East Region Fan Poll

[Pat Coleman]

-They would have lost some money on an extra football game.

Actually, they might have been able to get a guarantee, even if a small one, to travel to Wesley for a one-game series.

[Bombers798891]

Your gripe doesn't make all that much sense here.

Hobart played Carnegie Mellon from 2007-10, meaning that the series was likely "planned" somewhere in the 2006-07 timeframe.  CMU was coming off a playoff appearance in 2006, blew out fellow Liberty League member Rochester in the season opener in 2007, and went on to win an ECAC bowl game that season.  When the series was initiated, the CMU program was at a high-water mark, and even with a slight decline afterwards CMU was .500 or better in every season that Hobart played them except 2010 (when they finished 4-6).  That seems like a pretty respectable nonconference opponent to schedule.

Dickinson has been a long-time opponent for Hobart in the season opener (going back to at least 1999).  During that time, Dickinson has rarely been truly GOOD but never have they been really BAD either (they've hovered around .500 for most of that stretch, with really good seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009; one playoff appearance in 2006).

Franklin and Marshall fits a pretty similar description to Dickinson - they have rarely been really GOOD but they are never really BAD either.  Again, it seems like a perfectly reasonable nonconference game for Hobart.

Your gripe doesn't really make that much sense here.  It's not like they schedule first-year programs or NEFC teams.  Sure, they aren't playing Mount Union in nonconference games, but they aren't scheduling cupcakes either.

As for the other teams that you would have them play:  NJAC teams only play one nonconference game, and they often schedule MAC schools.  Similarly, the MAC only has two openings for nonconference games (though I think that's about to drop to one with Stevenson starting a program), and since they often schedule NJAC schools, those are again tough to come by.  The only realistic option is scheduling an Empire 8 opponent...which they have done by scheduling St. John Fisher.

Hobart and Ithaca should renew their series.

I think you're right that Hobart is scheduling middle of the road OOC teams, but for a team that churns out eight and nine win seasons and qualifies for the NCAA's on a pretty regular basis, I am surprised they haven't scheduled more ambitiously. Bart's right on that cusp (in my mind) between very good and a power in the region. Playing up might be a ticket to that. Is Wesley "suicide"? Probably for that one game--and that season's Pool C bid.

But, you have to ask, what's the message you send to your team by scheduling that game? What does it say to the administration about your goals for the program? In the long run, that might help more than a loss hurts. Again, this isn't true for everyone. The Wick had a chance to play Wesley, but they don't have as strong a program as Hobart.

The Statesmen's OOC scheduling makes them seem, in my view, content. Content to be in contention in the LL each year, cranking out those 8-9 win seasons, maybe winning a game in the NCAAs. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but I could see them aiming for more.

[AUKaz00]

Only 4 submissions at this point, so I'll hold off on posting the poll for a bit.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Hobart and Ithaca should renew their series.

I think you're right that Hobart is scheduling middle of the road OOC teams, but for a team that churns out eight and nine win seasons and qualifies for the NCAA's on a pretty regular basis, I am surprised they haven't scheduled more ambitiously. Bart's right on that cusp (in my mind) between very good and a power in the region. Playing up might be a ticket to that. Is Wesley "suicide"? Probably for that one game--and that season's Pool C bid.

But, you have to ask, what's the message you send to your team by scheduling that game? What does it say to the administration about your goals for the program? In the long run, that might help more than a loss hurts. Again, this isn't true for everyone. The Wick had a chance to play Wesley, but they don't have as strong a program as Hobart.

The Statesmen's OOC scheduling makes them seem, in my view, content. Content to be in contention in the LL each year, cranking out those 8-9 win seasons, maybe winning a game in the NCAAs. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but I could see them aiming for more.

I agree with you, Bombers.

I was a little more taken aback at Upstate's assertion that Hobart was scheduling "pathetic" teams by calling out the likes of Dickinson, Franklin and Marshall, and my alma mater.  None of those are fantastic programs, but they are all very respectable middel-of-the-road teams; I took exception to Upstate acting as though they were scheduling pure cupcakes.

In particular, the Hobart-CMU series kicked off right after we went to the playoffs in 2006 and followed that with a decent 2007 season.  It's not Hobart's fault that CMU fell off after that.  Even Dickinson and F&M have had a few decent seasons during the timeframe referenced, and they seem like reasonable "peer" institutions for Hobart to play in OOC games.

