East Region Fan Poll

[UfanBill]

Thanks guys that...my post did exactly what it was designed to do. It put Union into the sphere of consciousness of all of you. The Dutchmen have to step it up even further to beat Hobart this Saturday. I'm certainly in agreement with that. If they get the victory over the Statesmen, they will have earned a spot in the poll and you guys will all know it. 

[ccd494]

Thanks guys that...my post did exactly what it was designed to do. It put Union into the sphere of consciousness of all of you. The Dutchmen have to step it up even further to beat Hobart this Saturday. I'm certainly in agreement with that. If they get the victory over the Statesmen, they will have earned a spot in the poll and you guys will all know it. 

Well, then whither Husson?

Interestingly, Husson was getting someone's vote until this week, when Husson only beat Castleton State by 49.  They are now not getting any.

I don't know if Husson is one of the ten best in the East, but it's weird to get a "put Union in the top 10!" groundswell without discussing Husson's viability.

[UfanBill]

Thanks guys that...my post did exactly what it was designed to do. It put Union into the sphere of consciousness of all of you. The Dutchmen have to step it up even further to beat Hobart this Saturday. I'm certainly in agreement with that. If they get the victory over the Statesmen, they will have earned a spot in the poll and you guys will all know it. 

Well, then whither Husson?

Interestingly, Husson was getting someone's vote until this week, when Husson only beat Castleton State by 49.  They are now not getting any.

I don't know if Husson is one of the ten best in the East, but it's weird to get a "put Union in the top 10!" groundswell without discussing Husson's viability.

You are quite right ccd494. I agree that Husson should still have gotten consideration. Especially over Plymouth St. I still think the ERFP voters weighed their victory over Framingham too heavily. It was in OT and Framingham thoroughly dominated, look at the box score. You and "them spicy boys" are both better than the MASCAC. Don't worry though, you're going to the tourney. By the way, seems for now I am the sole source of Union "groundswell".

[Bengalsrule]

I think there's a middle ground with these NE schools.

I think, often, their supporters pin a little too much on the "Look how close they played [NY team X]" Framingham, for example, got a lot more mileage out of almost beating Ithaca and Cortland than I think most teams get when they're perceived to be punching up a weight class. 

But I think NY fans often dismiss them out of hand, and don't give them enough credit when they do hang tough. When Fisher was getting ready to play West Conn in the 2014 ECACs, we got this gem:

West Conn looks to have a good pass rush with their DL. Will be interesting to see if they can get after Fisher's QB Speaking of...

If Fenti plays, Fisher by 27...
If Fenti and Nigolian play, Fisher by 35...
If Catan gets the start, Fisher by 17...
If Catan starts and Nigolian plays, Fisher by 24...

This is the sort of dismissive attitude that, justifiably, angers NE fans. That these NY teams can just name the score.

In truth, I'd like to see a little more of the following:

1. NE teams winning more of these games
2. NY fans being a little less smug about the whole thing

Overall, I still believe that the NY schools are, for the most part, better. But the gap has absolutely closed.

FWIW.  You will never see Buff State being that smug  ( or smug period) towards NE teams ( or any other teams period)!  Too much respect for the D3 teams/ youngsters that put it all on the line week and week out.  Plus at 1300 Elmwood, we believe that karma can be a b***h!

[dlippiel]

Thanks guys that...my post did exactly what it was designed to do. It put Union into the sphere of consciousness of all of you. The Dutchmen have to step it up even further to beat Hobart this Saturday. I'm certainly in agreement with that. If they get the victory over the Statesmen, they will have earned a spot in the poll and you guys will all know it. 

Well, then whither Husson?

Interestingly, Husson was getting someone's vote until this week, when Husson only beat Castleton State by 49.  They are now not getting any.

I don't know if Husson is one of the ten best in the East, but it's weird to get a "put Union in the top 10!" groundswell without discussing Husson's viability.

A valid point for sure ccd. However, their loss to WNE didn't help their cause. If they won that game they would be in to top ten for sure. To dlip a win over Hobart for Union will outweigh a week #1 Dutchmen loss to Husson. dlip really likes Husson and is hoping they run the table and make the NCAA's. Great to see that program grow.

