East Region Fan Poll

[Bombers798891]

there better be a tremendous interest in Ithaca's communication school or PT school

Here's something I'd love to know: What are these players majoring in? It's not just the cost of attendance. It's the cost of attendance relative to player's chosen program's quality. IC's $50,000 price tag is shocking next to Cortland's what, $8,000? But at least in the Comm/PT/Music schools, you could say the difference is justified because IC's programs are much, much better. But other programs, not so much. If a kid is majoring in secondary ed, or ceramics, or whatever is it that Fisher's really good at (Not a dig, I just don't know) you don't necessarily get the dropoff in quality that you do in price.

[pg04]

So many large posts... So many posts to skip over...

[lewdogg11]

Other than maybe the 2006 Fisher team, has any NY team ever been a serious title contender since IC?

RPI lost to the eventual National Champ in the final 4 of 2003.

[dlippiel]

Maybe they don't get 'the pick of the litter', but you can't tell me that they(Ithaca and Union) don't both get enough high quality athlete's to put out teams that should fare better than they are currently.  Ithaca has been down but has represented the league pretty well in OOC competition the past few years.  Their issues are more in conference in a conference only getting stronger.

What is it exactly that people are attracted to go to Hobart for? Is it the girls? Is it the location?  Is it the Engineering school?  Is it the Orange Helmets?  I don't know what it is, but Hobart doesn't have any unfair advantage yet they continue to get better...Utica is in the same boat.  Why would ANYONE go to Utica?  The brewery?  Maybe it is the orange helmets.  I don't know.  But the product on the field continues to improve. 

Maybe it's just the coaching(or recruiting)?  Hmmmmmmmmm

Why couldn't things like degree programs, difficulty of admission, cost of attendance all matter? Why couldn't it be based on girls, wanting to stay closer to home, color of the uniforms? 17-year old kids aren't always rational actors. Just because we're talking about football players doesn't mean that the fundamental question is "What football team do I want to play for?" and not "What do I want to do with the next four years of my life?"

As far as coaches, remember, they work within a system. From speaking with people I know at IC, I don't think Mike Welch received the administrative support that Jim Butterfield did, because I don't think the administration was as focused on athletics (and football) compared to when Jim was there. From an institutional standpoint, that's not necessarily a bad thing, and maybe it's a good thing. After all, we're institutions of higher learning that happen to have a football team. But I do think the focus is different, and that's affected the football team too. Is it possible that Union just doesn't prioritize football success the way they did back in the day?
And, let's remember something: New programs don't just mean the player pool is thinner. It means the coaches pool is too. A guy like Blaise probably stays at Ithaca if this is the 1980's.

Also, consider something about the self-cannibalization in the NY area. Other than maybe the 2006 Fisher team, has any NY team ever been a serious title contender since IC? Sure, Hobart's been good, but they're still topping out at 9 wins a season. How many NCAA playoff wins do they have? Utica's "improvement" has resulted in a whole bunch of 5-5 to this point. Color me unimpressed.

It's not like Hobart or Utica have risen to the level of a Union or an IC back in the day. Only Fisher has even come close. The bar for everyone in this area has been lowered across the board. Yes, Ithaca and Union are below where they could be, but the reality is that this sea change affects peaks and valleys. Whereas 12-1 and a national title turns into 10-3 and a trip to the NCAA quarters, 7-3 turns into 5-5. Both teams are in a frustrating down cycle now, yes. But regardless of where on the wheel, that wheel itself is lower.

Yes

dlip posted about this recently and to dlip, this is not an excuse, it is a reason. Since Union went D1 in Hockey the teeter tooter (****ing spelling???) of Union's athletic focus and prioritization began to shift ever so slowly from football to hockey. From AD's, to head coaches, to academic admission standards, to admission exceptions (not all of it but part of it), we fans and those close to the program (at least in dlip's opinion) have noticed football slide slowly away into the abyss of women's sports and most importantly, Ice Hockey. In ice hockey Union competes at the division 1 level and DOES NOT award academic scholarships. To even have a shot at competing, a school like Union that is both expensive and academically elite must sacrifice something; see football. dlip is not saying this is the lone reason for Union's fall from it's glory days. However, to dlip, this is a larger piece of the puzzle and one that cannot be ignored.

Lew is right in regards to the frustration amoung the fan base of the team and fans of the LL league regarding Union's fall from grace. **** the three headed monster has really turned into a one headed monster with tenticles. Yet Frank, with the inside view he has touches upon many truths and/or reasons as to why this has happened. As fans we are now in somewhat of a tight spot. Do we just ****ing hammer the coaches, complain and become negative? Which in effect would harm the current players that are there now busting their asses? dlip doesn't think so.

He'll post more...wife is giving him the eye and it's time for dinner...

[dlippiel]

Just made the pizza and did the dishes so dlip got himself a window here.

...do we constantly call for change and become angry because we are not where we "were" or where we think we should be? dlip doesn't think so because honestly if he did he wouldn't enjoy the games and everything surrounding them. All dlip knows is that things have changed. Not only since 89 but since 2005 and so forth. Union and RPI for that matters are programs that hold academics sky high and also continue to support division 1 sports. On top of this Frank really is correct when looking deep into the specifics of Union's current situation and situations in the previous however many years. We can't look at the Union's, Ithaca's, RPI's etc the way we look at the D1 programs like the Miami Hurricanes. Our programs are different and honestly, better in terms of well roundedness and part of what makes D3 so ****ing great.