With that said: I think that these passages of yours are absolutely accurate.

"...for a team that churns out eight and nine win seasons and qualifies for the NCAA's on a pretty regular basis, I am surprised they haven't scheduled more ambitiously. Bart's right on that cusp (in my mind) between very good and a power in the region. Playing up might be a ticket to that."

"The Statesmen's OOC scheduling makes them seem, in my view, content. Content to be in contention in the LL each year, cranking out those 8-9 win seasons, maybe winning a game in the NCAAs. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but I could see them aiming for more."

Should they schedule more ambitiously?  Yeah, probably.
Is their schedule right not as horrible as Upstate's trying to say?  No.

[pumkinattack]

I can't really aruge with the past few posts other that to say that Dickinson has been going on since before Cragg got there and it looks like a real traditional game since you're talking about an entire generation.  There's also the series with Alfred (and personally I'd love to have AU or IC back on the schedule AND a 10 game schedule that we had for part of when I played).  Other than that, I'll repeat that Coach Cragg and the kids have proven every year that they don't back down from a challenge.  It's entirely possible that Hanna and above want CC schools because we compete with them for students, but that's higher up the food chain, if even true and they certainly won't admit it to us former players (and/or alums). 

Of course, if they get into the playoffs doing it that way, they get that competition in and/or out of region (except the NEFC matchups, Widener, JCU, Cortland, Lyco, Rowan, Mt Union, now Wesley).  The risk is that you don't make the playoffs and the team deteriorates because of that miss.  Hobart's had two tough years out of the playoffs, but they're back in a weaker league than their last appearance. 

The two ironies of Upstate's bitterness is that if they are really seeded higher, than means they didn't really value the blowout of SJF very much and that he's complaining about scheduling when we just completed a home and home with them. 

Jonny, on Lax.  It's what the school's known for and about.  Those rivalries might be the most important and best driver of applicants to the school when competing with LL, IC/AU, CC and some of the NESCAC schools for students.  It gives Hobart a national brand.  People I've met in Atlanta the past few years have surprisingly known about Hobart (they always ask "did you play lacrosse there" as if it's the only reason the school exists).  Being in the LL and playing all D3 would make them generic and lose a serious competitive advantage.  Look at the listed recruits that are known for next year (and whatever you think about the rules, these kids end up getting pretty good packages, but they bring non athlete, full paying buddies with them often):
 
131 1 Miller, Luke Vienna VA Gonzaga DC Defense E Hobart
769 1 Llewellyn, Gavin Towson MD St. Paul's School MD Attack/​Midfield R Hobart
83 1 Graham, Bud Orangeville ON Culver Academy IN Attack E Hobart
76 1 Opsahl, Matt Potomac MD Bullis School MD Attack E Hobart
286 1 Sipe, Charles Charlottesville VA St. Anne's-Belfield VA Midfield/​FO E Hobart

[Yanks 99]

Your gripe doesn't make all that much sense here.

Hobart played Carnegie Mellon from 2007-10, meaning that the series was likely "planned" somewhere in the 2006-07 timeframe.  CMU was coming off a playoff appearance in 2006, blew out fellow Liberty League member Rochester in the season opener in 2007, and went on to win an ECAC bowl game that season.  When the series was initiated, the CMU program was at a high-water mark, and even with a slight decline afterwards CMU was .500 or better in every season that Hobart played them except 2010 (when they finished 4-6).  That seems like a pretty respectable nonconference opponent to schedule.

Dickinson has been a long-time opponent for Hobart in the season opener (going back to at least 1999).  During that time, Dickinson has rarely been truly GOOD but never have they been really BAD either (they've hovered around .500 for most of that stretch, with really good seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009; one playoff appearance in 2006).

Franklin and Marshall fits a pretty similar description to Dickinson - they have rarely been really GOOD but they are never really BAD either.  Again, it seems like a perfectly reasonable nonconference game for Hobart.

Your gripe doesn't really make that much sense here.  It's not like they schedule first-year programs or NEFC teams.  Sure, they aren't playing Mount Union in nonconference games, but they aren't scheduling cupcakes either.

