MBB: Centennial Conference

[division3]

hi gabriel,
smalls is a great recruiter...seems to have many local kids from PA locked up pretty good.
one key difference about haverford and swat is that many kids can't get into the school based on academic qualifications. i feel that swat and haverford have it toughest in terms of recruiting, born out by generally inferior talent.
i am not taking anything away from smalls...he has built a fine program. my guess is many of his players couldn't get into swat or haverford,( though most of the schools in the conference are quite good.)

[Gabriel]

hi gabriel,
smalls is a great recruiter...seems to have many local kids from PA locked up pretty good.
one key difference about haverford and swat is that many kids can't get into the school based on academic qualifications. i feel that swat and haverford have it toughest in terms of recruiting, born out by generally inferior talent.
i am not taking anything away from smalls...he has built a fine program. my guess is many of his players couldn't get into swat or haverford,( though most of the schools in the conference are quite good.)

d3,

I understand the difficulty in getting into Swat and Haverford.  On the other hand their reputation attracts kids from other parts of the country.  Ian McCormick comes to mind as he was/is from Washington state, as I remember.  Does that even the playing field?

Don't underestimate the entrance requirements for Ursinus and some other schools in the CC.  Many players such as Ward, Noonan, Hilton, Janowski etc have the academic credentials to get into almost any school.  Most considered Ivy or Patriot League schools prior to choosing Ursinus.

Isn't Division III great!

[diplomaniac1]

My two cents on Coach Wimberly is that I am less than impressed. Other than his effective use of time-outs, I don't believe he lives up to his "NBA hype". While I acknowledge the academics standards at Swat and how they make recruiting difficult. I suspect that Swat's admissions standards are fairly similar to those at F&M. I would expect more .500 records and an occasional participant in the Conference tourney to validate his ability! I have voiced this assessment several time in past discussions of Centennial coaches. Sorry about that!

Eric

[Swat Fan #1]

Eric -  While I think F&M is one of the best DIII basketball teams I have ever seen (2008-09 Ithaca College team was as good I thought), Swarthmore is on a different planet to get in than F&M. The average SAT score is close to 2300 and almost 70% are either one or two in their high school class. Swarthmore, Amherst, and Williams are on par with Ivy League Colleges, sometime better. So, try to imagine the number of students with 2300 SAT scores. Now have them be at the top of their class. Next, have them be quality basketball players able to play at the DIII level. Finally, convince them to play at Swarthmore. That is what Coach Wimberly is up against every year recruiting.

On another note, I thought F&M had the best DIII defender I have ever seen. I can' think of his name but he was a forward. Just a tremendous lock-down defender and very physical but not dirty at all. At times when watching F&M, I thought I was watching a Mid-Major DI team. I really thought they were that good!

[Gabriel]

My two cents on Coach Wimberly is that I am less than impressed. Other than his effective use of time-outs, I don't believe he lives up to his "NBA hype". While I acknowledge the academics standards at Swat and how they make recruiting difficult. I suspect that Swat's admissions standards are fairly similar to those at F&M. I would expect more .500 records and an occasional participant in the Conference tourney to validate his ability! I have voiced this assessment several time in past discussions of Centennial coaches. Sorry about that!

Eric

Eric,

Coach Wimberly is an excellent "Xs & Os" coach who knows the game and gets his kids to play his way.  Ask the other coaches and I would guess they will tell you the same thing.  A good recruiter he is not.

[r.w. mcnickels]

i feel that swat and haverford have it toughest in terms of recruiting, born out by generally inferior talent.

Like Williams and Amherst---Swarthmore and Haverford attract recruits nationally and internationally. 

Specifically, does anyone know what has kept Swat and Haverford from placing the same emphasis on athletics that Amherst and Williams have clearly had over the years? Boards of Trustees? Presidents?

If Swat and Haverford had a similar recruiting philosophy to their NESCAC counterparts, I think it would benefit this conference—and the schools themselves—in numerous positive ways.

[cocoh2oDad]

Swat Dad, You must be looking to generate some chatter on here since the season is on hiatus.Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams on par, sometimes better then Ivy ??!!!!!! Ok I know it's April 1st but I'll play along. Please SD, ask any employer if he or she had the choice to take a grad from Harvard/Yale/ Cornell or Swarthmore?? Not even a fair horse race. Those schools  aren't even close to the academic clout or alumni networking Ivy schools provide. Next, you state watching F&M at times was like watching a Mid Major D1 Team this year?? Way to many F&M/ Centenial Conference games for you this year, I guess you didn't get a chance to watch much CBS on the weekends this winter or the tournament currently going on. Cornell vs. F&M? F&M vs Butler? Northern Iowa vs F&M? Don't think so. This being the first year I've experianced CC BALL full time, I've said to many I am very impressed with the level of play, talent and night in night out competition but I think you should stop drinking the Centennial Koolaid, could permanently alter sports objectivity and common sense. Enjoy the sun on this Fool's Day Swat Dad and other CC followers!

