MLB Topics

[Bombers798891]

Bombers, there are undoubtedly countless players who MIGHT have made the HoF if PERFECTLY healthy.  I'm focused on players whose careers were totally derailed by injury.  Even HoF players COULD have been better - IMO Mickey Mantle would probably have been the GOAT if not for leg injuries and his lack of training.  (His male ancestors all died young, so he never expected to live past 40 or 50, so he partied; I've seen several sources say he was THE fastest runner in MLB when he started - combine that with his power and you have GOAT.)

Your guys all had some bad breaks, but in terms of MY criteria (seemingly HoF careers totally demolished by bad luck), I'm sticking with Fidrych, Score, Bostock, Conigliaro, and (now) Wood.

Brandon Webb was a three time all-star who won a Cy Young and was runner up twice, and who never threw a single pitch in his 30s.

Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs by 27, missed his entire age 32 season, and was done with before turning 34.

In what way were they less qualified than Kerry Wood?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Bombers, there are undoubtedly countless players who MIGHT have made the HoF if PERFECTLY healthy.  I'm focused on players whose careers were totally derailed by injury.  Even HoF players COULD have been better - IMO Mickey Mantle would probably have been the GOAT if not for leg injuries and his lack of training.  (His male ancestors all died young, so he never expected to live past 40 or 50, so he partied; I've seen several sources say he was THE fastest runner in MLB when he started - combine that with his power and you have GOAT.)

Your guys all had some bad breaks, but in terms of MY criteria (seemingly HoF careers totally demolished by bad luck), I'm sticking with Fidrych, Score, Bostock, Conigliaro, and (now) Wood.

Brandon Webb was a three time all-star who won a Cy Young and was runner up twice, and who never threw a single pitch in his 30s.

Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs by 27, missed his entire age 32 season, and was done with before turning 34.

In what way were they less qualified than Kerry Wood?

Um, in my ignorance of their situations?

Yeah, they appear to qualify.

[Bombers798891]

To clarify, I didn't mean to be snarky.

I think it sort of makes sense, but at the same time is often overlooked: One of the big reasons HOFers become HOFers are because they stay healthy. All Hall of Famers had Hall of Fame talent, but lots of people with Hall of Fame talent don't make the Hall of Fame (especially pitchers). To take other examples:

Saberhagen
Age 20-25: 178 starts, 92-61, 3.23 ERA, two Cy Youngs, WS MVP
Age 26-37: 193 starts, 76-55, 3.47 ERA

Eric Davis' 162 game averages for 1986-1987:
.286/.389/.560, 40 HR, 107 RBI, 80 SB

The thing that makes it hard to spot a guy like Davis and Saberhagen is that instead of having their careers literally ended by an injury, they just missed a ton of time in small increments. Davis, for example, never played in 140 games a season, and played in 100 in just 8 of his 17 seasons. After turning 25, Saberhagen pitched for another 11 years, but he never made a ton of starts in any of them. Mattingly continued to play half a dozen years after hurting his back, he just lost all his power, and with it any hope of going to the Hall.

We always think of the Conigliaro-type players because it's easy to remember, but we forget the guys for whom injuries had  more of a gradual, long term affect

[Mr. Ypsi]

Bombers, excellent points.  I'm likely to overlook the 'dinged enough to greatly impair, but still playing' types unless they are a player for the Tigers (or a former Tiger that I particularly liked).  I admit to being primarily a Tigers fan, not a fan of MLB in general.  So, yeah, the Fidrych, Bostock types stick in mind; the Saberhagen, Davis types get overlooked.  Only rarely is a player SO surpassing that they can be greatly impaired and still make the HoF (Mantle), or die tragically prematurely but go in anyway (Clemente - IIRC, didn't they waive the five-year waiting period, since his place was so obvious?  I still think Thurman Munson should be in, but I guess he needed another couple of good years, and his airplane death was only tragic, not heroic like Roberto's.)

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bonds and Clemens become eligible!

[Bombers798891]

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bonds and Clemens become eligible!

They've been eligible for four years. They are not going to be elected

[Mr. Ypsi]

Well, it happened again.   In the ninth inning of this afternoon's make-up game of Tigers @ Twins (rained out last night), a Twins' reliever threw a run-scoring wild pitch during an intentional walk!  (This one turned out not to matter since PH Victor Martinez put the next pitch over the wall - just turned his grand slam into a 3-run HR!)  I remain mystified how a professional pitcher (much less a MLBer) can throw a wild pitch during an intentional walk!

[Mr. Ypsi]

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bonds and Clemens become eligible!