As for the other teams that you would have them play:  NJAC teams only play one nonconference game, and they often schedule MAC schools.  Similarly, the MAC only has two openings for nonconference games (though I think that's about to drop to one with Stevenson starting a program), and since they often schedule NJAC schools, those are again tough to come by.  The only realistic option is scheduling an Empire 8 opponent...which they have done by scheduling St. John Fisher.

Hobart and Ithaca should renew their series.

I think you're right that Hobart is scheduling middle of the road OOC teams, but for a team that churns out eight and nine win seasons and qualifies for the NCAA's on a pretty regular basis, I am surprised they haven't scheduled more ambitiously. Bart's right on that cusp (in my mind) between very good and a power in the region. Playing up might be a ticket to that. Is Wesley "suicide"? Probably for that one game--and that season's Pool C bid.

But, you have to ask, what's the message you send to your team by scheduling that game? What does it say to the administration about your goals for the program? In the long run, that might help more than a loss hurts. Again, this isn't true for everyone. The Wick had a chance to play Wesley, but they don't have as strong a program as Hobart.

The Statesmen's OOC scheduling makes them seem, in my view, content. Content to be in contention in the LL each year, cranking out those 8-9 win seasons, maybe winning a game in the NCAAs. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but I could see them aiming for more.

Not sure where Hobart stands on this...but I know that the "nixing" of the Wesley match up with Hartwick (when Hartwick went to 9 games for the first time in 2008) was completely financially driven by the administration.  Hartwick was in the midst of coming out of the depths in 2007 and 2008, following four straight sub .500 seasons (2-7 in 2003, 1-8 in 2004, and back to back 4-6 seasons in 2005 and 2006 even with Boltus).   Then they shocked everyone and won the E8 in 2007.  Going into the 2008 season, everyone knew Boltus had a shot at breaking the all-time D3 passing record (which he did...though another QB that year passed him that year and he finished 2nd All-Time).  I know that nobody associated with the football program was happy with losing that 10th game...whether it was to Wesley or any other non-league game...because not only did it take away a chance for everyone to play a football game (primary reason), but it took away a chance for a special player to go after a pretty big record (secondary reason).  At that point, Wick wasn't getting in the tournament based on their non-conference schedule (even with a potential loss to Wesley), and would have needed to win the E8 anyways.

I clearly don't know as much about the Hobart scheduling situation...but my guess is that the coaching staff had absolutely nothing to do with it.  In all my years of being associated, or following, football I haven't seen too many football coaches (especially at the college level) that would purposely take a bye week (or in Hobart's case multiple bye weeks) as opposed to playing an actual game. 

[Upstate]

The two ironies of Upstate's bitterness is that if they are really seeded higher, than means they didn't really value the blowout of SJF very much and that he's complaining about scheduling when we just completed a home and home with them. 

Fisher, even when they sucked, always scheduled up.  They weren't content with being content...

They played the top LL schools, the top NJAC schools and SUNY schools which were always bigger & stronger than SJF, those SUNY schools are the schools that the LL seems to avoid like the plague...

Not to mention being the only one in the east that had the balls to schedule MUC, which I guarantee wouldn't even be in the thoughts of anyone from the LL, sure they got their heads kicked in but it does a lot more for a program to test yourself instead of scheduling teams that aren't a real threat...

Congrats to Bart for beating SJF, I mean it was only the first time in 4 tries since 2002 and it only took them having 21 days to prepare & the SJF coaches trying to make Kramer play like Bailey to do so...

But hey, have fun playing Utica the next two years...

[ExTartanPlayer]

Dickinson- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
F&M- 2 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
CMU- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000

Those are some really impressive teams...

I took the liberty of looking up a few SJF nonconference opponents.

2011

Buff State - 1 season with 6+ wins since 2000 (and that was all the way back IN 2000)
Rochester - 3 seasons with 6+ wins since 2000 (2000, 2006, 2007)
Hobart (covered here)

2010

Brockport State - 6 seasons with 6+ wins, but NONE since going 7-4 in 2008
Buff State (covered above)
Rochester (covered above)
Hobart (covered above)
Frostburg State - 2 seasons with 6+ wins, none since going 6-5 in 2005

If you go back to 2007, we can include King's, a doormat from the MAC.

