact that I coach high school football in MA and I see a lot the league all stars and all-state players going to Nescac schools.  Some of these players will even choose Williams over Harvard or Yale for football.

You aren't wrong in your assessment...and being in the position you are in, you will certainly have more insight on the type of players that go to the NESCAC.

I still won't vote for them...ever...but that doesn't mean you are wrong in your assessment.