We should always question and expect more from the programs we love, yet again if we fail to look at the specific dynamic realities of these programs and why they are the way they are we are fooling ourselves. Lew is right to make a statement about the possible seriousness of Union not defeating SLU this weekend. Yet Frank is right on when breaking down the big picture and the reality of it all. What is the answer? To dlip it is somewhere in the middle. That is where dlip likes to sit.

[Bombers798891]

Other than maybe the 2006 Fisher team, has any NY team ever been a serious title contender since IC?

RPI lost to the eventual National Champ in the final 4 of 2003.

How close was that game? I remember IC nearly winning the RPI game, but couldn't remember if they would have had a shot the next week

[Upstate]

Other than maybe the 2006 Fisher team, has any NY team ever been a serious title contender since IC?

RPI lost to the eventual National Champ in the final 4 of 2003.

How close was that game? I remember IC nearly winning the RPI game, but couldn't remember if they would have had a shot the next week

It was 38-10, it was pretty close up until the 13 minute mark of the 4th when SJU went up 24-10 and then in a 6 minute stretch SJU scored 14 more points on a pick 6 and a 1 yd TD run.

[pg04]

I think that RPI team was relatively even with Fisher in terms of their "strength" or "ability to win it all"

When I compiled "The top 10 Eastern Teams in the D3football.com era" 5 years ago, RPI 2003 finished #4 and Fisher 2006 finished #3 (Rowan's teams were #1 and #2, but they aren't NY as discussed here). I don't think any team since then has come close, so these are really the 2 teams that come to closes to what Bombers was looking for.

(link to the post describing 2003 RPI: http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5303.msg727504#msg727504 )

[lewdogg11]

I think that RPI team was relatively even with Fisher in terms of their "strength" or "ability to win it all"

When I compiled "The top 10 Eastern Teams in the D3football.com era" 5 years ago, RPI 2003 finished #4 and Fisher 2006 finished #3 (Rowan's teams were #1 and #2, but they aren't NY as discussed here). I don't think any team since then has come close, so these are really the 2 teams that come to closes to what Bombers was looking for.

(link to the post describing 2003 RPI: http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5303.msg727504#msg727504 )

Wow, reading that thread was a trip. Especially the part about Gro saying if he EVER was going to quit posting, he would have done it already. Oh how a job change makes a guy disappear. Good stuff. Those were the glory days...

[Garnet]

I stopped reading Frank's post after the second paragraph and then just skimmed the third one.  After that, I moved to the next post.

Al Davis-"just win baby!"

[Frank Rossi]

I stopped reading Frank's post after the second paragraph and then just skimmed the third one.  After that, I moved to the next post.

Al Davis-"just win baby!"

Feel free to forward those comments to Union's Admissions and Financial Aid Departments.

[lewdogg11]

I stopped reading Frank's post after the second paragraph and then just skimmed the third one.  After that, I moved to the next post.

Al Davis-"just win baby!"

Feel free to forward those comments to Union's Admissions and Financial Aid Departments.

[Yanks 99]

I stopped reading Frank's post after the second paragraph and then just skimmed the third one.  After that, I moved to the next post.

Al Davis-"just win baby!"

Feel free to forward those comments to Union's Admissions and Financial Aid Departments.

Hahahaha...+k...

[Frank Rossi]

I stopped reading Frank's post after the second paragraph and then just skimmed the third one.  After that, I moved to the next post.

Al Davis-"just win baby!"

Feel free to forward those comments to Union's Admissions and Financial Aid Departments.

And this is the guy who faulted my sharting in his underwear allusions during his Union losing excitement...

[ExTartanPlayer]

What is it exactly that people are attracted to go to Hobart for? Is it the girls? Is it the location?  Is it the Engineering school?  Is it the Orange Helmets?  I don't know what it is, but Hobart doesn't have any unfair advantage yet they continue to get better...Utica is in the same boat.  Why would ANYONE go to Utica?  The brewery?  Maybe it is the orange helmets.  I don't know.  But the product on the field continues to improve. 

Why couldn't things like degree programs, difficulty of admission, cost of attendance all matter? Why couldn't it be based on girls, wanting to stay closer to home, color of the uniforms? 17-year old kids aren't always rational actors. Just because we're talking about football players doesn't mean that the fundamental question is "What football team do I want to play for?" and not "What do I want to do with the next four years of my life?"

FWIW - just to affirm Bombers' point that 17 year olds are not always rational factors and that odd circumstances can influence one's college decision - I once hosted a recruit at CMU who asked me at the end of the night "Man, where da hoes at?"  In a related story, he did not choose to attend Carnegie Mellon.

I also recall visiting Rochester as a recruit and having a less-than-enjoyable visit because my hosts went to a kegger and left me alone for the night.  For some kids that would have worked, for me it didn't.  High school seniors are a funny bunch - what works for some of us won't work for others, and football is far from the only factor for a player choosing a Division III school.