SJF deserves a lot of credit for having the balls to schedule Mount Union in 2008-09.  Other than that, their nonconference scheduling has been pretty similar to Hobart's over the past five years.  Playing Buff State, Rochester, Frostburg State is certainly no more impressive than Dickinson, F & M, Carnegie Mellon and arguably less so.

[lewdogg11]

The two ironies of Upstate's bitterness is that if they are really seeded higher, than means they didn't really value the blowout of SJF very much and that he's complaining about scheduling when we just completed a home and home with them. 

Fisher, even when they sucked, always scheduled up.  They weren't content with being content...

They played the top LL schools, the top NJAC schools and SUNY schools which were always bigger & stronger than SJF, those SUNY schools are the schools that the LL seems to avoid like the plague...

Not to mention being the only one in the east that had the balls to schedule MUC, which I guarantee wouldn't even be in the thoughts of anyone from the LL, sure they got their heads kicked in but it does a lot more for a program to test yourself instead of scheduling teams that aren't a real threat...

Congrats to Bart for beating SJF, I mean it was only the first time in 4 tries since 2002 and it only took them having 21 days to prepare & the SJF coaches trying to make Kramer play like Bailey to do so...

But hey, have fun playing Utica the next two years...

Alright, let's all pipe down here.  As an RPI fan, I think Hobart does a pretty decent job scheduling OOC historically.  They typically have at least 1 good test on their OOC schedule. 

I don't think anyone was thrilled with their 8 game schedule this year and hopefully it won't happen moving forward.  There is no need for Fisher to thump their chest over their own scheduling.  It also denied them the chance to make the postseason rather recently.

[Jonny Utah]

Dickinson- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
F&M- 2 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
CMU- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000

Those are some really impressive teams...

I took the liberty of looking up a few SJF nonconference opponents.

2011

Buff State - 1 season with 6+ wins since 2000 (and that was all the way back IN 2000)
Rochester - 3 seasons with 6+ wins since 2000 (2000, 2006, 2007)
Hobart (covered here)

2010

Brockport State - 6 seasons with 6+ wins, but NONE since going 7-4 in 2008
Buff State (covered above)
Rochester (covered above)
Hobart (covered above)
Frostburg State - 2 seasons with 6+ wins, none since going 6-5 in 2005

If you go back to 2007, we can include King's, a doormat from the MAC.

SJF deserves a lot of credit for having the balls to schedule Mount Union in 2008-09.  Other than that, their nonconference scheduling has been pretty similar to Hobart's over the past five years.  Playing Buff State, Rochester, Frostburg State is certainly no more impressive than Dickinson, F & M, Carnegie Mellon and arguably less so.

I think part of it though is that SJF will play teams close just to get games.  Why wouldn't they play Brockport, Rochester and Buff State?  Those are the closes d3 schools to them.  Hobart seems to play or not play schools based on other things.  SJF doesn't care about who they play, as long as they have 10 games.  It now seems like the NCAA approves of that mentality.

[Jonny Utah]

Jonny, on Lax.  It's what the school's known for and about.  Those rivalries might be the most important and best driver of applicants to the school when competing with LL, IC/AU, CC and some of the NESCAC schools for students.  It gives Hobart a national brand.  People I've met in Atlanta the past few years have surprisingly known about Hobart (they always ask "did you play lacrosse there" as if it's the only reason the school exists).  Being in the LL and playing all D3 would make them generic and lose a serious competitive advantage.  Look at the listed recruits that are known for next year (and whatever you think about the rules, these kids end up getting pretty good packages, but they bring non athlete, full paying buddies with them often):
 
131 1 Miller, Luke Vienna VA Gonzaga DC Defense E Hobart
769 1 Llewellyn, Gavin Towson MD St. Paul's School MD Attack/​Midfield R Hobart
83 1 Graham, Bud Orangeville ON Culver Academy IN Attack E Hobart
76 1 Opsahl, Matt Potomac MD Bullis School MD Attack E Hobart
286 1 Sipe, Charles Charlottesville VA St. Anne's-Belfield VA Midfield/​FO E Hobart

Oh I'm a lax guy pumpkin, and I know all about Hobart lax and their history.  I am still involved in lax circles where there are a lot of old Hobart guys who wish they were playing for national championships on ESPN against Middlebury instead of being in a league with Bellarmine.  And I've been to Harvard/Cornell lax games with less people than a Hobart/St. Lawrence football game would get.  I could be wrong, but I still think some of the Hobart crowd overestimates the whole d1 lax thing.

