East Region Fan Poll

[fisheralum91]

Have any of you watched Fisher this year?

Kicking is abysmal and whats more the coaches know it and plan AROUND it.
A shame really that this position is so suspect.

[Bombers798891]

Coaches at all levels don't coach it because they don't know how...we are stuck with really bad kicking at all levels but the pros

But this is my point. We have (generally) bad kicking, because most coaches don't treat it with importance. So what can we possibly hope to glean from it on a week to week level?

In Week 3 of 2015, Cortland hits a 38 yard FG. Later that day, they miss from 26. The next week, they hit from 37. The week after that, they're short from 33. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Maybe you're St. John Fisher the day Max Rottenecker hits from 50 and 37. Or maybe you're Cortland the day he misses from 41 and 22.

[AUKaz00]

Week 4 Fan Poll 

Team	Record	Points	Last Rating	Next Week
1   Brockport State ( 4 )	4-0	47	1	at Cortland
2   Delaware Valley ( 1 )	4-0	44	3	at FDU-Florham
3   Frostburg State	4-0	42	2	Open Date
4   Wesley	2-1	33	4	vs. Southern Virginia
5   Alfred	3-0	30	5	vs. #10 Buffalo State
6   Albright	4-0	20	6	at King's
7   Hobart	3-1	19	7	at Ithaca
8   Framingham State	4-0	18	9	Open Date
9   Springfield	4-0	10	8	vs. Norwich
10  Buffalo State	3-0	6	NR	at #5 Alfred

Dropping Out:
RPI


Also Receiving votes:               
Christopher Newport 5
Stevenson 1
                     
            
Voting Distribution:            

Brockport State (1,4,1,1,1)
Delaware Valley (3,1,2,2,3)
Frostburg State (2,2,3,4,2)
Wesley (7,3,5,3,4)
Alfred (4,5,4,7,5)
Albright (5,7,8,8,7)
Hobart (6,8,6,5,NR)
Framingham State (10,6,9,6,6)
Springfield (8,NR,7,NR,8)
Buffalo State (9,10,10,NR,9)
Christopher Newport (NR,9,NR,9,10)
Stevenson (NR,NR,NR,10,NR)


Key Matchups:
#10 Buffalo State at #5 Alfred

[jknezek]

Coaches at all levels don't coach it because they don't know how...we are stuck with really bad kicking at all levels but the pros

But this is my point. We have (generally) bad kicking, because most coaches don't treat it with importance. So what can we possibly hope to glean from it on a week to week level?

In Week 3 of 2015, Cortland hits a 38 yard FG. Later that day, they miss from 26. The next week, they hit from 37. The week after that, they're short from 33. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Maybe you're St. John Fisher the day Max Rottenecker hits from 50 and 37. Or maybe you're Cortland the day he misses from 41 and 22.

And how is that different from any other position on the field? Shane Sweeney is a pretty darn good QB in the ER, but he went 23-44 with 3 picks one week and 22-31, 0 picks the next. Sometimes it's the defense, sometimes it's a good day, sometimes its not for QBs. For kickers it's the same. They just don't get 30-40 tries per game to average it out. Imagine how badly we'd skew QB analysis if we only looked at their first 6 throws per game. 4 short, equating to XPs, 1 middle length, 1 long to equate to FGs. I bet the QB stats would be every bit as erratic. Doesn't mean we wouldn't know which team was better though.

For kicks, sometimes it's the snap, sometimes it's the hold, sometimes it's the kicker, and sometimes it's the defense. But it's part of football and it's pretty silly to point to that position, that aspect of the game, and say it's the reason we can't figure out which teams are good or not from results.

It's just another position on the field. It just happens to be high profile when it goes wrong because we expect XPs and FGs to go through. Only good kickers are consistent. A team with a good kicker has an advantage over a team without one. Not the only reason why teams win or lose, but it helps and it factors into which teams are good and bad.

[Bartman]

One of the reasons that I don't do polls like this is that I struggle with the idea of crediting/dinging teams for minor things that result in wins and losses. "Just win" is fine when you're talking about making the playoffs, but to me a poll is about how good/strong a team is, and that's about more than W/L. I'm not saying I wouldn't draw conclusions from the game, but I don't know if I'd derive them from the results.

The big reason for this is that I simply don't trust D3 kicking. It's just a crapshoot for so many teams. And drawing conclusions from the results of kicking follies is something I don't do. Look at Buff State/Morrisville: Morrisville misses two XPs, so it's 33-28 instead of 35-28. As a result, when Buff State goes up 41-40, they go for two and fail. This opens the door for Morrisville to go for two at 46-41, which they make. Which looms large when Buff State misses the XP down 48-47.