[Upstate]

I think there's a middle ground with these NE schools.

I think, often, their supporters pin a little too much on the "Look how close they played [NY team X]" Framingham, for example, got a lot more mileage out of almost beating Ithaca and Cortland than I think most teams get when they're perceived to be punching up a weight class. 

But I think NY fans often dismiss them out of hand, and don't give them enough credit when they do hang tough. When Fisher was getting ready to play West Conn in the 2014 ECACs, we got this gem:

West Conn looks to have a good pass rush with their DL. Will be interesting to see if they can get after Fisher's QB Speaking of...

If Fenti plays, Fisher by 27...
If Fenti and Nigolian play, Fisher by 35...
If Catan gets the start, Fisher by 17...
If Catan starts and Nigolian plays, Fisher by 24...

This is the sort of dismissive attitude that, justifiably, angers NE fans. That these NY teams can just name the score.

In truth, I'd like to see a little more of the following:

1. NE teams winning more of these games
2. NY fans being a little less smug about the whole thing

Overall, I still believe that the NY schools are, for the most part, better. But the gap has absolutely closed.

To be fair...

Catan played while Nigolian was limited and only had two targets early during the game and I believe left due to aggravating an injury...

They won by 14...

[Bombers798891]

To be fair...Catan played while Nigolian was limited and only had two targets early during the game and I believe left due to aggravating an injury...They won by 14...

Fair. But this was far from the only comment made:

SJF/Western Ct is a crappy matchup.  Let's hope Fisher doesn't sulk about it and at least puts up 50 in the first half and then let's their young kids play.

Fisher is going to beat West Conn by 50.

Was thinking this but didn't want to say it...

Fusco goes for 250 if the coaches let him...

Fisher either wins by 40 or 7.

The one question that I will pose (while agreeing that one more game is great for the seniors) is what is the value of a monkey stomp other than giving your younger guys a look for next year?

And it wasn't just that game.

I guess we just expected more from AU I guess...

They're the first team ever to run the E8 and go 10-0. They were run up and down the field on Defense today vs a team from a New England conference.

I'm not trying to pick on you, Upstate. As we can see, I'm guilty of this thinking too. I fully expected IC to kill Curry in 2008, and scoffed about Norwich's Pool A's after they went from E8 doormat to ECFC darling. I'm not being holier than thou.

But we've seen enough of these close games that we shouldn't be treating them like wastes of time anymore, or acting like it's so unbelievable that our teams didn't just walk all
over them.

[bman]

and until we see the NE teams making a dent in the playoffs (and not the ECACs), that perception is reality...

I don't agree with that, I am all for ECACs. As a fan of team who has made a deep run in the playoffs only to lose to UWW. I will say as of late when was last time any ER team made a dent in the playoffs past the 2nd round. Many NE teams face the #1 or #2 ER team 1st round and make an early exit. I think at this point as they continue to play top ER teams and be competitive they will eventually win some big playoff games and OOC games. But it really starts with early season scheduling and winning those games. If majority of the teams in the NE conference only schedule within NE , which results in "Team NE" usually getting sent to the #1 or #2 team in ER or Mount (mainly due to travel). You have to include ECACs, I know Salisbury does, it's another argument to make a statement.

MAND  I know you are a knowledgeable football guy, and know the East region teams, but I don't get your logic.  I'll break my logic down a bit more so you can see where I am coming from...
I stated, until we see a NE team making a dent in the playoffs (I didn't even say "deep run" here but I'll get to that), the perception is reality.   The perception is that when I have to compare a NE team with another East region team, when I don't have a common opponent...where do I go?  SOS only takes me so far, since the only real comparison I have is to take the OOC games from that conference that year.  I also have to look back to how the conferences compare when in the (NCAA) playoffs...why?  Because that is a conference's 1 or 2 team going up against another conference's 1 or 2 team.  (I'll get to ECACs in a moment).   
In that mode I took a look back at the last 9 years and how the NE teams fared in games I can use to directly compare...
below is a matrix that provides detail:
Year   W   L      NE team   Opp   
2007   1   0      42   21   #3 Curry Beats #7 Hartwick
   0   1      7   38   #3Curry Loses to #2 St John Fisher who then loses to MU by 42
   1   1      49   59   
                  
