East Region Fan Poll

[AUKaz00]

if the E8 fielded 6, SJF and Utica would be undefeated currently, would they not?  Of course, that assumes they would've won the OOC game in place of those two teams, but at undefeated or one loss, the E8 would've received a bid (Case and Wesley both are at one loss and Case isn't a tremendous power right now). 

Utica is undefeated against teams not from Maryland, but it's not a stretch to think they might have lost to one of their 2 additional OOC opponents.  The Pioneers have squeaked by everyone they've beaten (maybe not RPI) and are probably more likely to drop a couple of their final games against Fisher, Springfield and Alfred than only lose 1.

And Fisher lost to Hobart, so a sparkling E8 slate would probably get them in as a Pool B or C, but no guarantee.

And I did joke that the E8 could add a couple SCAC teams to keep the AQ in two years, but I have no problem with that.  The system is built for Pool A qualification, not B or C.  Conferences and schools will sort themselves accordingly, just like what's happening in Division 1.  It just seems a little absurd to argue of the scraps of an extra regional bid in a tournament with a relatively predetermined outcome when it's really the system you abhor not the logical actions of the participants within that system.  It is what it is and at least we in the East have the ECAC bowls to suppliment the tournament and we can drive to most of our teams' games without having to make a weekend trip out of it like we're going to a NASCAR race or the College World Series.

[pumkinattack]

Yeah Kaz, in some ways it seems like the E8 has a little bit of an existential crisis going on and crisis management would dictate that you do whatever is necessary to show your core membership that you can retain access to the playoffs.  They guaranteed it here.  The conference may still have an issue in two years, but you deal with that then.  Springfield and Norwich didn't seem like natural fits in what is effectively a western NY conference, same way Susquehanna and Coast Guard weren't for the LL (still not sure about Merchant Marine other than that they have no other natural home and having a presence on LI is welcomed by most college presidents).  We were just geographically diverse enough in our core to cover western NY and NE NY including RPI's relationship with WPI, so having a New England component is justifiable for the LL even though it's a pretty long haul between there and UofR/Hobart.  Springfield will help bridge that on the map. 

On the playoff discussion, Gordon is right that it doesn't really matter when you play the best (other than in the rare situation where it's a 1-3 or 4pt game where home field might matter.  And Lew I agree that all systems have problems, but I don't recall anyone outside of the greater Seattle area having anything positive to say about the Seahawks-Saints situation last year, so it's not like that outcome was easily accepted nationally.  I guess the point is that if you raise the concerns or structural problems in a system there's at least a chance to improve the system.  If it goes on with everyone simply acquiescing to the situation and it's imperfections, there's no chance for any improvement. 

[lewdogg11]

Yeah Kaz, in some ways it seems like the E8 has a little bit of an existential crisis going on and crisis management would dictate that you do whatever is necessary to show your core membership that you can retain access to the playoffs.  They guaranteed it here.  The conference may still have an issue in two years, but you deal with that then.  Springfield and Norwich didn't seem like natural fits in what is effectively a western NY conference, same way Susquehanna and Coast Guard weren't for the LL (still not sure about Merchant Marine other than that they have no other natural home and having a presence on LI is welcomed by most college presidents).  We were just geographically diverse enough in our core to cover western NY and NE NY including RPI's relationship with WPI, so having a New England component is justifiable for the LL even though it's a pretty long haul between there and UofR/Hobart.  Springfield will help bridge that on the map. 

On the playoff discussion, Gordon is right that it doesn't really matter when you play the best (other than in the rare situation where it's a 1-3 or 4pt game where home field might matter.  And Lew I agree that all systems have problems, but I don't recall anyone outside of the greater Seattle area having anything positive to say about the Seahawks-Saints situation last year, so it's not like that outcome was easily accepted nationally.  I guess the point is that if you raise the concerns or structural problems in a system there's at least a chance to improve the system.  If it goes on with everyone simply acquiescing to the situation and it's imperfections, there's no chance for any improvement.

I guess what I am saying is each year is different and there's bound to be 1-2 teams that get in or don't get in every few years. DIII football now takes 32 teams across the country. Almost every team that deserves to get in gets in. Until every team in the country gets a bid and we start the tournament in August, not everyone will be happy.