Suppose for a second the game ended there. Morrisville State gets the win because the Rube Goldberg set of events they kicked off (pun intended) by missing two extra points resulted in their 7 touchdowns resulting in 48 points instead of 47. I don't think that makes them any better or stronger than the Bengals.

I mean, I just watched a replay crew overturn a sack and call a 12-men on the field penalty based on some guy being in the air as he crossed over the sidelines. I've come to the conclusion that some things that happen really aren't about how good your are.

I think kicking is too important to place in this context. A good kicker makes a team better. CMS beat W&L last year on the strength of several 45+ yard field goals. JHU beat W&L because their kicker made a long field goal and W&L missed an XP that led to overtime. Kicking is part of the game. You can't just ignore the kicking game as not being relevant to whether a team is better than another.

I actually think kicker is one of the most important positions on the field. Coaches at all levels don't coach it because they don't know how. So few of them actually were kickers. Rather than hiring that extra assistant for linebackers, which is a position anyone who played defense can coach, they should hire someone to coach the punter and kicker. It would more than pay off. But since kickers are always considered the least football position on the field, despite usually being the position that scores the most points, we are stuck with really bad kicking at all levels but the pros, where the field has been winnowed down to the very, very best.

I have to agree with both Bombers point and JK that especially in D3 ....kicking can be a great asset or liability...the variance in performance can be game changing with respect to field position and points and MUST be considered by a good coach. I know there has been quite a bit of analysis on these boards with respect to 1 point vs 2 point conversions as to probability due to D3 kicking inconsistency. As far as  Hobart this year , we have a punter from Texas that knows how to punt in different wind conditions that will be a  tremendous asset in October/November(All East last year). We now have a First Year place-kicker that is making the PATs(18-19) and has made a 40 yard FG(3-3 total)....PK is now an advantage, where last year it was inconsistent and had to be addressed for game decisions. Going into important close games, I think this can be a  very important team asset ...especially in the playoffs if you make it that far. Rio Schmidt, our punter was a RB in HS and was able to convert on a fake punt against Mount Union in last year's playoffs....good coaches take kicking seriously....it is not more important than your collective Lines or your skill positions....but it I can be more important than your 4th or 5th OLineman  when you need it....so it is just another factor in analyzing teams that , as Bombers  said, is extremely variable at this level...but I have no problem playing the ranking game despite this factor...just because it is fun

[Bartman]

Week 4 Fan Poll 

Team	Record	Points	Last Rating	Next Week
1   Brockport State ( 4 )	4-0	47	1	at Cortland
2   Delaware Valley ( 1 )	4-0	44	3	at FDU-Florham
3   Frostburg State	4-0	42	2	Open Date
4   Wesley	2-1	33	4	vs. Southern Virginia
5   Alfred	3-0	30	5	vs. #10 Buffalo State
6   Albright	4-0	20	6	at King's
7   Hobart	3-1	19	7	at Ithaca
8   Framingham State	4-0	18	9	Open Date
9   Springfield	4-0	10	8	vs. Norwich
10  Buffalo State	3-0	6	NR	at #5 Alfred

Dropping Out:
RPI


Also Receiving votes:               
Christopher Newport 5
Stevenson 1
                     
            
Voting Distribution:            

Brockport State (1,4,1,1,1)
Delaware Valley (3,1,2,2,3)
Frostburg State (2,2,3,4,2)
Wesley (7,3,5,3,4)
Alfred (4,5,4,7,5)
Albright (5,7,8,8,7)
Hobart (6,8,6,5,NR)
Framingham State (10,6,9,6,6)
Springfield (8,NR,7,NR,8)
Buffalo State (9,10,10,NR,9)
Christopher Newport (NR,9,NR,9,10)
Stevenson (NR,NR,NR,10,NR)


Key Matchups:
#10 Buffalo State at #5 Alfred

Pretty consistent results. It makes sense to me as top 3 are one group, Alfred and Wesley have the next grouping; Albright,Hobart and Framingham have a grouping with Buff State and Springfield rounding it out. Even if you eliminate the high and low for bias(not that the high and low are wrong ) it only changes  to 6. Hobart, 7. Framingham and 8. Albright. Still 8 undefeated teams with big dreams and 2 experienced 1 loss teams ready to pounce.

[Bombers798891]

And how is that different from any other position on the field?

You illustrated perfectly how it's different:

Coaches at all levels don't coach it because they don't know how

If they're not coaching their own kickers, they're probably not devoting a lot of time to coaching how to stop other teams' kickers either. So if WPI is going up against Hobart, and Hobart's kicker misses a kick from a 26 yards, my first thought is going to be, "Wow, WPI caught a break there", not, "Nice job by the WPI coaching staff and players to come up with and execute a strategy to stop Hobart's kicker."