2008   0   1      14   31   #6 Plymouth St loses to #3 Cortland St
   1   0      26   21   #7 Curry beats #2 Ithaca
   0   1      0   42   #7 Curry Loses to #3 Cortland  - who then loses to MU 41-14
   1   2      40   94   
                  
2009   0   1      22   38   #6 Maine Maritime loses to #3 Montclair St - who then loses to MU 62-14
                  
2010   0   1      0   60   #3 SUNY Maritime loses to #6 Alfred 60-0
   0   1      35   49   #7 Endicott loses to #2 Cortland
   0   2      35   109   
                  
2011   0   1      24   62   #7 WNE loses to #2 Salisbury 
                  
2012   0   1      19   20   #5 Framingham St Loses to #3 Cortland St
   0   1      14   44   #7 Bridgewater State loses to #1 Widener - who later loses to MU 72-17
   0   2      33   64   
                  
2013   0   1      17   20   # 3Framingham St loses to# 7 Ithaca
   0   1      7   34   # 7 Galludet loses to # 1 Hobart
   0   1      0   24   #6 Endicott loses to #3 Rowan
   0   3      24   78   
                  
2014   1   1      20   19   MIT beats Husson *   2 NE Teams
   0   1      0   59   #6 MIT loses to #1 Wesley
   1   2      0   59    * excluding the conference game against itself
                  
2015   0   1      0   49   # 6 Norwich loses to # 5 Albright
   0   1      22   42   # 7 Framingham loses to # 2 Wesley
   0   2      22   91   
                  
2016   1   1      44   27   WNE beats Husson *  2 NE teams
   0   1      27   33   # 8 Bridgewater State loses to#1 Alfred
   0   1       24   30   # 5 WNE loses to Alfred
   1   2      51   63    8 excluding the conference game against itself
                  
   2   15      300   870     * excluding the games against itself
                  2 wins - both against E8
                  Both wins by Curry
                    rankings may vary slightly - some year's brackets do not have rankings
                  so I used the standard bracket ranking methodology for those years


The detail shows that (excluding games NE teams played itself), the NE teams have exactly 2 wins in 9 years...and both of those were both by Curry. They have compiled a 2-15 record.  No NE team has won an NCAA playoff game against a non-NE conference since 2008.  Also, In that time they have been outscored by 570 points, and competitive (within 14 points) in 4 of the 17 games.   Last year, was (as you mention that they have been making strides competitively), their best year, in that both of their losses were competitive.
So other than some E8 and Liberty league games (in which we still also are unsure on how good those teams are this year) games, how do we compare?
You also mention that the NE teams get sent to play themselves or the East #1, but the facts don't bear that out...in only 4 of 17 games did a NE team face a number 1 team, and in tow of the 4 it's because they have advanced.  I'd make the opposite claim.  I'd say that the NE teams have had a path that has allowed them to avoid the # 1 team, much more often than not...The harsh reality here is that someone who has history with the East HAS to take into account conference strength when no other comparables are available.
ECAC games while fun, don't really provide an indicator of conference strength in all cases (in some they certainly do).  Here's why:  1.  Not all teams participate in ECAC play, so a game played between the highest available member of a conference may be a #1 vs a #4.  Also, teams view the ECAC games differently.  Some are excited about the opportunity, and certainly it's an extra game for seniors, but for a team that felt it was NCAA bound, the game more often than not is a letdown, and you don't see teams best.  In the south ECAC games in many cases there is little to no student participation as they are on break.  ECACs as such are not often an indicator of conference strength.
Now it may seem like I'm anti NE (far from it).  I have certain teams in NE that I follow and usually watch at least 1 NE conference game (or at least some parts of games) weekly.  I desperately want the East to be competitive nationally again, and would love for a true East team to be in the Stagg bowl...I just have to be realistic about conference when I compare...

