Best D3 Conferences

[jknezek]

With the exception of calling the WIAC "a freaking joke" I think DD's comments are well thought out and reasoned, but not particularly applicable. With the breadth of D3 you just can't come up with a level playing field in terms of "fair recruiting" for all schools. D3 is wonderful because it allows for so many different kinds of schools. State schools, regional schools, military schools, large private schools, small liberal arts schools, academically challenging schools and schools that are a revolving door... D3 includes everything from the best to the worst of academic institutions. Literally in D3 there is a school for anyone, UNLESS you want to get a free ride for playing a sport...  However, this breadth will always be an issue if you are concerned about all teams having a fair shake at winning a national title.

Playing in D3 means setting realistic expectations. W&L winning the ODAC? Possible. W&L winning 2 or 3 games in the D3 playoffs? Extremely unlikely. Therefore I'm really proud when we win the ODAC, love that we get a shot at the playoffs, and not real upset when we lose in the first round.

A few years ago we went to the playoffs for the first time and played Wilkes University for the only time. Wilkes is my parents' alma mater and I flew up from FL and drove with my Dad to the game. Even though W&L got blown out by a school with a huge admissions advantage it didn't matter to me. My Dad and I thought it was a great moment that those young men working hard both athletically and academically gave us a chance to see such an unlikely, and yet for us, magical matchup. Outside of the playoffs, I don't think those 2 teams will ever meet again. And it was only possibly because D3 has such a disparate makeup. I really hope some other lucky family got that experience this year. It really is part of the magic of D3.

[02 Warhawk]

Isn't the answer really to make that WIAC play at a level that better reflects its enrollments? Whitewater's undergrad enrollment (and LaCrosse's and Eau Claire's . . . ) is within a stone's throw of 10,000! Compare that to the enrollments of the other D3 schools in the 32. Indeed, there are entire CONFERENCES of schools playing DIVISION 1 football with smaller enrollments (Patriot League, Pioneer League, Ivy League). Meanwhile, ALL of our neighboring states (Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan) play their non-flagship state universities at D1 or D2 (so much for the sad songs about scholarship funds). Indeed, name me ANOTHER state where ALL the state extensions play in Division 3. But--all hail, mighty WIAC! Right.  IMHO--and as a Wisconsin resident, I might add--pound for pound, the WIAC is a freaking joke.

Seriously pall  

this high enrollment = success "myth" has been shot down time and after time...you're a freaking joke.

Where were you 7+ years ago, when Whitewater's student population and roster size was the same. yet they weren't even considered a threat on the national level for DIII football....far from it actually.

What has changed between then and now? maybe give the coaching staff a little credit.

you of all people (Notre Dame fan) should know that size of the institution doesn't matter when judging college football success. How small is ND's student population...yet they are one of the most storied programs in college football history. Same for Duke University and basketball. Looking at their enrollment Duke and ND should never win a game??.  

...this isn't high school athletics, Teddy.

[dlippiel]

So the PAC's champion eventually gets steamrolled by an ASC team.  The NCAC's champ gets steamrolled by an OAC team.  The HCAC's champ gets rolled by the WIAC.  If we "know" that the champions from certain leagues are eventually going to play champions from other leagues that will inevitably stomp them, then why do we have a tournament that includes anybody that doesn't come from one of those 6-7 leagues? 

Hmmm....championship access limited to 6-7 leagues that are arbitrarily determined to the be "strong".  A discriminatory system like that already exists and it stinks.  Ours is a tournament of champions, with a handful of extras invited to round things out nicely.  It works.  When week 1 kicks off, the championship is available to everybody.  That's a pretty cool situation...why screw with that? 

A solid post 

[DoubleDomer]

Jknezek: Well, it seems to me that we're talking about the difference between legislating to create fairness and legislating to eliminate unfairness.  The former is folly; the latter is, by comparison, the point of legislating at all.  As for Warhawk02's argument, I tend to be unimpressed by the argument that a position has been shot down "time after time." Unless we're talking about pre-Copernican cosmology or zombies, I tend to think there's little in the world--certainly in the world of college football--that's self evident. And as for UWW's coaches: Congratulations on finding some who could make full use of their inherent advantages. Perhaps you should be introduced to Tom Taraska and Dave Keel. Same difference, my friend. As for your comments on Notre Dame and Duke, they might make sense if Amherst or Pomona had made 6 straight D3 appearances, but under the actual circumstances, I have no idea what point you think you're making.

