East Region Fan Poll

[SJFF82]

special thanks to the E8 in that desperation move to ensure an auto-bid for creating this conundrum for the rest of the East Region.  We're all paying the price unless someone steps up and beats Salisbury.

Really it's the northern members of the E8 that suffer from Salisbury running the table unless the insinuation is that the remaining East teams will now get worse seedings.  But Salisbury would be just as good whether they were playing in the E8 or not.  And what was the E8 supposed to do?  Not fill out their conference and play for the shrinking Pool B bid(s)?  Fisher would be the only team left in contention for that and another loss would leave us right where we would be with Salisbury winning the AQ.

Pool B would re-enlarge with six E8 teams to an additional bid.  Kaz, do the math.  There are six autobid conferences in the East Region.  If the entire Region could account for just one or two Pool C bids, then there wouldn't be a need for a double-shift.  Now, with Salisbury dominating, it's as if the East only has five Pool A bids -- plus Salisbury.  The inclusion of Salisbury has rocked the entire bracketology of the East in a way that gives the East one less team, most likely, in the mix.  As Coach Greene said on ITH a few weeks back, watch what you wish for sometimes.  Yes, you have an autobid -- at what price?

Does it really matter all that much?  Salisbury is a part of the E8.  What is the big deal if they win the E8 and are in the South Region?  Montclair made the playoffs last year and was put in the South.  If Cortland wins the NJAC, it takes 1 NJ team out of contention.  Same thing really.  If you don't deserve to be in the playoffs, then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs.  Case closed.

...well yeah, that is kinda the point.  I started with the idea that because the E8 took on a South import, and now that South import stands to win the e8, then effectively, the East has one less team going to the dance   ie: SC, SJF...etc.

and its not as easy as "if you dont deserve it then you dont go"  last check the NEFC and ECFC are getting auto-bids in.

[lewdogg11]

special thanks to the E8 in that desperation move to ensure an auto-bid for creating this conundrum for the rest of the East Region.  We're all paying the price unless someone steps up and beats Salisbury.

Really it's the northern members of the E8 that suffer from Salisbury running the table unless the insinuation is that the remaining East teams will now get worse seedings.  But Salisbury would be just as good whether they were playing in the E8 or not.  And what was the E8 supposed to do?  Not fill out their conference and play for the shrinking Pool B bid(s)?  Fisher would be the only team left in contention for that and another loss would leave us right where we would be with Salisbury winning the AQ.

Pool B would re-enlarge with six E8 teams to an additional bid.  Kaz, do the math.  There are six autobid conferences in the East Region.  If the entire Region could account for just one or two Pool C bids, then there wouldn't be a need for a double-shift.  Now, with Salisbury dominating, it's as if the East only has five Pool A bids -- plus Salisbury.  The inclusion of Salisbury has rocked the entire bracketology of the East in a way that gives the East one less team, most likely, in the mix.  As Coach Greene said on ITH a few weeks back, watch what you wish for sometimes.  Yes, you have an autobid -- at what price?

Does it really matter all that much?  Salisbury is a part of the E8.  What is the big deal if they win the E8 and are in the South Region?  Montclair made the playoffs last year and was put in the South.  If Cortland wins the NJAC, it takes 1 NJ team out of contention.  Same thing really.  If you don't deserve to be in the playoffs, then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs.  Case closed.

...well yeah, that is kinda the point.  I started with the idea that because the E8 took on a South import, and now that South import stands to win the e8, then effectively, the East has one less team going to the dance   ie: SC, SJF...etc.

and its not as easy as "if you dont deserve it then you dont go"  last check the NEFC and ECFC are getting auto-bids in.

Right, but you don't see many 2nd and 3rd place NEFC teams complaining if they don't get in.  Same with the LL at this point.  Salisbury is part of the E8 and should be embraced by the E8 regardless of geography because their success makes the league stronger. 

If they win the league and jet next year ala Susquehanna in the LL a few years ago, then being upset is understandable.

[Yanks 99]

special thanks to the E8 in that desperation move to ensure an auto-bid for creating this conundrum for the rest of the East Region.  We're all paying the price unless someone steps up and beats Salisbury.

