Best D3 Conferences

[retagent]

I hope I didn't come off too harsh 02. I didn't mean to be, and you seem not to have taken it that way. I still think that Meich gave figures, but I'm not sure they're factual. Where did he get those? You did give the attribution and the explanation, and didn't try to pass them off as more than they were. I do think you tried to be objective, and give you credit for your efforts.

Thanks for the correction. I could be flippant and say I did it on purpose, but, I always look at it after I type it, and wonder which spelling is correct, and lazy dufus that I am, don't bother to "look it up."

[02 Warhawk]

I hope I didn't come off too harsh 02. I didn't mean to be, and you seem not to have taken it that way. I still think that Meich gave figures, but I'm not sure they're factual. Where did he get those? You did give the attribution and the explanation, and didn't try to pass them off as more than they were. I do think you tried to be objective, and give you credit for your efforts.

Thanks for the correction. I could be flippant and say I did it on purpose, but, I always look at it after I type it, and wonder which spelling is correct, and lazy dufus that I am, don't bother to "look it up."

No problem....thanks for supporting WIAC football and taking the time to read my blog post. 

[hazzben]

I hope I didn't come off too harsh 02. I didn't mean to be, and you seem not to have taken it that way. I still think that Meich gave figures, but I'm not sure they're factual. Where did he get those? You did give the attribution and the explanation, and didn't try to pass them off as more than they were. I do think you tried to be objective, and give you credit for your efforts.

Thanks for the correction. I could be flippant and say I did it on purpose, but, I always look at it after I type it, and wonder which spelling is correct, and lazy dufus that I am, don't bother to "look it up."

Yeah, the citing of Meich was far from legitimate statistical information. It sounded more like a hypothetical and even if it was a real scenario it was 1 example and only compared what a MN player would pay at a WIAC school. It says nothing about what a Wisconsin player would incur as the price difference if he chose a MN or WI private versus an in state Wisconsin school.

Not to mention, UST is an outlier in aid offered. They aren't just offering more aid than WIAC schools, they're offering more than almost all the other privates in the area. Even if a school like Bethel offered a Wisconsin kid 20,000 in AID (which is way more than most students get) he'd still be paying 2 to 3 times what he would at several WIAC schools.

I do think your arguments about a vacuum of scholarship programs and the irrelevance of size are totally legitimate.

[02 Warhawk]

I hope I didn't come off too harsh 02. I didn't mean to be, and you seem not to have taken it that way. I still think that Meich gave figures, but I'm not sure they're factual. Where did he get those? You did give the attribution and the explanation, and didn't try to pass them off as more than they were. I do think you tried to be objective, and give you credit for your efforts.

Thanks for the correction. I could be flippant and say I did it on purpose, but, I always look at it after I type it, and wonder which spelling is correct, and lazy dufus that I am, don't bother to "look it up."

Yeah, the citing of Meich was far from legitimate statistical information. It sounded more like a hypothetical and even if it was a real scenario it was 1 example and only compared what a MN player would pay at a WIAC school. It says nothing about what a Wisconsin player would incur as the price difference if he chose a MN or WI private versus an in state Wisconsin school.

Not to mention, UST is an outlier in aid offered. They aren't just offering more aid than WIAC schools, they're offering more than almost all the other privates in the area. Even if a school like Bethel offered a Wisconsin kid 20,000 in AID (which is way more than most students get) he'd still be paying 2 to 3 times what he would at several WIAC schools.

I do think your arguments about a vacuum of scholarship programs and the irrelevance of size are totally legitimate.

Thanks for taking to the time to read it...I appreciate it!

[jknezek]

I'm going to start off with what was originally my last paragraph in case people get tired of what I wrote and don't read all the way through. I don't think the WIAC or the NJAC should move from D3. They follow the D3 rules, compete well, play hard, and win. Nobody said there has to be a level playing field for D3 teams or that you could even define what a "level playing field" would be. Every other school and conference should attempt to find their own advantage and exploit it half as well as the WIAC does. Now that seems like a bad way to start the post, but remember, it is supposed to be at the end...


Your blog does a nice job of talking about certain factors. You do a nice job bringing up the dearth of scholarship options in the Wisconsin public system. Personally, I believe this is the major advantage the WIAC possesses and the conference's truly excellent coaches and facilities exploit it to the maximum advantage. Interestingly, the lack of competing scholarship options is the best differentiating point between the WIAC and every other D3 conference.

For example, almost every other grouping of large state schools is found in conferences playing at the D2 or FCS level. ExTartan, another member of this board, pointed out that the PSAC is the Pennsylvania equivalent to the WIAC and plays in D2, the WVIAC is somewhat analgous for WV and also plays in D2, the RMAC covers the mountain state schools, also D2. In fact, if you look at many of the D2 conferences, they are made up of large state schools offering scholarships. In fact, the vast majority share the profile of the WIAC. See here for yourself: http://www.d2football.com/teams/

Does that mean the WIAC is misplaced? Not the way D3 is defined, but it could mean the WIAC has a significant advantage. There is no rule in D3 about state/private/large/small schools. In fact, there is one other conference in D3 that truly looks like it. You very fairly mention the NJAC and point out that except for Rowan's run, they haven't been a year in and out Stagg Bowl level conference. So why has the WIAC had success and the NJAC has been more tepid?

