East Region Fan Poll

[pumkinattack]

Thanks for the info on Wesley.  I know it will be a challenge healthy, and our qb and top 3 wr's are injured (at least two will play though one will be playing with a torn pcl).  It would take a tight complete game.  On the other hand with your two layer comp- Sals to Fisher, please note that we went to Fisher (only about 40 min down he thruway) amd laid a 36 pt loss on them which every bit he game he score indicates (we may have had aome revenge in mind from the prior year), so that's something if you believe in the transitive.

I didn't look at Philly or Wilmington, but truthfully I've got it in my head to drive.  I've got buttloads of airmiles I could use too and it looks like I roped a client meeting in Raleigh for Friday morning, which gets me a chunk of the way on the company dime.

As far as the ducking commentary, I guess they don't teach logic in college anymore.  Because someone said no doesn't tell anyone what yhe reason for that decision was.  Really all these people are doing is impugning the integrity of these kids, Coach Cragg and he institution.  I have major, major issues with the AD, but hese kids fight hard and duck no one.  Coach Cragg has proven his willingness to take risks over his 15 year career that no who's ever paid attention can deny (fake punts in league champ games or contested playoff games from inside their own 20, regularly going for two and the win in 1st overyime, etc).  None of these folks know anything about Hobart, but we compete in DI lacrosse with the biggest schools im the country without scholarships (have petitioned the ncaa since we had no choice but to move up in orde to maintain contiguous rivalries with Syracuae and Cornell that are older than more than 50% of the schools participating in D3 football) and have played all sorts of bcs schools with far greater resources for years.  We were in the Patriot League and won 3 of 5 titles and now are in a wayward league that involves travel to denver, colorado springs, columbus oh, ann arbor (now), baltimore, louisville, etc.  We didn't file for an ECAC game in 09 because they felt they had to spread the money around the non lax sports.

[Upstate]

It's not like Hobart is lining up any top 15 teams in their OOC schedule over the past decade or anything...

So I seriously doubt they'd want to schedule a top 5 team...

[Frank Rossi]

Frank you have to know now that this line of reasoning can never be used again.  I stopped using it 10 years ago when it appeared that every year the NCAA didn't follow their own "rules" regarding playoff selection.  We knew 10 years ago that they use "guidelines" and not rules.  The only thing set in stone with the NCAA d3 playoffs is that pool A teams are going to get spots.  Nothing else has ever been guarenteed.

2 things:

1) Don't shoot the messenger for conveying others' reasons; and
2) Hence why I used the word "quasi" -- which was as much of a commentary by me as you'll find in that explanation.

[Jonny Utah]

Frank you have to know now that this line of reasoning can never be used again.  I stopped using it 10 years ago when it appeared that every year the NCAA didn't follow their own "rules" regarding playoff selection.  We knew 10 years ago that they use "guidelines" and not rules.  The only thing set in stone with the NCAA d3 playoffs is that pool A teams are going to get spots.  Nothing else has ever been guarenteed.

2 things:

1) Don't shoot the messenger for conveying others' reasons; and
2) Hence why I used the word "quasi" -- which was as much of a commentary by me as you'll find in that explanation.

Oh I'm not trying to shoot the messenger here.  I see your points about Hobart and kind of agree with a lot of it.  It does seem to me though that you and others always use the NCAA playoff selection "rules" when trying to defend scheduling or analyzing playoff potential scnerios late in the season.  I gave up on that 10 years ago when it was clear to me that the NCAA never went by any set of rules.  They only used guidelines.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Although you took it easy on Adrian (only 35-0), recognize that there is a difference between 'playing up' and 'suicide'.  I have no first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge, but suspect that the Bulldogs realized you were SO far out of their league that they really had nothing to learn.  Most of the time teams need to grow by steps; games against, say, Wabash or IWU might be beneficial - games against UWW or UMU might just be 'soul-crushing'.

Good point.

[pumkinattack]

I don't agree that it was money, but the lax point was that this school has reveled in playing up against the biggest in the country (regulartly would play the DI champ the following year after winning the D3 championship, had a great win vs Cuse when both were respective #1's in 1986, etc.).  Anyone who actually knows anything about Hobart knows that.  They also manage to knock out academic all americans (http://hwsathletics.com/news/2011/11/10/HFB_1110111657.aspx?path=football). 