Really it's the northern members of the E8 that suffer from Salisbury running the table unless the insinuation is that the remaining East teams will now get worse seedings.  But Salisbury would be just as good whether they were playing in the E8 or not.  And what was the E8 supposed to do?  Not fill out their conference and play for the shrinking Pool B bid(s)?  Fisher would be the only team left in contention for that and another loss would leave us right where we would be with Salisbury winning the AQ.

Pool B would re-enlarge with six E8 teams to an additional bid.  Kaz, do the math.  There are six autobid conferences in the East Region.  If the entire Region could account for just one or two Pool C bids, then there wouldn't be a need for a double-shift.  Now, with Salisbury dominating, it's as if the East only has five Pool A bids -- plus Salisbury.  The inclusion of Salisbury has rocked the entire bracketology of the East in a way that gives the East one less team, most likely, in the mix.  As Coach Greene said on ITH a few weeks back, watch what you wish for sometimes.  Yes, you have an autobid -- at what price?

Does it really matter all that much?  Salisbury is a part of the E8.  What is the big deal if they win the E8 and are in the South Region?  Montclair made the playoffs last year and was put in the South.  If Cortland wins the NJAC, it takes 1 NJ team out of contention.  Same thing really.  If you don't deserve to be in the playoffs, then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs.  Case closed.

...well yeah, that is kinda the point.  I started with the idea that because the E8 took on a South import, and now that South import stands to win the e8, then effectively, the East has one less team going to the dance   ie: SC, SJF...etc.

and its not as easy as "if you dont deserve it then you dont go"  last check the NEFC and ECFC are getting auto-bids in.

Right, but you don't see many 2nd and 3rd place NEFC teams complaining if they don't get in.  Same with the LL at this point.  Salisbury is part of the E8 and should be embraced by the E8 regardless of geography because their success makes the league stronger. 

If they win the league and jet next year ala Susquehanna in the LL a few years ago, then being upset is understandable.

I kind of agree with LD on this one.  I have absolutely no problem with Salisbury in the E8.  I think it makes the league much stronger then it was before, and I think that is saying a lot.  Even Frostburg, who now has wins over Alfred and Utica, is a huge improvement from say Norwich a few years ago.  What would you have the E8 do?  Implode like the LL, or get that much stronger like they have?

And let's face it...Salisbury seems to be on one of those special runs, with a special group.  They are playing at a level that I haven't seen out of the NYS teams since Fisher in 06.

[Frank Rossi]

Guys, Salisbury and Frostburg are a two-year deal.  This is a temporary fix.

[SJFF82]

special thanks to the E8 in that desperation move to ensure an auto-bid for creating this conundrum for the rest of the East Region.  We're all paying the price unless someone steps up and beats Salisbury.

Really it's the northern members of the E8 that suffer from Salisbury running the table unless the insinuation is that the remaining East teams will now get worse seedings.  But Salisbury would be just as good whether they were playing in the E8 or not.  And what was the E8 supposed to do?  Not fill out their conference and play for the shrinking Pool B bid(s)?  Fisher would be the only team left in contention for that and another loss would leave us right where we would be with Salisbury winning the AQ.

Pool B would re-enlarge with six E8 teams to an additional bid.  Kaz, do the math.  There are six autobid conferences in the East Region.  If the entire Region could account for just one or two Pool C bids, then there wouldn't be a need for a double-shift.  Now, with Salisbury dominating, it's as if the East only has five Pool A bids -- plus Salisbury.  The inclusion of Salisbury has rocked the entire bracketology of the East in a way that gives the East one less team, most likely, in the mix.  As Coach Greene said on ITH a few weeks back, watch what you wish for sometimes.  Yes, you have an autobid -- at what price?

Does it really matter all that much?  Salisbury is a part of the E8.  What is the big deal if they win the E8 and are in the South Region?  Montclair made the playoffs last year and was put in the South.  If Cortland wins the NJAC, it takes 1 NJ team out of contention.  Same thing really.  If you don't deserve to be in the playoffs, then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs.  Case closed.

...well yeah, that is kinda the point.  I started with the idea that because the E8 took on a South import, and now that South import stands to win the e8, then effectively, the East has one less team going to the dance   ie: SC, SJF...etc.

and its not as easy as "if you dont deserve it then you dont go"  last check the NEFC and ECFC are getting auto-bids in.