One very simple explanation is the NJAC fights a slew of local FCS schools for kids. Competition the WIAC doesn't face. The NEC, the Ivy League, The Patriot League, and the CAA all have schools within the same driving distance footprint (although not necessarily within the State of NJ as NJAC is a bit of a misnomer for football) of the NJAC that the WIAC encompasses. Many of the kids playing or sitting second string on these teams could propel the NJAC teams to be competitive with the WIAC. While the two FCS NJ schools aren't public (Monmouth and Princeton), other NJAC schools not located in NJ compete with public schools within their own state (Cortland State and SUNY Albany for example).

Now, all that being said, my personal opinion is that the WIAC has a significant advantage over the rest of the D3 universe. Having an advantage is not the same as becoming a champion however. You still have to take advantage of your advantage. This is where I think the WIAC excels. As you pointed out, they have excellent coaches, facilities, and kids. This is not simply due to a lack of recruiting competition. At its very core, though, the building block of the WIAC's strength is definitely found in their unique state atmosphere.

Every other school and conference should attempt to find their own advantage and exploit it half as well as the WIAC does.

[02 Warhawk]

So why has the WIAC had success and the NJAC has been more tepid?.....One very simple explanation is the NJAC fights a slew of local FCS schools for kids. Competition the WIAC doesn't face.

I totally agree. I think I even mention that in my blog about the abundance of programs that the NJAC has to compete with for recruits (at any level of play).

Now, all that being said, my personal opinion is that the WIAC has a significant advantage over the rest of the D3 universe. Having an advantage is not the same as becoming a champion however. You still have to take advantage of your advantage. This is where I think the WIAC excels. As you pointed out, they have excellent coaches, facilities, and kids. This is not simply due to a lack of recruiting competition. At its very core, though, the building block of the WIAC's strength is definitely found in their unique state atmosphere.

Every other school and conference should attempt to find their own advantage and exploit it half as well as the WIAC does.

jknezek gets it

Your insight is much appreciated. Thanks!

[ExTartanPlayer]

I agree w/jknezek above.  I wholeheartedly believe that WIAC schools should be "allowed" to play Division III football, because they play by all the rules, et cet.  However, I think that the following rings very true:

"...the dearth of scholarship options in the Wisconsin public system. Personally, I believe this is the major advantage the WIAC possesses and the conference's truly excellent coaches and facilities exploit it to the maximum advantage. Interestingly, the lack of competing scholarship options is the best differentiating point between the WIAC and every other D3 conference.

For example, almost every other grouping of large state schools is found in conferences playing at the D2 or FCS level. ExTartan, another member of this board, pointed out that the PSAC is the Pennsylvania equivalent to the WIAC..."

I suspect that many of the same kids that end up at WIAC schools in Wisconsin would probably end up at the Division II PSAC schools if they grew up in Pennsylvania.  With that said:

"Having an advantage is not the same as becoming a champion however. You still have to take advantage of your advantage. This is where I think the WIAC excels. As you pointed out, they have excellent coaches, facilities, and kids. This is not simply due to a lack of recruiting competition. At its very core, though, the building block of the WIAC's strength is definitely found in their unique state atmosphere."

[dahlby]

Taking 02 Warhawk's analysis a step further:

If in fact coach's have "recruited" their team before school starts and they do not put a team together from the total student population (which I believe to be true), then one should address
the recruiting process and the awarding of student aide.

According to my understanding, an applicant (recruit) applies for admission, the fact that they are an athlete should have no bearing (according to D3 guidelines) on the amount and/or type of aide they are to achieve. Basically, only academic standing and need basis is to be applied. In other words, the athlete is compared (as a student only) to the average standards of the entire student body.

Here is where it can get muddied.
Point 1-
Let's take two schools: A and B. If school A has a higher GPA and test score averages than school B, then the applicant to school A will need a higher GPA and test scores to be eligible for academic aide than they would need to receive financial aide to school B, which has lower averages than school A.

Point 2-
Qualifying for need basis financial aide is also a situation that could vary by school, and have an impact on the financial aide an athlete could receive.

Point 3-
The  total amount of endowment(s) that a school has impacts the number and amounts of grants that a school can award.

Point 4-
Facilities play an important part of the recruiting process.

Poiint 5-
The coaching staff, especially head coach and recruiter, also play an important part of the process, in conjuction with the recruiting/admissions staff of the school. In addition, various conferences, even schools, have certain limitations to the recruiting process that can significantly impact the process.

I have probably missed a few points, but if in fact one is to look for some deficiencies in the
process, then IMHO, one should start with these areas, and forget about the size of the school.

But, putting all of this aside, I would hope that ALL student athletes would evaluate which school would best prepare them for a successful career in whatever field they are going to choose.

[02 Warhawk]

Taking 02 Warhawk's analysis a step further:

If in fact coach's have "recruited" their team before school starts and they do not put a team together from the total student population (which I believe to be true), then one should address
the recruiting process and the awarding of student aide.