They've been eligible for four years. They are not going to be elected

More evidence of how casually I follow MLB other than the Tigers (and how time gets distorted as one ages ).  I can't believe it has been NINE years since they went away!   Clemens I have no sympathy for, since there are multiple claims he 'juiced' his entire career.  Bonds is a somewhat different case, since it was quite obvious physically when he began.  I think he had probably ALREADY established HoF credentials while still clean, but he got greedy - a moral failing (so NO I would not vote for him).  IMO, Hank Aaron is still the career HR leader, and Roger Maris still the single-season champ (though with an asterisk IIRC that his 60th came after the 154th game, in which case he and the Babe are both champs of different length seasons).

[Jim Dixon]

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bonds and Clemens become eligible!

They've been eligible for four years. They are not going to be elected

More evidence of how casually I follow MLB other than the Tigers (and how time gets distorted as one ages ).  I can't believe it has been NINE years since they went away!   Clemens I have no sympathy for, since there are multiple claims he 'juiced' his entire career.  Bonds is a somewhat different case, since it was quite obvious physically when he began.  I think he had probably ALREADY established HoF credentials while still clean, but he got greedy - a moral failing (so NO I would not vote for him).  IMO, Hank Aaron is still the career HR leader, and Roger Maris still the single-season champ (though with an asterisk IIRC that his 60th came after the 154th game, in which case he and the Babe are both champs of different length seasons).

How quickly we get off topic.  Are we going to remove Ty Cobb because he was not nice (well just plain mean) - a moral failing as well.  Put as many asterisks you want but the records are what they are.  I do not condemn a player who in response to a big contract, wants to be better to justify the big bucks.  Nor a player that uses steroids to recover quickly from an injury to get back asap.  I doubt that Big Poppi will find it a difficult path to the HoF despite his positive drug test where Arod will likely be blackballed without one.

A player on the juice could have the same effect on his stats as the dead ball era had on a players numbers.  Much as I would not want it to be part of the game, it was and should not be a reason to keep a player out that should be in the Hall.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Jose Fernandez died yesterday at age 24 in a boating accident.  He was NL ROY in 2013, and already a two-time all-star (basically losing 2014-15 to Tommie John surgery).   Another addition to the list of potential HoFers?   (I didn't follow his career enough to have any idea of his potential, but this year he broke the Marlins' all-time record for Ks in a season [and led MLB in Ks per 9 innings].)

Sounds like a candidate to me, the more I read.  To add to the tragedy, among his survivors are his mother (whom he rescued when their boat fleeing Cuba capsized when he was 15), his wife and his unborn daughter.  RIP, Jose.

[Bombers798891]

How quickly we get off topic.  Are we going to remove Ty Cobb because he was not nice (well just plain mean) - a moral failing as well.  Put as many asterisks you want but the records are what they are.  I do not condemn a player who in response to a big contract, wants to be better to justify the big bucks.  Nor a player that uses steroids to recover quickly from an injury to get back asap.  I doubt that Big Poppi will find it a difficult path to the HoF despite his positive drug test where Arod will likely be blackballed without one.

A player on the juice could have the same effect on his stats as the dead ball era had on a players numbers.  Much as I would not want it to be part of the game, it was and should not be a reason to keep a player out that should be in the Hall.

The idea that Bonds' HR totals must be ignored, and Babe Ruth's—who only completed against white players—were taken at face value half a century is pure lunacy

[Mr. Ypsi]

How quickly we get off topic.  Are we going to remove Ty Cobb because he was not nice (well just plain mean) - a moral failing as well.  Put as many asterisks you want but the records are what they are.  I do not condemn a player who in response to a big contract, wants to be better to justify the big bucks.  Nor a player that uses steroids to recover quickly from an injury to get back asap.  I doubt that Big Poppi will find it a difficult path to the HoF despite his positive drug test where Arod will likely be blackballed without one.

A player on the juice could have the same effect on his stats as the dead ball era had on a players numbers.  Much as I would not want it to be part of the game, it was and should not be a reason to keep a player out that should be in the Hall.

The idea that Bonds' HR totals must be ignored, and Babe Ruth's—who only completed against white players—were taken at face value half a century is pure lunacy

There is a major difference: none of Babe Ruth's opponents played against black players either (and, in fact, based on his looks, some people speculated that the Babe had some 'Negro' ancestry!)  He was not responsible for the racism of his era.  Bonds on the other hand did not play against ALL juicers!  Perhaps I'm naive, but I doubt that even at the worst of the steroid era any more than 25-30% of players were juicing.  Playing in an all-white league was an unchosen 'fact of life'; 'juicing' was a deliberate choice to cheat.

ANY comparisons across eras is fraught with problems.  But since the HoF tries to lump together the greatest across eras, let's at least TRY to weed out the deliberate cheaters. 