Right, but you don't see many 2nd and 3rd place NEFC teams complaining if they don't get in.  Same with the LL at this point.  Salisbury is part of the E8 and should be embraced by the E8 regardless of geography because their success makes the league stronger. 

If they win the league and jet next year ala Susquehanna in the LL a few years ago, then being upset is understandable.

I kind of agree with LD on this one.  I have absolutely no problem with Salisbury in the E8.  I think it makes the league much stronger then it was before, and I think that is saying a lot.  Even Frostburg, who now has wins over Alfred and Utica, is a huge improvement from say Norwich a few years ago.  What would you have the E8 do?  Implode like the LL, or get that much stronger like they have?

And let's face it...Salisbury seems to be on one of those special runs, with a special group.  They are playing at a level that I haven't seen out of the NYS teams since Fisher in 06.

yea, I suppose I agree with LD also.....my original comment was simply that the fact that Salisbury is in the E8 and likely winning the thing will indeed remove a traditional East team from the field.  Fact:  Neither AU, SJF, IC nor SC is going to the dance, if Fisher loses again. 

That does not mean I have a problem with Salisbury being in the E8.  I like it that they are there also.  I would rather know though that they wont be shipped South in the play-offs, because then it is like them taking their ball and going home. 

[gordonmann]

Does it really matter all that much?  Salisbury is a part of the E8.  What is the big deal if they win the E8 and are in the South Region?  Montclair made the playoffs last year and was put in the South.  If Cortland wins the NJAC, it takes 1 NJ team out of contention.  Same thing really.  If you don't deserve to be in the playoffs, then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs.  Case closed.

I'm with LD.  As he points out, teams can and will be moved around across geographic regions.

To throw an even bigger damper on the conversation, I don't understand the preoccupation with whether Mount Union is in the "East" bracket . And we, at D3football.com, have the same preoccupation with bracketing so I'm not exempting us.

The geographic lables are just short hand. The committee could decide that Mount Union, UW-Whitewater and two non-East teams are the best four teams and build brackets around them.  It's hard for me to argue with that approach.  Or they could ignore the regional labels and throw Salisbury (or Johns Hopkins, Thomas More or Mount Union) in the "East" bracket because that's what makes sense based on the eventual participants and their geographic proximity. Irrespective of regional lables, geography will always impact the brackets.

Whether you play Mount Union in the national quarterfinals or the national semifinals, it's a difference of one week. Whenever I ask coaches or players about this issue, that's basically their response. The proverbial shrug. To win the title, you still likely have to beat Mount Union and UW-Whitewater (or a surprise team that proves to be their equal). 

Maybe there's some recruiting advantage to saying, "We were one of the last four teams in the country" and there's an extra week of practice on the line. But I don't think those benefits are a big deal.  Especially when you can still say, "We were the last team standing in this section of the country."  That's what Alfred can say, regardless of when they played Mount Union.

In my view, it's better to enjoy the weeks and games as they come and don't worry about when you're going to play Mount Union or UW-Whitewater, especially not when there's this much uncertainty.  As Keith has written in ATN, the journey is more important than the highly predictable destination of another Mount-Whitewater title game.

Oh, and get off my lawn.

[Frank Rossi]

Because it's a regional system for the first 11 weeks of the season.  There's virtually no crossover in the first place.  The regions are balanced in terms of numbers of teams.  What suddenly necessitates the breakdown of that regional nature if we don't have crossover in the first place?  In the 80s and 90s, when there were even less teams in the mix, the regions stayed intact until the Semifinals.  Either this regional fiction needs to disappear in the first 11 weeks, or it needs to be adhered to as much as possible through the Semifinals.

Gordon, we've been spoiled in that we can automatically name two of the top four teams without fail of late.  Granted, the Committee got caught in a conundrum last year with the seeding of UWW -- and the NCAA allowed them to change the rules a bit to avoid that problem again.  Assume for a minute that UWW and UMU began to fade somewhat.  How do you name "the top four teams in the nation" and build brackets around them when there's no crossover and SoS numbers are a complete joke?  Isn't the fairest way to determine the top team in each region if this regional fiction is going to continue to be prevalent in the first 11 weeks?  I keep saying it -- there is enough money in the pot from Div. I sports to filter down into a fund that assists teams in travelling to "out-of-region" opponents so that maybe we could balance who is the best in the Division.  Until that happens, it's tough enough to balance who is tops in a region, let alone the division.  We've become myopic because of UWW and UMU... but guess what?  Someday, this won't exist -- and justifying this type of bracket building will be a fool's game in the longrun.