[AUKaz00]

Springfield and Norwich didn't seem like natural fits in what is effectively a western NY conference, same way Susquehanna and Coast Guard weren't for the LL

That's exactly it, PA.  Perhaps us E8ers are used to the idea of having a few, bizarre associate members for Pool A purposes.  I am happy with the Frostburg and Salisbury bridge even if it meant having the Gulls make Alfred look like SUNY Maritime at Merrill.

And I think the argument that the E8 only needed one team to retain its AQ isn't accurate.  Once Norwich left, what was keeping Springfield in the conference?  If the E8 dropped into Pool B, would the Pride have not aligned with the LL to vie for that AQ?  And would adding Buffalo State, thus adding a biennial road game even father away than Alfred have been sufficient incentive for Springfield to not cut bait?

And I doubt that the E8, with at least one member who has historically preferred not to play state schools, would invite two public schools from Maryland if they had not first exhausted a number of other options.

[SJFF82]

Does it really matter all that much?  Salisbury is a part of the E8.  What is the big deal if they win the E8 and are in the South Region?  Montclair made the playoffs last year and was put in the South.  If Cortland wins the NJAC, it takes 1 NJ team out of contention.  Same thing really.  If you don't deserve to be in the playoffs, then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs.  Case closed.

I'm with LD.  As he points out, teams can and will be moved around across geographic regions.

To throw an even bigger damper on the conversation, I don't understand the preoccupation with whether Mount Union is in the "East" bracket . And we, at D3football.com, have the same preoccupation with bracketing so I'm not exempting us.

The geographic lables are just short hand. The committee could decide that Mount Union, UW-Whitewater and two non-East teams are the best four teams and build brackets around them.  It's hard for me to argue with that approach.  Or they could ignore the regional labels and throw Salisbury (or Johns Hopkins, Thomas More or Mount Union) in the "East" bracket because that's what makes sense based on the eventual participants and their geographic proximity. Irrespective of regional lables, geography will always impact the brackets.

Whether you play Mount Union in the national quarterfinals or the national semifinals, it's a difference of one week. Whenever I ask coaches or players about this issue, that's basically their response. The proverbial shrug. To win the title, you still likely have to beat Mount Union and UW-Whitewater (or a surprise team that proves to be their equal). 

Maybe there's some recruiting advantage to saying, "We were one of the last four teams in the country" and there's an extra week of practice on the line. But I don't think those benefits are a big deal.  Especially when you can still say, "We were the last team standing in this section of the country."  That's what Alfred can say, regardless of when they played Mount Union.

In my view, it's better to enjoy the weeks and games as they come and don't worry about when you're going to play Mount Union or UW-Whitewater, especially not when there's this much uncertainty.  As Keith has written in ATN, the journey is more important than the highly predictable destination of another Mount-Whitewater title game.

Oh, and get off my lawn.

I disagree that the one week doesnt matter (while acknowledging there is nothing really to be done about it).  Of course I will use Fisher as an example because that is my personal experience, and also because they experienced first hand, in back to back years what you are referring to.

In 2006, they won the East Region, both ways.  They were the last man standing for the East, but importantly they won their regional play-off bracket and advanced to the last 4.  Of course that counts for something despite MUC being the ultimate obstacle.  The very next year SJF essentially did the same thing except they lost 1 week sooner because MUC was seeded in the East (and they should have been).  If they werent though, then SJF may very well have been in the National Semis two straight years and that matters.  It is one more game, and it is in the National spotlight (ever watch the ticker on ABC sports on that Saterday when those final 4 are played?).  Plus, IF (yeah right) you happen to beat MUC and its the final 4 instead of the regional final, then you are smack dab in Salem getting ready to play for the Title.....not getting ready for a semifinal game. 

So, yes, if MUC is in your region, so be it, they gotta be in someone's right....but to say that it doesnt matter that they stand in your way in the Regional finals as opposed to thye National Semis, I disagree.

[SJFF82]

Frank and Pumpkinattack:

I know you've thought a lot about this matter.  A lot more than I have, to be honest.   In retrospect, there's not much value in me weighing in to say, "I don't care that much." I should've just kept that to myself and not diverted the conversation.