How are these Fisher people the biggest babies I've ever met?  First UofR "is like that" and now there crying and making excuses for a 5+ td win on their own field.  And we know you logic is flawed at best given the posts on the Pool C board ("Are you calling Pat a liar?" No the reality is there is a different between correlation and causation, how hard is that to understand for a college educated person?).  Oh wait, that was another SJF poster named "time for a change".  That's someone else right? 

Even irony is being used on the presumption that someone has some evidence that the people at Hobart said "we're afraid to play Wesley so were going to reject that".  That presumption is based on conjecture and not only incomplete knowledge of the facts, but also a complete lack of any knowledge of the institutions that these people are impugning.  In fact you're calling Coach Cragg and Hanna (I wish you could prove it with Hanna to add to my list of grievances, but I know you can't) liars.  The reality is we got a sh**ty seed becase the Liberty League has looked like Pee Wee football since for the past three seasons, gotten blown out in the playoffs the past two years, and Hobart lost to a sub .500 team at home.  We collectively earned the seeding we got, even if Hobart deserved better (not saying they did, buteven if that were the case, someone from the LL is going to have to go out and prove it). 

The other thing I forgot for the Wesleydad is that the seniors did play Mt Union is the 2nd round in 2008, so they've got some experience against top 5 competition (and from those I heard from on that team at the time, they loved every minute of it except the outcome).  Had a defense to compete, but the O was missing their top TE and the QB and WR were playing with meaningful injuries (kind of like this year). 

[ExTartanPlayer]

As far as the ducking commentary, I guess they don't teach logic in college anymore.  Because someone said no doesn't tell anyone what yhe reason for that decision was.  Really all these people are doing is impugning the integrity of these kids, Coach Cragg and he institution. 

One point to emphasize here is the separation between the adminstration's actions and the kids' wishes.  People talking about how Hobart (or anyone, for that matter) is "ducking" a tough game often make it sound like a collective effort when, in reality, the players have ZERO control over the situation.

(Kinda like how some people have argued that Penn State should forfeit the rest of this football season - as though the current players are somehow at fault for this whole mess?)

[Upstate]

How are these Fisher people the biggest babies I've ever met?  First UofR "is like that" and now there crying and making excuses for a 5+ td win on their own field.  And we know you logic is flawed at best given the posts on the Pool C board ("Are you calling Pat a liar?" No the reality is there is a different between correlation and causation, how hard is that to understand for a college educated person?).  Oh wait, that was another SJF poster named "time for a change".  That's someone else right? 

Hey we're not the team that choose to have back to back bye weeks instead of playing Wesley...

I just went through Hobarts schedule the past decade, congrats you played some middling teams from the CC. Seriously, Carnagie Mellon, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall?

You're biggest OOC win since 2002 was just this past year when you took Fisher to the woodshed, which coincidentally was the first time Bart has beaten Fisher since 2001...

Schedule someone FCOL, would it hurt to play a somewhat decent NJAC or a MAC school or heaven forbid a state school? Or are you guys too good for them???

Enjoy the beat down from Wesley, maybe if you played them during the regular season you could have been higher than a 7th seed...

[Jonny Utah]

As far as the ducking commentary, I guess they don't teach logic in college anymore.  Because someone said no doesn't tell anyone what yhe reason for that decision was.  Really all these people are doing is impugning the integrity of these kids, Coach Cragg and he institution. 

One point to emphasize here is the separation between the adminstration's actions and the kids' wishes.  People talking about how Hobart (or anyone, for that matter) is "ducking" a tough game often make it sound like a collective effort when, in reality, the players have ZERO control over the situation.

(Kinda like how some people have argued that Penn State should forfeit the rest of this football season - as though the current players are somehow at fault for this whole mess?)

Although I don't think Penn State should forfeit anything, players do get punished all the time when coaches break the rules.

[Jonny Utah]

In the end what can we say about Hobarts 8 game schedule?

-If they played Wesley, they still would have made the playoffs with a pool A bid.
-If they beat Wesley, they would have a home game in the first round.
-If they lost to Wesley, they probably would have been 50/50 for a home game in the playoffs, but wouldn't have been playing Wesley.
-They would have lost some money on an extra football game.
-If they played someone else in that 9th or 10th game, they still would have made the playoffs and may not have pissed off the NCAA gods and had a home playoff game.