[Swat Fan #1]

Wow I know this is a basketball blog, but academics were brought up so I responded to it. Yes Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore are on the same level as the Ivies. You mention Cornell? Those three colleges are all much much harder to get in than Cornell. It isn't even close. Yale and Harvard are the top two and maybe a tad above the three but not much. Swarthmore puts a higher percentage in graduate schools than any college in the country. Go to any college ranking website and look it up. Swarthmore was named the best college for the money in the country in the 2009 US News and World Report and the #1 college on the Forbes college rankings a few years ago (above Harvard, Yale, and Cornell). I am not stating anything that isn't available out there for anyone to see. Go to Collegeboard.com (the SAT website) and research it yourself. As for why Swarthmore doesn't stress sports the way Williams and Amherst do is anyone's guess. Academics are #1, #2, #3  all the way to #99. Sports are #100 there. It doesn't matter as anyone who goes there knows that. Just to show you how hard it is to get into Swarthmore, a certain young man was rejected by Swarthmore a few years back. His name - Barak Obama. As for watching Mid-majors this year, I got a chance to watch Cornell in person many times this year. Yes F&M could have played some of the teams Cornell played this year. In fact, I watched Ithaca College (DIII) beat Cornell handily in a scrimmage last year. You enjoy the sun and weekend too!

[donho]

 Checking out the site and saw the conversation between Swat Dad and cocoh2oDad. I will say ,it depends on what is considered a Mid-Major. The past 2 years saw Randolph-Macon College beat both American U. and George-Mason, but take it on the chin at Richmond. I know it is not along time, but over the last 11 years I have seen a good amount of D-3 ball and now, this is MHO,The top D-3 schools are  able to play against mid-majors on any given night. Top D-3 being top ten to fifteen teams. This years Butler?? NO WAY!! Northern Iowa?? NO WAY!!  Colgate,Bucknell, Norfolk State, UMBC YES<YES<AND YES. Hope you all don't mind my two cents worth. Have a nice summer waiting for D-3 hoops to fire up again.

[kate]

Good morning, Swat Dad - in response to your previous post about the President, IMHO, Swarthmore's loss!

[Swat Fan #1]

Kate - I agree 100%  President Obama says he did not work as hard as he should have in high school. However, this proves two things. 1 - it is very very hard to get into Swarthmore and 2 - The admission process at any college will never be perfect. I heard today that Harvard sent out so many emails that most email systems viewed them as junk mail and automatically deleted them so many kids don't know their status at Harvard.

Donho - I have theory about why this is happening. Not sure if it is true, but just a hunch. 10-15 years ago, few kids played hoop outside of the season, and therefore, there were only a few standouts. Those kids played DI.  Now, with AAU so popular, there are many times more quality players. This has a trickle down effect that makes DIII basketball so much better. I think anyone of the CC's first teamers could play and contribute at those lower mid-majors.

[cocoh2oDad]

Swat Dad, Ten to 15 years ago and more like 30 years ago, my era, there wasn't much in AAU or camps during the off season for us to hone our skills at, but take my word for it, the talent was around, the media, internet, networking wasn't. We played our rear ends off at all of the playgrounds and adult  summer leagues everyday/night of the off season. Kick off was Easter weekend when I remember quite a few years we had to shovel the snow off the courts in order to play. Most of us growing up would play against all the older guys and adults and get a schooling. Best way in my books to learn the game and get better. We'd drive down to Philly, Easton, Scranton looking for pick up games at certain playgrounds we all knew were hot beds for great pick up ball. Playground/ pick up ball is long gone and all of us who played in that era reminisce over beers way to often about those lost times. I do agree we you that quite a few of the CC first teamers could contribute on the mid-major level especially after a year or two under their belt. But after seeing this first year and the academic benefits our son is reaping in the CC, something he would not have gotten at most D1, (except the Ivy), he is very happy, as are we, with his decision to go to the CC.

[division3]

swat dad...swat is a very good school, as we all know. to me , the discussion about whether it is as good or better than ivy is silly. not an important distinction. doesn't matter. not sure what you are getting at. also, i think you highly overate F&M...they are not that good when you look outside the conference... their record indicates domination in the conference but they were shaky fairly often. also, i don't think most CC first teamers could contribute in the Ivy's, let alone mid major. i think most, if not all, would ride the bench in the Ivy's.(I often disagree with your assessment of players.) milligan is the best defender on F&M, by the way.

gabriel, to me the recruiting in CC is not an even playing field as you suggest...look at the players and history of the programs. i would attribute the differences more to recruiting than coaching. and with all due respect, the standards to get into haverford and swat are quite different than ursinus, f&m etc. kids go to different schools because they are often just different kinds of kids (i don't think the kids looking at ursinus are looking at swat/haverford and vice versa) as well as different players and definitely in possession of different intellects/grades/SAT scores. mccormick was an exception, both in location and basketball. swat rarely gets a kid as good as him and rarely from the west coast.most kids in CC are from the east coast.

[BRCE4]

I agree with division 3 on the issue of CC players playing at mid majors. I think you underestimate the level of play in DI at every level. The Centennial is a terrific DIII conference but the players are at the level where they can play. I don't want to specifically criticize any individual players but size,quickness or one skill weakness is what separates them from the IVY. As to Swat's academics, there is little room for debate, year in and year out they are ranked in the top 5 nationally for liberal arts colleges. I think Swat is as highly valued as the IVY schools in academe but certainly not as valued by those outside of academe.

[Swat Fan #1]

DIII - not sure what you are getting at. I was responding to someone saying Swat's admission standards are the same as F&M's. They are not close. I ask you, what background do you have on judging college talent. I have coached for 24 years including high school and AAU that put several young men in college basketball. I coached a young man who is playing DI this year. Both of Swat's guards this year are much better than him. F&M has made it to the final four and final eight the last two years. How are they not a great DIII team? I have followed DIII for the last 28 years and have watched Ithaca College, Hamilton, Hobart, St. Lawrence, Clarkson and several other DIII teams. I think I have a pretty good grasp of DIII basketball. I said there are a few players capable of playing at the mid-major level, not all players in the league. Have a wonderful rest of this gorgeous weekend!