East Region Fan Poll

[lewdogg11]

Alright Frank, if all Union fans are as complacent as you in their current state of affairs, then so be it.  I would expect more from the program I route for.  RPI had reached it's pinnacle in the former regime as far as i'm concerned.  Things haven't worked out great so far, and i'll admit that as quickly as anyone.  Was a change needed?  I think so.  Was it handled the right way or did they hire the right people?  Not a chance.  But for me, 6-3 and an ECAC bid gets old after a while. 

I was never really one of those guys that was happy with a participation ribbon.  I set my goals a little higher.  The Union kids i'm sure work their a$$es off and are improving somewhat.  But at the end of the day, what are you left with?  People look at Wins and Losses because it's all that matters at the end of the day.

FYI - I skimmed your post because it was too detailed for my ignorant brain.  And it just seemed full of excuses. 

[lewdogg11]

And to build off of my point in the first place...

If Union loses this week to St. Lawrence, and you come in on Sunday or Monday to say why they lost, and that they showed improvement somewhere, and it's not the St. Lawrence of old, yadda yadda yadda, then i'll print out and mail you one of those participation ribbons and you can glue it on the entrance gate at the Frank Bailey.

[Frank Rossi]

And to build off of my point in the first place...

If Union loses this week to St. Lawrence, and you come in on Sunday or Monday to say why they lost, and that they showed improvement somewhere, and it's not the St. Lawrence of old, yadda yadda yadda, then i'll print out and mail you one of those participation ribbons and you can glue it on the entrance gate at the Frank Bailey.

And if they win, I'll mail you this to eat for dinner next week:

[lewdogg11]

And to build off of my point in the first place...

If Union loses this week to St. Lawrence, and you come in on Sunday or Monday to say why they lost, and that they showed improvement somewhere, and it's not the St. Lawrence of old, yadda yadda yadda, then i'll print out and mail you one of those participation ribbons and you can glue it on the entrance gate at the Frank Bailey.

And if they win, I'll mail you this to eat for dinner next week:

I said they SHOULD WIN!  And win big!!!  I swear you hear and read things just the way you want to hear and read them. 

[pumkinattack]

I don't really know that any D3 coach should be pushed out if their in good standing and the students are graduating and becoming quality citizens, but I've had the same questions about Audino's performance lately.  So in this case, I would side w/Lew on this and am not buying the long winded justification.  The reality is that the program isn't the same as it was 10-15 years ago when I played against them, winning the LL isn't all it's cracked up to be at the moment (see Hobart's seeding last year) and the OOC isn't any great shakes (not bad, per se, but not world beaters and the 28pt loss to Utica stands out as someone who watched them closely last week - good QB and one solid WR, but that's about it - 4 TO's in the 3rd quarter and some ingenuity to run a well exeecuted flea flicker kept that game from being a complete whitewash and it was still a 19pt home loss for them). 

[Frank Rossi]

And to counter-quote discussions concerning Wesley and other teams in the past... turnovers happen by themselves, I guess.  As for disrespect for the LL... I have a #13 ranking that sort of undercuts that assumption. 

[pumkinattack]

That's your ranking, not everyone else's.  It's only your opinion.  I could say well, my belief is x, so therefore any assumption/observation you have is invalid, but it doesn't matter as it's subjective.  It's your argument and I don't care to engage in it, but I agree with Lew's general perception on this one.  It is what it is and you can write 47 more posts, without any other poster opining and I'm pretty comfortable with what I've concluded on this topic until more information comes in from future game performances. 

Separately, there are forced turnovers and there are sloppiness, self induced turnovers.  If you can't understand that not all are the same then I can't help your thought process in any way, shape or form.  What I can tell you, as someone who is a much closer obsersver of Hobart this year and every past year than you, is that they are as talented as anyone in the east perhaps having as much talent in the top 30 guys or so as anyone in the country (not nearly the depth of the top 5 for sure), but they are also sloppy and not always focused and turnover prone.  But way to be condescending with your "counter quote".

[Frank Rossi]

Seeing that I listened to Ted Baker's broadcast Saturday (unless you believe that Ted isn't a good authority), and seeing that I actually don't have Hobart ranked as high as the other ballots... I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Hobart is very good, and their ranking confirms that.  Utica is very good, and their efforts Saturday do nothing to reduce that view.  If you're not inclined to accept my supposed homer POV, then why should I accept yours, exactly?