[bman]

and until we see the NE teams making a dent in the playoffs (and not the ECACs), that perception is reality...

I don't agree with that, I am all for ECACs. As a fan of team who has made a deep run in the playoffs only to lose to UWW. I will say as of late when was last time any ER team made a dent in the playoffs past the 2nd round. Many NE teams face the #1 or #2 ER team 1st round and make an early exit. I think at this point as they continue to play top ER teams and be competitive they will eventually win some big playoff games and OOC games. But it really starts with early season scheduling and winning those games. If majority of the teams in the NE conference only schedule within NE , which results in "Team NE" usually getting sent to the #1 or #2 team in ER or Mount (mainly due to travel). You have to include ECACs, I know Salisbury does, it's another argument to make a statement.

Sorry, forgot 1 thing I said I'd mention (and to answer this) 9 time in the last 9 years...A true East team has made the quarterfinals (meaning they made it past the 2nd round),  17 of the last 18 years.

[Bombers798891]

I also have to look back to how the conferences compare when in the (NCAA) playoffs...why?  Because that is a conference's 1 or 2 team going up against another conference's 1 or 2 team. 

If we want to see how NE schools do against the top 2 teams from NY conferences, every such game is relevant, not just the NCAA games. And there are plenty of competitive games against the E8/LL top 2 every year

Alfred 35, Husson 28 in 2016
Fisher 35, Springfield 21 in 2016
Hobart 12, Springfield 7 in 2016
Hobart 35, WPI 31 in 2016
St. Lawrence 28, WPI 21 in 2016
RPI 28, WPI 21 in 2015
RPI 17, Springfield 14 in 2015
Cortland 61, Framingham 49 in 2015
Hobart 28, Curry 18 in 2014
Hobart 28, WPI 14 in 2014
Norwich 10, St. Lawrence 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 21, Springfield 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 20, WPI 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 14, Norwich 3 in 2013
Springfield 21, St. Lawrence 20 in 2013
Salve Regina 17, Union 14 in 2012
Springfield 31, Alfred 8 in 2012
Hobart 27, WPI 13 in 2011
Salve Regina 25, Union 22 in 2011
Alfred 35, Springfield 28 in 2010
Norwich 25, St. Lawrence 14 in 2010
RPI 6, Endicott 3 in 2010
WPI 24, RPI 10 in 2010
Union 21, WPI 17 in 2009
Springfield 45, Hartwick 31 in 2008

[MRMIKESMITH]

I also have to look back to how the conferences compare when in the (NCAA) playoffs...why?  Because that is a conference's 1 or 2 team going up against another conference's 1 or 2 team. 

If we want to see how NE schools do against the top 2 teams from NY conferences, every such game is relevant, not just the NCAA games. And there are plenty of competitive games every year

Alfred 35, Husson 28 in 2016
Fisher 35, Springfield 21 in 2016
Hobart 12, Springfield 7 in 2016
Hobart 35, WPI 31 in 2016
St. Lawrence 28, WPI 21 in 2016
RPI 28, WPI 21 in 2015
RPI 17, Springfield 14 in 2015
Cortland 61, Framingham 49 in 2015
Hobart 28, Curry 18 in 2014
Hobart 28, WPI 14 in 2014
Norwich 10, St. Lawrence 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 21, Springfield 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 20, WPI 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 14, Norwich 3 in 2013
Springfield 21, St. Lawrence 20 in 2013
Salve Regina 17, Union 14 in 2012
Springfield 31, Alfred 8 in 2012
Hobart 27, WPI 13 in 2011
Salve Regina 25, Union 22 in 2011
Alfred 35, Springfield 28 in 2010
Norwich 25, St. Lawrence 14 in 2010
RPI 6, Endicott 3 in 2010
WPI 24, RPI 10 in 2010
Union 21, WPI 17 in 2009
Springfield 45, Hartwick 31 in 2008

That was my argument. You have to include all data. I know playoffs means a lot, but everyone doesn't make the playoffs. You have to include those ECAC games etcetera. That's like saying Salisbury is not good because we have only beaten Wesley like once in the last 12 years. (Gut wrenching to type). However, there have been plenty of nail biters in those years. 