They say the same thing about that Cornell/Syracuse game though.  They admit that Hobart does not want to let those two games go.

[Upstate]

Dickinson- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
F&M- 2 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000
CMU- 3 seasons with more than 6 wins since 2000

Those are some really impressive teams...

I took the liberty of looking up a few SJF nonconference opponents.

2011

Buff State - 1 season with 6+ wins since 2000 (and that was all the way back IN 2000)
Rochester - 3 seasons with 6+ wins since 2000 (2000, 2006, 2007)
Hobart (covered here)

2010

Brockport State - 6 seasons with 6+ wins, but NONE since going 7-4 in 2008
Buff State (covered above)
Rochester (covered above)
Hobart (covered above)
Frostburg State - 2 seasons with 6+ wins, none since going 6-5 in 2005

If you go back to 2007, we can include King's, a doormat from the MAC.

SJF deserves a lot of credit for having the balls to schedule Mount Union in 2008-09.  Other than that, their nonconference scheduling has been pretty similar to Hobart's over the past five years.  Playing Buff State, Rochester, Frostburg State is certainly no more impressive than Dickinson, F & M, Carnegie Mellon and arguably less so.

I think part of it though is that SJF will play teams close just to get games.  Why wouldn't they play Brockport, Rochester and Buff State?  Those are the closes d3 schools to them.  Hobart seems to play or not play schools based on other things.  SJF doesn't care about who they play, as long as they have 10 games.  It now seems like the NCAA approves of that mentality.

Would like to point out that Buff State is joining the E8 and Frostburg joined the E8 this year as well so it's not like there wasn't a reason for playing them..

It's been covered 100x over in the east but the UR game isn't about football at least for Fisher it wasn't...it was about Camp Good Days.  Apparently UR has had enough of getting their heads kicked in though, and yes their pompous asses are "like that" especially when their HC (before Greene) said he'd rather lose his first born than lose to SJF...

Regards to Kings they were coming off 4 straight 7+ win seasons and 3 straight post season appearances when SJF scheduled them...

Brockport kicked the hell out of SJF like 13 years in a row but they still kept Brockport on the schedule, Fisher was Ports cupcake back then.  When they moved to the NJAC they had to cancel the long standing series between state school & a private school...

SJF was always playing the top area schools that would kick the hell out of them.  Regardless of conference and school. Why? Because they wanted 10 games and didn't care who they played, SJF didn't hide behind it's private school status.  In fact IC & SJF are the only two private institutions that played state schools year in and year out...

[Jonny Utah]

I think we can all agree here that St. John's Fishers sucks.

Right?

[Yanks 99]

I think we can all agree here that St. John's Fishers sucks.

Right?

HELL YES!!!

[Frank Rossi]

OK, there are some very off-base comments flying here.  Let me state for now the umpteenth time that Hobart was ranked above Fisher in the final rankings.  I went back and listened to the Selection Chair interview -- she specifically stated that Fisher "lost to two teams that were above them" when they looked at the positioning for Fisher.  It does not follow that somehow Fisher jumped Hobart at any point.  My view continues to be that Hobart is a 5/6, and Fisher is a 6/7.  The best that we can consider for Fisher is that they ended up with equal seedings.

Also, she specifically said that the Hobart eight-game schedule DID NOT play a role in the views of Hobart from the best of her recollection.  Hobart was viewed as a one-loss team -- they did not read into it further.  Remember that some teams actually play less in-region games than Hobart, so it didn't necessitate a special treatment in the end.

Finally, this Dickinson issue completely misses the reasons for the game.  A good amount of the desire to keep that series is the Pennsylvania exposure the team and school want.  Look at Hobart's location on a map, and you'll understand why they like to keep a Pennsylvania school.  Dickinson plays in a very good conference, and navigates the middle of it most of the last five years.  I have no problem with that game, especially from the recruiting and exposure benefits the school receives from retaining it.