I really don't want to hear the money arguement from schools like Hobart though.  If you want a d3 football team, you have to spend some money on it. 

Coach Cragg is the man though.  He isn't afraid of anything.

[gordonmann]

Although you took it easy on Adrian (only 35-0), recognize that there is a difference between 'playing up' and 'suicide'.   I have no first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge, but suspect that the Bulldogs realized you were SO far out of their league that they really had nothing to learn.  Most of the time teams need to grow by steps; games against, say, Wabash or IWU might be beneficial - games against UWW or UMU might just be 'soul-crushing'.

This is exactly right. Different programs have different goals and approaches to meeting them.  +k

[ExTartanPlayer]

I just went through Hobarts schedule the past decade...Seriously, Carnegie Mellon, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall?

You're biggest OOC win since 2002 was just this past year when you took Fisher to the woodshed, which coincidentally was the first time Bart has beaten Fisher since 2001...

Your gripe doesn't make all that much sense here.

Hobart played Carnegie Mellon from 2007-10, meaning that the series was likely "planned" somewhere in the 2006-07 timeframe.  CMU was coming off a playoff appearance in 2006, blew out fellow Liberty League member Rochester in the season opener in 2007, and went on to win an ECAC bowl game that season.  When the series was initiated, the CMU program was at a high-water mark, and even with a slight decline afterwards CMU was .500 or better in every season that Hobart played them except 2010 (when they finished 4-6).  That seems like a pretty respectable nonconference opponent to schedule.

Dickinson has been a long-time opponent for Hobart in the season opener (going back to at least 1999).  During that time, Dickinson has rarely been truly GOOD but never have they been really BAD either (they've hovered around .500 for most of that stretch, with really good seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009; one playoff appearance in 2006).

Franklin and Marshall fits a pretty similar description to Dickinson - they have rarely been really GOOD but they are never really BAD either.  Again, it seems like a perfectly reasonable nonconference game for Hobart.

Your gripe doesn't really make that much sense here.  It's not like they schedule first-year programs or NEFC teams.  Sure, they aren't playing Mount Union in nonconference games, but they aren't scheduling cupcakes either.

As for the other teams that you would have them play:  NJAC teams only play one nonconference game, and they often schedule MAC schools.  Similarly, the MAC only has two openings for nonconference games (though I think that's about to drop to one with Stevenson starting a program), and since they often schedule NJAC schools, those are again tough to come by.  The only realistic option is scheduling an Empire 8 opponent...which they have done by scheduling St. John Fisher.

[Jonny Utah]

Thanks for the info on Wesley.  I know it will be a challenge healthy, and our qb and top 3 wr's are injured (at least two will play though one will be playing with a torn pcl).  It would take a tight complete game.  On the other hand with your two layer comp- Sals to Fisher, please note that we went to Fisher (only about 40 min down he thruway) amd laid a 36 pt loss on them which every bit he game he score indicates (we may have had aome revenge in mind from the prior year), so that's something if you believe in the transitive.

I didn't look at Philly or Wilmington, but truthfully I've got it in my head to drive.  I've got buttloads of airmiles I could use too and it looks like I roped a client meeting in Raleigh for Friday morning, which gets me a chunk of the way on the company dime.

As far as the ducking commentary, I guess they don't teach logic in college anymore.  Because someone said no doesn't tell anyone what yhe reason for that decision was.  Really all these people are doing is impugning the integrity of these kids, Coach Cragg and he institution.  I have major, major issues with the AD, but hese kids fight hard and duck no one.  Coach Cragg has proven his willingness to take risks over his 15 year career that no who's ever paid attention can deny (fake punts in league champ games or contested playoff games from inside their own 20, regularly going for two and the win in 1st overyime, etc).  None of these folks know anything about Hobart, but we compete in DI lacrosse with the biggest schools im the country without scholarships (have petitioned the ncaa since we had no choice but to move up in orde to maintain contiguous rivalries with Syracuae and Cornell that are older than more than 50% of the schools participating in D3 football) and have played all sorts of bcs schools with far greater resources for years.  We were in the Patriot League and won 3 of 5 titles and now are in a wayward league that involves travel to denver, colorado springs, columbus oh, ann arbor (now), baltimore, louisville, etc.  We didn't file for an ECAC game in 09 because they felt they had to spread the money around the non lax sports.