But, for some reason, it just doesn't matter that much to me whether an East region team gets to be the top seed in one of the brackets.  Maybe there have been years where an East team was tops in its bracket and it wasn't one of the best four teams in the country.  That's frequently the argument at basketball time when an East/Mid-Atlantic/Northeast team gets to host throughout a bracket.  And I don't care that much when fans of Central, Midwest or Great Lakes teams raise the same complaint.   Maybe it's some kind of inherent fairness fault in me. 

Eventually you have to beat really good teams at some place other than your own stadium to win a championship (unless we're talking women's hoops where Final Four level teams can host).  The teams that have easier roads to the national semifinals almost always get squashed once they get that far.  I can't think of an undeserving Division III football champion who only won a national championshiop because they got the perfect seeding. 

I guess my indifference comes down to two things:

* Mount Union and UW-Whitewater squash teams no matter where they play them, home or away.  I know it bothered the UWW fans when they had to play NCC or Wesley on the road.  I didn't think it would prevent UWW from winning those two games.  Wesley wasn't competitive against UWW on the road and it wasn't much better hosting UWW.  If the game was played at a neutral site, I'd expect the same result.  Mount and UW-Whitewater are currently that much better than everyone else.  Some day that won't be the case and maybe I'll care more then. 

* The playoff is designed to determine who is the best team in the country, not who are the best four teams in the country.  As long as there's a championship game on a neutral field and teams don't have an obviously non-representative path to the title game (like playing the champions of the NEFC, EFC, NATHC and UMAC in successive rounds), I'm not that worried about who gets a harder road to the national championship based on subjective criteria.

If Del Val runs the table and ends up playing Mount Union in the national quarterfinals, I won't worry that much about it.  Because they'd probably end up playing them the next week any way.  And the tournament is about figuring out who the best team is.  If Del Val can't beat them, they aren't the best team.

I will now get out of the way and let those who do care discuss the subject at hand.

ok, read this futher take after I responded....while I still like my point about getting that one more game and getting to the 'final four'....i can give your opinion more cred when you make the point that the tournament is about 1 winner not what teams feel good about themselves cuz they went to the final 4....

[clandfan]

For those of you who say it doesn't matter when you play MUC or WW,  thats BS.  It does matter. It matters to every kid on the field who has a dream of winning a national championship.  Yes, to be the best you have to beat the best but there isn't a player out there that wouldnt want that opportunity to be in the final or at the very least, the semis.  With rare exception, that last game a senior plays at the DIII level is the end.  These young men break down and cry when it is over. For you it doesn't matter but don't be so naive to think that it doesn't matter to the players on the field. They are the only ones that count.

[lewdogg11]

For those of you who say it doesn't matter when you play MUC or WW,  thats BS.  It does matter. It matters to every kid on the field who has a dream of winning a national championship.  Yes, to be the best you have to beat the best but there isn't a player out there that wouldnt want that opportunity to be in the final or at the very least, the semis.  With rare exception, that last game a senior plays at the DIII level is the end.  These young men break down and cry when it is over. For you it doesn't matter but don't be so naive to think that it doesn't matter to the players on the field. They are the only ones that count.

What about the kid who's dream is to BEAT Mount Union on the way to the National Championship?  Not all kids go to Mount Union with a loser attitude.  Some get excited for that challenge.  We got the big bad Rowan team in 1999(the team that beat Mount Union but lost in the finals) in the first round.  It was awesome to actually see a team like that up close.  And it was even better knowing that even though they were bigger, stronger, faster(and probably way older) we could play with them. 

And some year, someone will knock them off.  How about being on THAT team?

[clandfan]

LewDogg...put the crack pipe down.  If you are telling me that you would prefer to play them sooner rather than later, I don't believe you.  Sure it will be big news and a tremendous sense of accomplishment when you beat them in their house in the quarterfinals.  If you live and die in the east, apparently that is what it will take.  If given the choice between that and playing them in the finals on a neutral field, albeit they play there every December, I'll take the final along with every other kid in the DIII game.

[pg04]

OK so you won't meet Mount Union in the finals?  You'd still probably have to beat Whitewater before then.  You lose the legitimacy as soon as you tell someone who disagrees with you that they are on crack, and make generalizing statements like EVERY OTHER kid in DIII --- especially when the generalization isn't the same thing as what is being discussed.  The question isn't about whether or not players want to make it to the finals or not, it's about when they come across Mount Union.  Believe it or not, UMU has lost to UWW as many or more times than they have beaten them.  So you'd still have to beat an equally good or better team before that. 