According to my understanding, an applicant (recruit) applies for admission, the fact that they are an athlete should have no bearing (according to D3 guidelines) on the amount and/or type of aide they are to achieve. Basically, only academic standing and need basis is to be applied. In other words, the athlete is compared (as a student only) to the average standards of the entire student body.

100% correct

But, putting all of this aside, I would hope that ALL student athletes would evaluate which school would best prepare them for a successful career in whatever field they are going to choose.

Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Especially when it comes to transfer students. Student/athletes are transferring to - and out of - Whitewater to take advantage of the opportunity as an athlete first. Then the education is an after thought. UWW has also had their fair share of players who transfer out, just because they feel they won't get the playing time they deserve. Then they go somwhere that fits their football needs first....then academics

Like when Whitewater won the Stagg Bowl in 07, that year we had a QB (Danny Jones) transfer from Cal Lutheran. I guaranteed he transferred thinking about his collegiate football career, and not because of what UWW can offer academically.

[dahlby]

The transfer situation could be taken care of real quick, just make everyone who desires to transfer sit out a year, the same as transfering from one D1 school to another.

[02 Warhawk]

The transfer situation could be taken care of real quick, just make everyone who desires to transfer sit out a year, the same as transfering from one D1 school to another.

If that was the rule...UWW would not have won (or possibly made it to) the Stagg Bowl in 2007. They probably would have lost to MHB in the playoffs.

[retagent]

That would be an option, but I think it really isn't appropriate for a Non-scholarship Division. I would think most, though not all, transfers are academics related - or maybe that's my hope.

One question I have about the WIAC, however, is why does it seem that there usually seems to be one dominant program for a period of time, then another, then another. I would expect to see more parity at most times. I'm not sure there is an answer, just curious. The best I can come up with is changes in coaching staffs. I don't know if there is any correlation, for example, with UW Lacrosse tailing off, and a changs in staff. I'll let those with more inside info respond.

[02 Warhawk]

That would be an option, but I think it really isn't appropriate for a Non-scholarship Division. I would think most, though not all, transfers are academics related - or maybe that's my hope.

One question I have about the WIAC, however, is why does it seem that there usually seems to be one dominant program for a period of time, then another, then another. I would expect to see more parity at most times. I'm not sure there is an answer, just curious. The best I can come up with is changes in coaching staffs. I don't know if there is any correlation, for example, with UW Lacrosse tailing off, and a changs in staff. I'll let those with more inside info respond.

Fair question...I thought UWSP would join UWW at the top of the WIAC of late, but they have been very disappointing this season. I think it has something to do (and I'm being honest here - not at all cocky) the fact that Whitewater is the "sexy" school to go to right now. Especially if you get overlooked for a scholarship. There might be that mentality for high school students, "If you can't beat them...join em." I'm just guessing here, of course....I really don't know.

Also, UWW seems to have developed a strong pipeline with northern IL. That's another reason I think UWW has been so good...compared to other WIAC schools. Their proximity to the Southeast WI (Milwaukee market) and northern IL (Chicago market) I think has been related to their success.

[emma17]

That would be an option, but I think it really isn't appropriate for a Non-scholarship Division. I would think most, though not all, transfers are academics related - or maybe that's my hope.

One question I have about the WIAC, however, is why does it seem that there usually seems to be one dominant program for a period of time, then another, then another. I would expect to see more parity at most times. I'm not sure there is an answer, just curious. The best I can come up with is changes in coaching staffs. I don't know if there is any correlation, for example, with UW Lacrosse tailing off, and a changs in staff. I'll let those with more inside info respond.

Good question- the baton does seem to get handed off.  I'm interested in other's input on this too. 

With UWW, it wasn't a coaching change behind the rise to the Stagg- as the first two occurred under Brez after he was there 20 something years.  I guess that was a case of finally getting that special group of athletes together.  There were very few IL kids on the 2005, 06 and 07 rosters (but there was a certain LB that is the son of a certain frequent poster). 
It is interesting to see the roster change between 2007 and 2008.  There is a significant increase in IL kids after the 2007 Stagg - which was the first victory.  From this limited data, it seems the order was:  1.  Established and talented coaching staff.  2.  Excellent facilities.  3.  Special group of athletes.  4.  Success breeding success.  5.  Championship.  6.  Influx of even more talented players from IL (and some other states).  7.  Additional championships and success continues to breed success.   

The other program with national championships is La Crosse.  One similarity they have to UWW is proximity to another state. I don't know the makeup of the teams in their champioship days- but they always seemed to get the big kids and a lot of talent. Did MN kids play a big role in their success?  I think their drop off is in direct correlation to UWW's rise. 

Back in the day, River Falls was very good while running the triple option, making them unique and hard to beat for quite a while.     

[cludad]

You want handicap, the sciac wont let the coaches have face to face contact with recruits only phone and mail. My son sort of blew off the calls thinking they werent that interested.We finally visited the campus after getting a financial package ,the coach got wind he was coming and called my son wanting to meet him personally.The rest is history loves Clu and the coach and dad couldnt be happier.I do think the sciac could really improve itself if this rule was no more.(we didnt find out about this rule till a year later).