Is Hobart in this financial situation just because they want to keep a Cornell/Syracuse lax series going?  I think they have a choice to stay d3 lax and end those games with Cornell and Syracuse if they wanted to.  Maybe Hobart has some big donors whos donations are pending them playing Cuse and Cornell in Lax?

Although I could see Ithaca do anything in its power to keep the Cortaca football game, they still have the choice to end it if they wanted (I wonder if the two schools lose or make money off Cortaca)

[MasterJedi]

AUKaz, i also found the piece of information about Hobart turning down the game with Wesley and then getting them in the playoffs interesting.  Waiting to hear about Hobart from anyone who saw them play this year.

Nothing against any of the Hobart  fans, but I will be rooting for Wesley in this one. One thing UW-W and Wesley have in common is the unwillingness of schools to play them. I know a school has a right to say yes and no to games, but I also have a right to express an opinion about it.  I always find it puzzling at best when a school has a chance to play a higher level of competition and turns it down. I think it's great the NCAA National Selection Committee brought Hobart to Wesley.  If Hobart turned down the Wesley game to have a better chance to make the playoffs, I guess they got their reward.  We'll see how competitive they are now that they are there.

I was bummed when Albion beat Adrian because I was hoping Adrian would be coming to UW-W in the first round.  They scheduled a home and home against UW-W for 2010 and 2011, but backed out of the second year.

Although you took it easy on Adrian (only 35-0), recognize that there is a difference between 'playing up' and 'suicide'.   I have no first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge, but suspect that the Bulldogs realized you were SO far out of their league that they really had nothing to learn.  Most of the time teams need to grow by steps; games against, say, Wabash or IWU might be beneficial - games against UWW or UMU might just be 'soul-crushing'.

Adrian canceled because UWW was "running up the score" by having their backup QB throwing in the 4th quarter while that's what Adrian did when they beat Husson 77-7 this year. There's a difference between what you said and what you said and what Adrian's coach did (wanting a cupcake) since Adrian did compete in that game. Their defense was pretty good.

[Upstate]

I just went through Hobarts schedule the past decade...Seriously, Carnegie Mellon, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall?

You're biggest OOC win since 2002 was just this past year when you took Fisher to the woodshed, which coincidentally was the first time Bart has beaten Fisher since 2001...

Your gripe doesn't make all that much sense here.

Hobart played Carnegie Mellon from 2007-10, meaning that the series was likely "planned" somewhere in the 2006-07 timeframe.  CMU was coming off a playoff appearance in 2006, blew out fellow Liberty League member Rochester in the season opener in 2007, and went on to win an ECAC bowl game that season.  When the series was initiated, the CMU program was at a high-water mark, and even with a slight decline afterwards CMU was .500 or better in every season that Hobart played them except 2010 (when they finished 4-6).  That seems like a pretty respectable nonconference opponent to schedule.

Dickinson has been a long-time opponent for Hobart in the season opener (going back to at least 1999).  During that time, Dickinson has rarely been truly GOOD but never have they been really BAD either (they've hovered around .500 for most of that stretch, with really good seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009; one playoff appearance in 2006).

Franklin and Marshall fits a pretty similar description to Dickinson - they have rarely been really GOOD but they are never really BAD either.  Again, it seems like a perfectly reasonable nonconference game for Hobart.

Your gripe doesn't really make that much sense here.  It's not like they schedule first-year programs or NEFC teams.  Sure, they aren't playing Mount Union in nonconference games, but they aren't scheduling cupcakes either.

As for the other teams that you would have them play:  NJAC teams only play one nonconference game, and they often schedule MAC schools.  Similarly, the MAC only has two openings for nonconference games (though I think that's about to drop to one with Stevenson starting a program), and since they often schedule NJAC schools, those are again tough to come by.  The only realistic option is scheduling an Empire 8 opponent...which they have done by scheduling St. John Fisher.

Dickinson- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
F&M- 2 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
CMU- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000

Those are some really impressive teams...