[lewdogg11]

I'll respond later.  I'm busy...

[lewdogg11]

***For the record, i'd rather get knocked out of the playoffs by Mount Union than Alfred(in my final game...as a senior...leaving it all out on the field)

[Jonny Utah]

I think clands point is (or should be) that you want your last game to be in the national championship game and not the first round.  I would agree with that.

But LDs point is also valid.  You want to lose to the best team in the country rather than a team that loses to that best team.  I'm just thinking back when Ithaca loses to Mt. union in the first round in a game that was close until the 3rd quarter.  Then TCNJ uspets RPI and gets crushed by Mt .Union in the second round.  I'd rather be Ithaca that season than TCNJ.

[SJFF82]

I think clands point is (or should be) that you want your last game to be in the national championship game and not the first round.  I would agree with that.

But LDs point is also valid.  You want to lose to the best team in the country rather than a team that loses to that best team.  I'm just thinking back when Ithaca loses to Mt. union in the first round in a game that was close until the 3rd quarter.  Then TCNJ uspets RPI and gets crushed by Mt .Union in the second round.  I'd rather be Ithaca that season than TCNJ.

man, this just makes no sense to me, am I misunderstanding you....and perhaps LD?  Your post effectively states that you would rather lose to MUC in the first round, than in the second round?  I dont get it....or I just completely misunderstand your post.

It seems to me that the whole issue has been contorted now.  Thye earlier posts were discussing whether it mattered whether MUC was in your bracket in the scenario where you were going to either lose to them in the Regional finals, or the National semis and beyond.  It cannot be about whether the score was close in the 3rd quarter and then it was a blowout and then someone else upset someone and then got crushed, because that is all after the fact.  Before the games are played, would you rather have an impending showdown with MUC in the Regional finals or beyond.

It was gordonmann's point that it didnt matter because if you die, you die....and the play-offs are about a champion not who shats themself when the Purple people eaters take the field.  Mine, and others have claimed that one more game does matter, especially when it puts you one game closer to the prize.

[lewdogg11]

I think clands point is (or should be) that you want your last game to be in the national championship game and not the first round.  I would agree with that.

But LDs point is also valid.  You want to lose to the best team in the country rather than a team that loses to that best team.  I'm just thinking back when Ithaca loses to Mt. union in the first round in a game that was close until the 3rd quarter.  Then TCNJ uspets RPI and gets crushed by Mt .Union in the second round.  I'd rather be Ithaca that season than TCNJ.

man, this just makes no sense to me, am I misunderstanding you....and perhaps LD?  Your post effectively states that you would rather lose to MUC in the first round, than in the second round?  I dont get it....or I just completely misunderstand your post.

It seems to me that the whole issue has been contorted now.  Thye earlier posts were discussing whether it mattered whether MUC was in your bracket in the scenario where you were going to either lose to them in the Regional finals, or the National semis and beyond.  It cannot be about whether the score was close in the 3rd quarter and then it was a blowout and then someone else upset someone and then got crushed, because that is all after the fact.  Before the games are played, would you rather have an impending showdown with MUC in the Regional finals or beyond.

It was gordonmann's point that it didnt matter because if you die, you die....and the play-offs are about a champion not who shats themself when the Purple people eaters take the field.  Mine, and others have claimed that one more game does matter, especially when it puts you one game closer to the prize.

Yeah, you definitely shat yourself when reading these.  My bottom line is this....

Yes, EVERY team wants to get as far as humanly possible.  That's a no-brainer. 

If you're playing Mount Union in the first round, chances are you don't have much of a shot to win against anyone because you're an 8 seed. 

If you're playing Mount Union in the second round, same deal, you probably didn't have much of a chance to beat the 1 seed no matter who it is.  But if you did make it that far, would you rather lose to Alfred or Mount Union? 

If you make it to the 3rd round and beyond, the games just don't get any easier.  You're gonna play Wesley, UWW, Mount Union, MHB, St. Johns, Linfield etc etc who are perennial powerhouses.  Someone has to lose.  Let's stop crying like f'ing babies.   Mount Union is a d3 football team.  They should be treated like one.

UWW had to go on the road last year.  You know how they whined?  They beat everyone.