Long story short, the inconsistent treatment of D3 football's "regions" needs to go away.  It's just like officiating -- as long as an official is consistent in the way he calls a game, I can't fault him for calling it tight or loose.  It's inconsistent officials that lead to problems.

[pumkinattack]

I agree with Frank here.  How do you determine if one 10-0 or 9-0 team is better than another if they don't really play across regions?  It could mean the difference between a home and away game.  That hasn't mattered much for eastern teams the last few years due to the lack of a credible representative, but in a close game, that home field can be a major advantage.  Even if you're just talking about the top 4 teams, how do we know that an undefeated DelVal isn't as good as St Thomas, Linfield, MTU, UWW this season? 

At the end of the day, let's wait and see an eastern team go 9-0 or 10-0 with regionally ranked wins of significance and see if someone gets shipped to this region of the country.  That'll be a fairly apparent way of the committtee saying that eastern teams at 9-0 or 10-0 aren't good enough until they go on the road and beat somebody from outside the region.   

[dlippiel]

Dlip loves the addition of Salisbury to the E8! ****, it makes the conference, and the region better for that matter. Regardless if they are still considered a "south" region team, their membership in the E8 makes them part of the region to dlip and as lew said makes the conference stronger. ****, please come to the LL in two years...

[lewdogg11]

I agree with Frank here.  How do you determine if one 10-0 or 9-0 team is better than another if they don't really play across regions?  It could mean the difference between a home and away game.  That hasn't mattered much for eastern teams the last few years due to the lack of a credible representative, but in a close game, that home field can be a major advantage.  Even if you're just talking about the top 4 teams, how do we know that an undefeated DelVal isn't as good as St Thomas, Linfield, MTU, UWW this season? 

At the end of the day, let's wait and see an eastern team go 9-0 or 10-0 with regionally ranked wins of significance and see if someone gets shipped to this region of the country.  That'll be a fairly apparent way of the committtee saying that eastern teams at 9-0 or 10-0 aren't good enough until they go on the road and beat somebody from outside the region.   

Let's face it, just about every system will allow you to throw stones at some point.  The Seattle Seahawks were 7-9 last year, and not only made the playoffs, but they HOSTED the 11-5 Saints.  There's always going to be a better team that has to travel and loses because of it. 

So far, the East Region has had no reason to b!tch about Mount Union coming East in the playoffs.  It makes sense geographically, and the East Region hasn't produced a dominant 1 seed in some time.  Until that happens, I think the playoff teams/seeds/brackets are fine.  We need a few RPI/SJF type runs in 3-4 consecutive years to get a little National attention for the Top 5 or so.  The East is pretty strong in the 10-20 area I think. 

[Frank Rossi]

So what should happen, LD, if DelVal, Hobart and Endicott run the table, LD?

[gordonmann]

Frank and Pumpkinattack:

I know you've thought a lot about this matter.  A lot more than I have, to be honest.   In retrospect, there's not much value in me weighing in to say, "I don't care that much." I should've just kept that to myself and not diverted the conversation.

But, for some reason, it just doesn't matter that much to me whether an East region team gets to be the top seed in one of the brackets.  Maybe there have been years where an East team was tops in its bracket and it wasn't one of the best four teams in the country.  That's frequently the argument at basketball time when an East/Mid-Atlantic/Northeast team gets to host throughout a bracket.  And I don't care that much when fans of Central, Midwest or Great Lakes teams raise the same complaint.   Maybe it's some kind of inherent fairness fault in me. 

Eventually you have to beat really good teams at some place other than your own stadium to win a championship (unless we're talking women's hoops where Final Four level teams can host).  The teams that have easier roads to the national semifinals almost always get squashed once they get that far.  I can't think of an undeserving Division III football champion who only won a national championshiop because they got the perfect seeding. 