But since Hobart spends a lot of time coaching Shane Sweeney and opposing coaches devote a lot of time to stopping him, when I see that he's thrown 3 INTs and 0 TDs, my first thought is going to be "Brockport is doing something to make that happen"

As such, a game won by forcing Shane Sweeney into a bad day tells me more about that team than a game won by watching a guy miss a 28-yard field goal

[jknezek]

Shrug. Doesn't really make any sense to me, especially since the kicker typically scores more points than anyone on the field, making it a position to judge by, not discount, but if you are happy with your logic that's what counts.

[ITH radio]

The best East Region games this wkd, IMO, are:

IC vs HOB
Buff St vs ALF
MIT vs USMMA
SLU vs WNE
ROW vs CNU

The above isn't in any particular order, but the GOTW, if I had to pick one, is Bengals-Saxons. Bombers-Bart is probably second given the history there.

[Bombers798891]

Shrug. Doesn't really make any sense to me, especially since the kicker typically scores more points than anyone on the field, making it a position to judge by, not discount, but if you are happy with your logic that's what counts.

Because we're looking at two different things.

You're looking at what a guy making a 45-yard field goal says about the offense. You're 100% right that a good kicker is a weapon for a team, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm looking at what a missed kick tells us about the team that was on defense.

If there's nothing the defensive team did to cause that missed kick—which often times there isn't—why would my opinion of the defensive team change based on the result?

[dlippiel]

The best East Region games this wkd, IMO, are:

IC vs HOB
Buff St vs ALF
MIT vs USMMA
SLU vs WNE
ROW vs CNU

The above isn't in any particular order, but the GOTW, if I had to pick one, is Bengals-Saxons. Bombers-Bart is probably second given the history there.

Dlip does not expect the Saints to win this game. As a matter of fact he feels they may get ****ing man handeled by a pretty decent WNE team. With that said the Saints have a real opportunity here to get a W that could propel them back into a season with some promise. The Saints need this bad and interestingly enough so does WNE. A loss to SLU, combined with their loss to Springfield and RPI would certainly let some more air out of the impressive bubble they have worked hard to build in the last few years. They won a nice battle of NE powers last week and dismantling a down SLU team will show that even in a year that doesn't paralell the past few the Golden Bears are a program here to stay. Dlip can't help it...he just really likes the Golden Bears.

[wesleydad]

Week 4 Fan Poll 

Team	Record	Points	Last Rating	Next Week
1   Brockport State ( 4 )	4-0	47	1	at Cortland
2   Delaware Valley ( 1 )	4-0	44	3	at FDU-Florham
3   Frostburg State	4-0	42	2	Open Date
4   Wesley	2-1	33	4	vs. Southern Virginia
5   Alfred	3-0	30	5	vs. #10 Buffalo State
6   Albright	4-0	20	6	at King's
7   Hobart	3-1	19	7	at Ithaca
8   Framingham State	4-0	18	9	Open Date
9   Springfield	4-0	10	8	vs. Norwich
10  Buffalo State	3-0	6	NR	at #5 Alfred

Dropping Out:
RPI


Also Receiving votes:               
Christopher Newport 5
Stevenson 1
                     
            
Voting Distribution:            

Brockport State (1,4,1,1,1)
Delaware Valley (3,1,2,2,3)
Frostburg State (2,2,3,4,2)
Wesley (7,3,5,3,4)
Alfred (4,5,4,7,5)
Albright (5,7,8,8,7)
Hobart (6,8,6,5,NR)
Framingham State (10,6,9,6,6)
Springfield (8,NR,7,NR,8)
Buffalo State (9,10,10,NR,9)
Christopher Newport (NR,9,NR,9,10)
Stevenson (NR,NR,NR,10,NR)


Key Matchups:
#10 Buffalo State at #5 Alfred

It looks good to me.  I am still holding out on putting Hobart in the top 10.  Waiting for them to play a good game and this week may be a tell tale for me.  Common opponents to compare to with Ithaca and some of the teams in the top 10.  Not sure how Stevenson is getting any votes, they have been trounced twice now.  Top 10 teams do not get trounced by 2 teams.  They are not that good.  Interesting that the RV group has dwindled to 2 teams.

[jknezek]

Shrug. Doesn't really make any sense to me, especially since the kicker typically scores more points than anyone on the field, making it a position to judge by, not discount, but if you are happy with your logic that's what counts.

Because we're looking at two different things.

You're looking at what a guy making a 45-yard field goal says about the offense. You're 100% right that a good kicker is a weapon for a team, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm looking at what a missed kick tells us about the team that was on defense.