[Bombers798891]

I don't really know that any D3 coach should be pushed out if their in good standing and the students are graduating and becoming quality citizens, but I've had the same questions about Audino's performance lately.  So in this case, I would side w/Lew on this and am not buying the long winded justification.  The reality is that the program isn't the same as it was 10-15 years ago when I played against them

You know, people say this about Ithaca (myself included), but things are just different in the region compared to when Union and IC were powers (I know you're speaking more recently pumkin, but I think this holds true.) The cost of attendance difference compared to certain schools is even more drastic than it was then. You didn't have a team in Hartwick or Utica. Fisher was emerging from club team status and wasn't consistently good until 2002. Buff State didn't have a varsity team until 1981. Hobart was mediocre at best, horrible at worst in the 80's. Cortland was really only good from maybe 1987-1992. You think to all the kids going to those schools now, who would have been looking at IC/Union in the 80's and early 90's. Where's Mark Robinson go? Boltus? Pitcher? Jeff Baker? You think IC would be the first choice for a great running back from Rochester leaving U of R today like it was for Mike Scott in 1988?

Yes, there are things both schools can do better—though I can only speak to Ithaca there—but to quote 'The Wire' "Game's the same. Just got more fierce." Do Union and IC need to respond? Sure. But I also think people who hark back to the glory days need to realize that the landscape is just different. The Unions and Ithacas of the world don't just get the pick of the litter anymore.

[lewdogg11]

I don't really know that any D3 coach should be pushed out if their in good standing and the students are graduating and becoming quality citizens, but I've had the same questions about Audino's performance lately.  So in this case, I would side w/Lew on this and am not buying the long winded justification.  The reality is that the program isn't the same as it was 10-15 years ago when I played against them

You know, people say this about Ithaca (myself included), but things are just different in the region compared to when Union and IC were powers (I know you're speaking more recently pumkin, but I think this holds true.) The cost of attendance difference compared to certain schools is even more drastic than it was then. You didn't have a team in Hartwick or Utica. Fisher was emerging from club team status and wasn't consistently good until 2002. Buff State didn't have a varsity team until 1981. Hobart was mediocre at best, horrible at worst in the 80's. Cortland was really only good from maybe 1987-1992. You think to all the kids going to those schools now, who would have been looking at IC/Union in the 80's and early 90's. Where's Mark Robinson go? Boltus? Pitcher? Jeff Baker? You think IC would be the first choice for a great running back from Rochester leaving U of R today like it was for Mike Scott in 1988?

Yes, there are things both schools can do better—though I can only speak to Ithaca there—but to quote 'The Wire' "Game's the same. Just got more fierce." Do Union and IC need to respond? Sure. But I also think people who hark back to the glory days need to realize that the landscape is just different. The Unions and Ithacas of the world don't just get the pick of the litter anymore.

Maybe they don't get 'the pick of the litter', but you can't tell me that they(Ithaca and Union) don't both get enough high quality athlete's to put out teams that should fare better than they are currently.  Ithaca has been down but has represented the league pretty well in OOC competition the past few years.  Their issues are more in conference in a conference only getting stronger.

What is it exactly that people are attracted to go to Hobart for?  Is it the girls?  Is it the location?  Is it the Engineering school?  Is it the Orange Helmets?  I don't know what it is, but Hobart doesn't have any unfair advantage yet they continue to get better...Utica is in the same boat.  Why would ANYONE go to Utica?  The brewery?  Maybe it is the orange helmets.  I don't know.  But the product on the field continues to improve. 

Maybe it's just the coaching(or recruiting)?  Hmmmmmmmmm

[Frank Rossi]

What is it exactly that people are attracted to go to Hobart for?

I think to understand the answer to this question, you might want to understand the financial aid schedules, mechanisms and approaches that coaches from Union, RPI and Hobart are forced to deal with, and why one of them ends up ahead of the game right now.  It's, without a doubt, a $$$ issue that Hobart leads right now.  From what I understand, there is an admissions advantage that actually goes to them, too, that sort of involves D1 Lacrosse (and some of the overlap between the sports).

[Upstate]

Maybe it's just the coaching(or recruiting)?  Hmmmmmmmmm

It's no shocker that Utica is getting better when they hired SJF's recruiting coordinator. He was the reason why most of us went there. 