[Knightstalker]

Isn't the answer really to make that WIAC play at a level that better reflects its enrollments? Whitewater's undergrad enrollment (and LaCrosse's and Eau Claire's . . . ) is within a stone's throw of 10,000! Compare that to the enrollments of the other D3 schools in the 32. Indeed, there are entire CONFERENCES of schools playing DIVISION 1 football with smaller enrollments (Patriot League, Pioneer League, Ivy League). Meanwhile, ALL of our neighboring states (Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan) play their non-flagship state universities at D1 or D2 (so much for the sad songs about scholarship funds). Indeed, name me ANOTHER state where ALL the state extensions play in Division 3. But--all hail, mighty WIAC! Right.  IMHO--and as a Wisconsin resident, I might add--pound for pound, the WIAC is a freaking joke.

All the NJ state schools except for two are D-III.  Rutgers and NJIT are D-I and NJIT only did it for soccer.  Out of 12 state schools 10 are D-III comparable to WI.

[skunks_sidekick]

Phewww......thank goodness for the voodoo magic _{Larry Kehres}that allows Mount to compete with these state school brutes.   

[02 Warhawk]

Jknezek: Well, it seems to me that we're talking about the difference between legislating to create fairness and legislating to eliminate unfairness.  The former is folly; the latter is, by comparison, the point of legislating at all.  As for Warhawk02's argument, I tend to be unimpressed by the argument that a position has been shot down "time after time." Unless we're talking about pre-Copernican cosmology or zombies, I tend to think there's little in the world--certainly in the world of college football--that's self evident. And as for UWW's coaches: Congratulations on finding some who could make full use of their inherent advantages. Perhaps you should be introduced to Tom Taraska and Dave Keel. Same difference, my friend. As for your comments on Notre Dame and Duke, they might make sense if Amherst or Pomona had made 6 straight D3 appearances, but under the actual circumstances, I have no idea what point you think you're making.

You're right...Amherst does indeed have no chance at a DIII championship, but it has nothing to do with it's enrollment, academics or roster size. The NESCAC doesn't choose to participate in post-season football....so no school in the NESCAC will ever get that chance. Bad example.

How about Mount Union? small, private school (enrollment smaller than Pomona's, actually) that accumulated more NCAA success then any large, public/state school in DIII history. What "inherent advantages" does Kehres take advantage of?

I'll give you that fact that public/state schools don't have the admission standards of most private institutions. Also, that tuition is typically less than most private schools. But for people to say that a football program has an advantage over another b/c of its size of its student body....I don't think so.

[jknezek]

All the NJ state schools except for two are D-III.  Rutgers and NJIT are D-I and NJIT only did it for soccer.  Out of 12 state schools 10 are D-III comparable to WI.

As a long-time Rutgers fan growing up in the late 80s and 90s, there was a period of time when we thought that "except" should have been removed! Just kidding. Although it was never much fun going to an empty stadium and seeing them lose by 40.

[DoubleDomer]

Right, Amherst was a poor example. My apologies. Luckily, good examples abound.

As for Mount Union, I don't know a lot about them, but the circumstantial evidence is that their "inherent advantages" include great coaching, good recruiting, strong player commitment, excellent conditioning--pretty much the same things that Bob Reade and Ron Schipper, etc., used to lead Augie, Central, and others like them to impressive success in D3 against PEER INSTITUTIONS.  No matter how many titles it wins in D3, Whitewater will never be in that class.

I'm sorry you don't believe the statistical facts of the advantages that attach to having a student body nearly FIVE TIMES larger than your competitive set. It seems pretty plain to me.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Right, Amherst was a poor example. My apologies. Luckily, good examples abound.

As for Mount Union, I don't know a lot about them, but the circumstantial evidence is that their "inherent advantages" include great coaching, good recruiting, strong player commitment, excellent conditioning--pretty much the same things that Bob Reade and Ron Schipper, etc., used to lead Augie, Central, and others like them to impressive success in D3 against PEER INSTITUTIONS.  No matter how many titles it wins in D3, Whitewater will never be in that class.

I'm sorry you don't believe the statistical facts of the advantages that attach to having a student body nearly FIVE TIMES larger than your competitive set. It seems pretty plain to me.

Just one problem.  UWW is not even the largest enrollment school in the WIAC, much less d3.  Explain that, 'enrollment is destiny' man!

BTW, Montclair St. (larger than ANY WIAC school) was blown out 44-7 by Wesley (1350 students) in the playoffs.  Should MSU be forced to move to d2?

[Pat Coleman]

Right, Amherst was a poor example. My apologies. Luckily, good examples abound.