IMO, Shoeless Joe Jackson should NOT be barred - his stats in the WS clearly show he was not a part of the conspiracy by the 'Black Sox', and some evidence even suggests he tried to warn owner Comiskey about the plot, but he was barred for life (during his prime) by Kenesaw Mountain Landis (a major participant in the "Red Scare' hysteria of the times).  Pete Rose is an iffier case: so far as I know, there is no evidence he ever bet against his team (which IMO would be disqualifying), but even betting for his team only some of the time could effect line-ups and pitching decisions.  I think the lifetime ban was more a reaction to his multi-year lying to investigators.  A close call, but I'd probably vote FOR him.

Unless there is clear legitimate medical reason for steroid use, I have very little sympathy for PED users.  It seems pretty clear that Barry Bonds' PED use was solely to 'game the system'.  After what was probably already a HoF career, he got greedy and broke (in every sense of the term ) all-time HR records.  I was a big fan of Bobby Bonds; I have ZERO sympathy for Barry Bonds.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

On Jose Fernandez..could have been. Fantastic young pitcher. So sad what happened. Probably no one ever wanted to be a MLB player more.

The tragedy of Barry Bonds is that he was a hall of fame player BEFORE the steroids. AFTER them, I don't think he can be.

[cubs]

Not sure all of those apply, but Donny Baseball certainly does. Guy still hit even when he had to hit with all arms.

One that I'd go with and I think be able to defend convincingly is Kerry Wood. Was the best pitcher in the NL as a rookie at 21. Very few guys at any age ever led their league in both hits/9 and K/9 in the same season. His rookie year K/9 is the 3rd highest ever, behind seasons authored by a couple of guys named Pedro and Randy.

You can now unfortunately add Jose Fernandez in there now as well....  Some mind-boggling stats when you look at where Fernandez sits among the all time best:

-Here's a complete list of starters since 1901 to finish their career with a 150 ERA+:  Pedro Martinez and Jose Fernandez

-Here's a list of starters with a .667 win% four times thru age 23:  Tommy Bond (1876-'79,) Dwight Gooden and Jose Fernandez

-Fernandez had a career 2.43 FIP, 11.2 SO/9, and an ERA+ of 150.  He's the only player in MLB history to do that in his career.

-Fernandez average a 61.9 game score per start.  Only Kershaw, Koufax, and Walter Johnson topped that average.

[Bombers798891]

There is a major difference: none of Babe Ruth's opponents played against black players either (and, in fact, based on his looks, some people speculated that the Babe had some 'Negro' ancestry!)  He was not responsible for the racism of his era.  Bonds on the other hand did not play against ALL juicers!  Perhaps I'm naive, but I doubt that even at the worst of the steroid era any more than 25-30% of players were juicing.  Playing in an all-white league was an unchosen 'fact of life'; 'juicing' was a deliberate choice to cheat.

The point is, Ruth's competition was undeniably weaker compared to the players who played post-integration, yet no one seemed in a hurry to talk about how his numbers were somehow less than official or magical. The idea that we have to ignore steroid numbers, but that Ruth's numbers in a white-only league were sacred is laughable.

[Mr. Ypsi]

There is a major difference: none of Babe Ruth's opponents played against black players either (and, in fact, based on his looks, some people speculated that the Babe had some 'Negro' ancestry!)  He was not responsible for the racism of his era.  Bonds on the other hand did not play against ALL juicers!  Perhaps I'm naive, but I doubt that even at the worst of the steroid era any more than 25-30% of players were juicing.  Playing in an all-white league was an unchosen 'fact of life'; 'juicing' was a deliberate choice to cheat.

The point is, Ruth's competition was undeniably weaker compared to the players who played post-integration, yet no one seemed in a hurry to talk about how his numbers were somehow less than official or magical. The idea that we have to ignore steroid numbers, but that Ruth's numbers in a white-only league were sacred is laughable.

I quite agree that players before integration were playing in a different competitive environment than those after (with at least a two decade transition period while MLB became blacker and more Hispanic), but since the HoF TRIES to deal with the entire history of baseball and pick the greatest, I have no clue as to the solution.  I suppose we could just kick out everyone who played in 'whites only' baseball (since their stats are not 'real'), but that seems a bit drastic! )

The point I'm trying to make is that the players had no control over the integration of MLB (though BOO to those players who harassed Jackie Robinson and the other path-breakers, and a huge cheer for the player (Pee Wee Reese?) who threw his arms around Jackie when he was heckled in one park), but players did (and do) have a choice about CHEATING.  Comparing era's stats is nearly impossible since the game is always changing (the 'dead ball' era, integration, lowering the pitcher's mound, adding the DH, etc.), but one thing we can TRY to do is keeping CHEATERS out of the 'temple'.

So, yes, the stats from the 'whites only' days will have to count (for lack of an alternative reality); the stats from cheaters are IMO invalid and discarded.