[Bombers798891]

I know in was MANDGSU. I just wanted to give the data.

The idea that the NE schools can't compete against the best in the NY conferences is simply not true. We see many competitive games every year.

That doesn't mean the NE schools are on the level of the NY schools. We still see plenty of blowouts, and there aren't many wins by NE schools. But they're not wholly uncompetitive.

[Bombers798891]

That was my argument. You have to include all data. I know playoffs means a lot, but everyone doesn't make the playoffs. You have to include those ECAC games etcetera. That's like saying Salisbury is not good because we have only beaten Wesley like once in the last 12 years. (Gut wrenching to type). However, there have been plenty of nail biters in those years.

Cortaca is another great example. IC has lost 7 in a row, but many were very close, last minute victories

[bman]

I also have to look back to how the conferences compare when in the (NCAA) playoffs...why?  Because that is a conference's 1 or 2 team going up against another conference's 1 or 2 team. 

If we want to see how NE schools do against the top 2 teams from NY conferences, every such game is relevant, not just the NCAA games. And there are plenty of competitive games every year

Alfred 35, Husson 28 in 2016
Fisher 35, Springfield 21 in 2016
Hobart 12, Springfield 7 in 2016
Hobart 35, WPI 31 in 2016
St. Lawrence 28, WPI 21 in 2016
RPI 28, WPI 21 in 2015
RPI 17, Springfield 14 in 2015
Cortland 61, Framingham 49 in 2015
Hobart 28, Curry 18 in 2014
Hobart 28, WPI 14 in 2014
Norwich 10, St. Lawrence 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 21, Springfield 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 20, WPI 7 in 2014
St. Lawrence 14, Norwich 3 in 2013
Springfield 21, St. Lawrence 20 in 2013
Salve Regina 17, Union 14 in 2012
Springfield 31, Alfred 8 in 2012
Hobart 27, WPI 13 in 2011
Salve Regina 25, Union 22 in 2011
Alfred 35, Springfield 28 in 2010
Norwich 25, St. Lawrence 14 in 2010
RPI 6, Endicott 3 in 2010
WPI 24, RPI 10 in 2010
Union 21, WPI 17 in 2009
Springfield 45, Hartwick 31 in 2008

That was my argument. You have to include all data. I know playoffs means a lot, but everyone doesn't make the playoffs. You have to include those ECAC games etcetera. That's like saying Salisbury is not good because we have only beaten Wesley like once in the last 12 years. (Gut wrenching to type). However, there have been plenty of nail biters in those years.

I'm not sure how this discussion devolved into any statement of "NE schools are not competitive, therefore they shouldn't be ranked".  This seems to revert back to this point every time....
but it is not the point of my posts.  My posts simply refer to the fact that when one has no other comparative to use in creating their top ten, conference history creates another check box.  Fair or unfair, it is what it is...
Because in the East, the NE teams tend to play the E8 and LL, while the MAC and the NJAC typically play(with some Centennial League games mixed in), we don't see much/any NE vs the MAC and NJAC to use to compare.  They play in their bubbles.  It is easier to resolve a tie between an E8 and a ECFC or a CCC team for example since there is at least a couple regular season OOC games to use as a reference.  But how would one for example break a tie between say Albright team and Husson?  Generally there are going to be no common opponents, and maybe not even opponents of opponents...   And how does Albright beating Franklin and Marshall in the ECAC bowl vs Husson losing to WNE in the NCAAs compare? 
Please opine on all things being equal, what other factor you would consider...

[Bombers798891]

Please opine on all things being equal, what other factor you would consider...

My issue is that you only looked at a certain subset of games.

In 2014, MASCAC Champion Framingham was competitive against the NJAC champion, and in 2015, they were competitive against the E8 champion. This year, Framingham beat the likely E8 runner-up. The fact that those games didn't occur in the playoffs doesn't change that they're games against the other conference's top team.