As for Mount Union, I don't know a lot about them, but the circumstantial evidence is that their "inherent advantages" include great coaching, good recruiting, strong player commitment, excellent conditioning--pretty much the same things that Bob Reade and Ron Schipper, etc., used to lead Augie, Central, and others like them to impressive success in D3 against PEER INSTITUTIONS.  No matter how many titles it wins in D3, Whitewater will never be in that class.

I'm sorry you don't believe the statistical facts of the advantages that attach to having a student body nearly FIVE TIMES larger than your competitive set. It seems pretty plain to me.

Then how does Mount Union manage?

[ADL70]

Right, Amherst was a poor example. My apologies. Luckily, good examples abound.

As for Mount Union, I don't know a lot about them, but the circumstantial evidence is that their "inherent advantages" include great coaching, good recruiting, strong player commitment, excellent conditioning--pretty much the same things that Bob Reade and Ron Schipper, etc., used to lead Augie, Central, and others like them to impressive success in D3 against PEER INSTITUTIONS.  No matter how many titles it wins in D3, Whitewater will never be in that class.

I'm sorry you don't believe the statistical facts of the advantages that attach to having a student body nearly FIVE TIMES larger than your competitive set. It seems pretty plain to me.

Then how does Mount Union manage?

Not that I'm buying what DD is selling, but I think the first part of the middle quoted paragraph answers you Pat.

An advantage (in the abstract, not referring to any particular advantage) is not necessarily insurmountable.

Mont Union's previous success is now a huge advantage.  What would be interesting to look at would be what was done to go from three or four years at the top to now nearly twenty years.

[02 Warhawk]

Right, Amherst was a poor example. My apologies. Luckily, good examples abound.

As for Mount Union, I don't know a lot about them, but the circumstantial evidence is that their "inherent advantages" include great coaching, good recruiting, strong player commitment, excellent conditioning--pretty much the same things that Bob Reade and Ron Schipper, etc., used to lead Augie, Central, and others like them to impressive success in D3 against PEER INSTITUTIONS.  No matter how many titles it wins in D3, Whitewater will never be in that class.

I'm sorry you don't believe the statistical facts of the advantages that attach to having a student body nearly FIVE TIMES larger than your competitive set. It seems pretty plain to me.

sounds similar to what goes on at UWW.

sorry, i don't see the advantage at a large student body...looks like I'm not the only one either. It's almost like saying, the Chicago Bears should never lose to the Green Bay Packers b/c Chicago is a larger city/market than Green Bay. Doesn't make sense at all does it....

[DoubleDomer]

Uh, no.  Actually--assuming that you're a Wisconsin resident--it's perhaps more like saying that Milwaukee Marquette could reliably be expected to beat Burlington Catholic Central.  Indeed, that's a rough analog, but serviceable. Marquette's enrollment is about 5 times BCC's, both are tuition-driven, both recruit (no matter what they claim) and so are not put to the task of building a football team out of whoever shows up, and both are powerhouses in their classes. But MUHS is Division 1 and BCC is Division 7, and I doubt the 'Toppers from Milwaukee would walk around with their chests puffed out over beating the 'Toppers from Burlington year after year. Still a very rough analogy, but you continue to deny the objective evidence of the statistical analysis.

[Warhawk 96]

One point is missing, no one is violating any of the terms that we've agreed upon to be division three. Having a small enrollment is part of the price that you pay to have a small, private, exclusive institution. We've taken the approach that education should be affordable and that everyone should have an opportunity to receive a quality education if they pursue it. We admit more people but our graduation standards aren't lower than anyone's so if someone, for whatever reason in life, didn't get into a small exclusive college they have an opportunity to redeem themselves and learn the things needed to lead a successful life.

Greyshirting has no bearing on the quality of the team that may exist in the WIAC. People who are cut from the team after tryouts do not practice or workout with the team. They are welcome to try again during spring ball or next fall just like everyone who was cut but there aren't specific "greyshirts". That's just a term made up for "you weren't good enough now, better luck next time."

All of these points are invalidated by the fact that everyone recruits students to play sports. None of these teams are roaming the hallways trying to find athletes. Recruiting is a big part of building a program and if more quality players are gravitating towards another program then it means that you need to find a way to attract more quality athletes. No one is using any sports related financial incentives to play at a division three school so the playing field is about as level as it can get in that regard. The first thing that you need to do to be a successful program is the same thing that you need to do to be a successful person. Appreciate your strengths, improve your weaknesses, and stop worrying about the differences between yourself and another person(program).