I guess my indifference comes down to two things:

* Mount Union and UW-Whitewater squash teams no matter where they play them, home or away.  I know it bothered the UWW fans when they had to play NCC or Wesley on the road.  I didn't think it would prevent UWW from winning those two games.  Wesley wasn't competitive against UWW on the road and it wasn't much better hosting UWW.  If the game was played at a neutral site, I'd expect the same result.  Mount and UW-Whitewater are currently that much better than everyone else.  Some day that won't be the case and maybe I'll care more then. 

* The playoff is designed to determine who is the best team in the country, not who are the best four teams in the country.  As long as there's a championship game on a neutral field and teams don't have an obviously non-representative path to the title game (like playing the champions of the NEFC, EFC, NATHC and UMAC in successive rounds), I'm not that worried about who gets a harder road to the national championship based on subjective criteria.

If Del Val runs the table and ends up playing Mount Union in the national quarterfinals, I won't worry that much about it.  Because they'd probably end up playing them the next week any way.  And the tournament is about figuring out who the best team is.  If Del Val can't beat them, they aren't the best team.

I will now get out of the way and let those who do care discuss the subject at hand.

[Frank Rossi]

By the way, to those folks like dlip who think Salisbury has helped improve the E8, I have some news for you since this is a two-year deal.  There are four OOC games left for the E8 this season.  Assuming the E8 goes 3-1 in those games, here is the conference-wide winning percentage over the last three years for regular season games, including conference games yet to be played:

2009: 0.661
2010: 0.666
2011: 0.588 (projected)

While this may not be a surprise due to the additional conference games involved, factoring out Salisbury and Frostburg leads to an estimated win percentage this year of about 0.630 -- so, it is not just an aesthetics drop off we're seeing.  There is some reality in the E8 weakening a slight bit this season.

Salisbury is a South Region team once the season ends, based on the NCAA's treatment of the brackets now.  We can try to lay some sort of claim to these things as much as possible, but geography will dictate.  Susquehanna was closer in proximity to the bracketed teams two years ago, making Susquehanna a fit for the East bracket, lessening the effect.  Salisbury isn't the greatest geographic fit and could stay in the South.  In the meantime, the East would get its worst representation in the playoffs in recent memory simply because the teams beat each other up inside the Region and because one team in particular outside of the region romped the entire E8 unless Fisher can turn the tide.

[Frank Rossi]

Gordon, the other part of the argument is playoff access, including access to a number of games to help allow teams to improve over time.  If DelVal plays one less game per season because Mount Union is placed in the bracket instead of forcing the Semi-Final matchup, DelVal, potentially the best team in the East under the scenario you posed, gets one less week of practice in the playoffs, less recruiting exposure, less exposure to national-caliber opposition, etc.  It just continues to enable the Mount Union/UWW effect since these teams now have the advantage of 20 extra weeks of practice each compared to teams that didn't make the playoffs at all, with that potentially dropping to a 10-week advantage when the strongest runners up are considered.  Then, add to that the exposure nationally and the experience, and you can see how this potential seven-year phenomenon is actually being assisted by the current setup.  While it's not the NCAA's job to penalize teams like UMU and UWW, it is the NCAA's job to ensure a certain level of fairness.  That's partly why the regional system exists -- it enables some ability to balance and rank teams within boundaries since there's an acknowledgement that we can't easily compare teams fairly across regions.  I struggle with the Top 25 ballot every week in this respect, and I assume you do, too.  What information do we have in Week 12 that provides us any more assurance than the first 11 weeks that one region's teams are any better/worse than another region's teams?  In trying to do this, the East has taken it on the chin the most.  It's becoming a chicken and egg question: did one bad year in which UMU came East help pave the way for the East's overall perceived downturn?  Let's see what happens if, for two season, the East's top two teams are... God forbid... The top two seeds in the "East" bracket.  Inversely, let's see what happens to the North and West Regions if UWW and UMU stay put for seasons.  I bet the perception begins to shift.  All we have to balance the strength of the East right now nationally is "your UMU loss was prettier than mine."  I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove relative strength where I come from.

[Pat Coleman]

Gordon, the other part of the argument is playoff access, including access to a number of games to help allow teams to improve over time.

Guaranteed access is only guaranteed to one game in a single-elimination tournament. There is no entitlement to a specific number of games. Your "number" in football is one. That's it.