[Yanks 99]

I still think the "downfall", if you can call it that, of the Ithaca's, Union's, RPI's..etc...has a lot to do with the financial costs of the institution and the downward spiral of the economy over the past 4-5 years.

I copied this from a post last I made last year, so in all reality, the numbers are probably higher...but here was the cost last year of tuition/room and board for some of the schools that appear to be on the downward trend here in NYS:

Ithaca: $48,132
RPI: $53,575
Union: $54,273

Compare that with schools that have been very successful lately (Fisher), or appear to be getting better with at least a lot of enthusiasm:

Fisher: $36,770
Utica: $42,166

Hobart is the one anomaly (at $53,767 per year) that I am amazed has continued to put a very solid product on the field year in and year out.  But seriously...I have a 3 year old daughter and a two week old son now...and these numbers scare the hell out of me.  And if my son or daughter (if they want to play at the next level many years from now) are looking at Fisher and Ithaca (as an example...because come on...they are both going to Hartwick), there better be a tremendous interest in Ithaca's communication school or PT school...otherwise, there is no way I could tell him that adding an additional burden of $48,000 over four years (through loans, grants, financial aid, etc.) to go to Ithaca over Fisher is a smart idea.  That is a sense that I get when I talk to a lot of parents that are looking to send their kids to school in NY these days as well.

Plus...like Bombers alluded to...there are simply more schools that have football programs.

[AUKaz00]

You think IC would be the first choice for a great running back from Rochester leaving U of R today like it was for Mike Scott in 1988?

I've got a few Mike Scott 1988 Topps cards if you want one.  Those Astros uniforms take me back...

[Bombers798891]

Maybe they don't get 'the pick of the litter', but you can't tell me that they(Ithaca and Union) don't both get enough high quality athlete's to put out teams that should fare better than they are currently.  Ithaca has been down but has represented the league pretty well in OOC competition the past few years.  Their issues are more in conference in a conference only getting stronger.

What is it exactly that people are attracted to go to Hobart for? Is it the girls? Is it the location?  Is it the Engineering school?  Is it the Orange Helmets?  I don't know what it is, but Hobart doesn't have any unfair advantage yet they continue to get better...Utica is in the same boat.  Why would ANYONE go to Utica?  The brewery?  Maybe it is the orange helmets.  I don't know.  But the product on the field continues to improve. 

Maybe it's just the coaching(or recruiting)?  Hmmmmmmmmm

Why couldn't things like degree programs, difficulty of admission, cost of attendance all matter? Why couldn't it be based on girls, wanting to stay closer to home, color of the uniforms? 17-year old kids aren't always rational actors. Just because we're talking about football players doesn't mean that the fundamental question is "What football team do I want to play for?" and not "What do I want to do with the next four years of my life?"

As far as coaches, remember, they work within a system. From speaking with people I know at IC, I don't think Mike Welch received the administrative support that Jim Butterfield did, because I don't think the administration was as focused on athletics (and football) compared to when Jim was there. From an institutional standpoint, that's not necessarily a bad thing, and maybe it's a good thing. After all, we're institutions of higher learning that happen to have a football team. But I do think the focus is different, and that's affected the football team too. Is it possible that Union just doesn't prioritize football success the way they did back in the day?

And, let's remember something: New programs don't just mean the player pool is thinner. It means the coaches pool is too. A guy like Blaise probably stays at Ithaca if this is the 1980's.

Also, consider something about the self-cannibalization in the NY area. Other than maybe the 2006 Fisher team, has any NY team ever been a serious title contender since IC? Sure, Hobart's been good, but they're still topping out at 9 wins a season. How many NCAA playoff wins do they have? Utica's "improvement" has resulted in a whole bunch of 5-5 to this point. Color me unimpressed.

It's not like Hobart or Utica have risen to the level of a Union or an IC back in the day. Only Fisher has even come close. The bar for everyone in this area has been lowered across the board. Yes, Ithaca and Union are below where they could be, but the reality is that this sea change affects peaks and valleys. Whereas 12-1 and a national title turns into 10-3 and a trip to the NCAA quarters, 7-3 turns into 5-5. Both teams are in a frustrating down cycle now, yes. But regardless of where on the wheel, that wheel itself is lower.