If there's nothing the defensive team did to cause that missed kick—which often times there isn't—why would my opinion of the defensive team change based on the result?

And you think the defensive team didn't do anything to stop them at the 28 yard line versus the 15 yard line? I still don't see your point. You are judging teams. Part of that is judging how good a team is in all phases, and part of that is looking at results. If a team wins because they have a good kicker, they are a better team than one with a bad kicker all other things being mostly equal. If a team loses because a kicker is consistently inconsistent (and yes, that was fun to write), then they aren't as good as a team with a consistently good kicker, all other things being equal.

I'll just say this, JHU's kicking game was better than W&L's kicking game, in all facets including recovering a well executed surprise onside kick, all of their XPs, and a long field goal. That was against a missed XP and some shorter kickoffs. That absolutely was the difference between those teams in that game. JHU is undefeated and ranked 14th or so, W&L has one loss, in OT, to that 14th ranked team, and is receiving no votes.

The kicking game does, and should, matter. Maybe not that much, but claiming some strange "D3 kickers are so inconsistent it makes judging outcomes too hard to vote" reason not to participate... well, I don't get it. But again, different ways of thinking make the world go round.

[Bartman]

Week 4 Fan Poll 

Team	Record	Points	Last Rating	Next Week
1   Brockport State ( 4 )	4-0	47	1	at Cortland
2   Delaware Valley ( 1 )	4-0	44	3	at FDU-Florham
3   Frostburg State	4-0	42	2	Open Date
4   Wesley	2-1	33	4	vs. Southern Virginia
5   Alfred	3-0	30	5	vs. #10 Buffalo State
6   Albright	4-0	20	6	at King's
7   Hobart	3-1	19	7	at Ithaca
8   Framingham State	4-0	18	9	Open Date
9   Springfield	4-0	10	8	vs. Norwich
10  Buffalo State	3-0	6	NR	at #5 Alfred

Dropping Out:
RPI


Also Receiving votes:               
Christopher Newport 5
Stevenson 1
                     
            
Voting Distribution:            

Brockport State (1,4,1,1,1)
Delaware Valley (3,1,2,2,3)
Frostburg State (2,2,3,4,2)
Wesley (7,3,5,3,4)
Alfred (4,5,4,7,5)
Albright (5,7,8,8,7)
Hobart (6,8,6,5,NR)
Framingham State (10,6,9,6,6)
Springfield (8,NR,7,NR,8)
Buffalo State (9,10,10,NR,9)
Christopher Newport (NR,9,NR,9,10)
Stevenson (NR,NR,NR,10,NR)


Key Matchups:
#10 Buffalo State at #5 Alfred

It looks good to me.  I am still holding out on putting Hobart in the top 10.  Waiting for them to play a good game and this week may be a tell tale for me.  Common opponents to compare to with Ithaca and some of the teams in the top 10.  Not sure how Stevenson is getting any votes, they have been trounced twice now.  Top 10 teams do not get trounced by 2 teams.  They are not that good.  Interesting that the RV group has dwindled to 2 teams.

Wesleydad,
     Based on your logic, how do you make the case for Wesley to be in the top 10, if Hobart is not in the top 10? The two teams that Wesley have beaten are quite  weak(TCNJ and William Patterson record is 0-8). Hobart's wins are against teams that put up a challenge to D3 football opponents and actually won 3 games ( Shenandoah and Endicott). I have always respected  your judgement/opinion, but based on this logic both teams should be out of the top ten. You are probably dinging Hobart for the abysmal first half against Brockport, which I understand, however Hobart came back in the second half and slugged it out and was tied 20-20 at the end of the third quarter against a team I think will cause severe headaches for some top D3 teams by the end of the year. With all due respect, Bartman

[UfanBill]

I'm a NYS guy...LL and E8 with an eye towards New England. Those are the teams my rooting interest, Union, plays. Every week I check out The East Region  Fan Poll and the accompanying comments to get a perspective on what the boys in the NJAC and MAC think. Usually I see a bias towards those leagues which is OK, you should support your own, however I'm not OK with making projections of future victories and giving them much value towards this week's standings. When head to head league games come, someone has to lose. Does a close loss by let's say Albright to Del. Vly. mean Albright should stay in the poll because they're ALMOST as good as that other top 10 team? Wesley is top 10 because everyone knows how good they are right?... even if they lose, like they did to Del Vly? What about teams that run the table in New England, like WNE did last year and Springfield and Framingham St. are likely to do this year? Sure if a team runs the table in the tough E8 they're top 10 but what about the other guy who may finish 9-1? I'm not on board with voting a team higher solely because they play in what you perceive is a stronger league. I think in the end teams that win em' all should be ranked ahead of teams that don't, regardless of what league they play in.