MBB: Centennial Conference

[Pat Coleman]

It is an improvement that more games count, but why not count all division 3 games.  If you look closely at the criteria for what counts as a regional game it make absolutely no sense at all.  Games 201 miles away in neighboring states do not count and games up to 3000 miles away can count.  The way the numbers work to determine the strength of schedule even make less sense.  If it made any sense at all to use the numbers the first place team in our region would not be the second place team in their own league with the first place team in that league not even ranked.  This happened in the first week of rankings.

Why not count all division 3 games?  

So you have two things going here:

1) There's an overriding Division III philosophy statement that regional competition is to be emphasized. That comes from the presidents on down. The coaches and fans agree with you, so there is a bit of a give-and-take battle going on. If you have been following D-III for more than a few years you probably remember that once upon a time only Mid-Atlantic Region teams counted as regional games for F&M. So F&M could play Mary Washington in-region but not Shenandoah, which is closer. It could play an AMCC team if it wanted but it had to make sure it got the right one, because some were in the Great Lakes. You'd end up having to drive past teams that were closer to get to some teams in your region.

Over time, there were additions made -- the 200-mile rule was added in order to make things make more sense -- you continue to get rewarded for playing teams in your area. Then the administrative regions were added, giving coaches even more flexibility in who they can schedule and still have it count toward the primary criteria. Now F&M can schedule anyone in the state of PA and anyone in the state of NY -- that may not sound like much but it actually encompasses about a quarter of Division III and adds maybe 50 teams to the slate of possible in-region opponents for F&M.

2) Maps have borders and borders divide things. Sometimes it doesn't make sense mathematically -- think of it this way from an F&M perspective. How come you can drive an hour or so one direction and be in Maryland, but drive maybe four hours in another direction and still be in Pennsylvania? So, yes, someone in Texas can have a regional game against someone in Washington state, but that's still only a quarter of Division III schools. They are vast distances, but each of those four administrative regions only covers a quarter of Division III. The American West is just huge, and there are a bunch of states with no Division III schools whatsoever -- Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico, Kansas, Oklahoma, North Dakota. And there's just one in Nebraska, one in South Dakota and one in Colorado.

If you drew a line from, say, Roanoke to Portland, Maine, you practically trip over D-III schools. But the rest of the country doesn't have as much D-III presence.

[F@M]

Do you have the 4 regions available to post?  I remember seeing that Delaware and Virginia were not together.  In fact I think I remember Virginia could play games in Florida and the Dominican Republic and not Delaware? I understand where the logic started and the idea of attempting to create an equal system.  However, it appears that they took a good idea too far and because of the unbalanced amount of division 3 teams throughout the country they continued to make more decisions based on the first idea to try to make an unbalanced map balanced.  Illinois and Michigan is another interesting one.  Look at the states they can play. 

A game is a game. 

Why are we relying on a numbers system that obviously does not work?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For geographic regions are fairly simple - I have at least two memorized:

Zone 1: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland.
Zone 2: Pennsylvania and New York

Can't remember the other zones except that Zone 4 is pretty much the western half of the US.

By the way, you are missing my other point... if you are talking about Wesley and Virginia Wesleyan for example (Virginia and Delaware), they are within 200 miles of one another... so it counts. Don't forget that 200 mile radius... it does come in handy for many teams like in Delaware and such.

And as long as regions are emphasized, presidents don't want monster travel expenses, etc., you are not going to get into a every-game-counts situation. There is also an underlying feeling that schools that can't afford huge trips across the country for games would then be at a disadvantage of others that do.

Finally... you mention the Dominican Republic... last I checked no game counts there as a regional game except if your opponent qualifies as a regional team. If F&M and York played in Phoenix, it would count as a regional game. But if F&M played Whitworth in Las Vegas... it wouldn't.

By the way, F&M is also hurting in the regional rankings because they play so many games at home. The SOS deemphasizes (sp?) those games with a 0.6 multiplier versus a 1.4 for away games. Just something to consider for a program that plays a large number of games at home each season (and they are not the only ones).

[Pat Coleman]

Do you have the 4 regions available to post?  I remember seeing that Delaware and Virginia were not together.  In fact I think I remember Virginia could play games in Florida and the Dominican Republic and not Delaware? I understand where the logic started and the idea of attempting to create an equal system.  However, it appears that they took a good idea too far and because of the unbalanced amount of division 3 teams throughout the country they continued to make more decisions based on the first idea to try to make an unbalanced map balanced.  Illinois and Michigan is another interesting one.  Look at the states they can play. 

A game is a game. 

Why are we relying on a numbers system that obviously does not work?

F@M -- it's in the FAQ, which is linked at the bottom of my post.

Again with the map, borders have to be drawn. Virginia is with West Virginia and Ohio and Georgia and the like. The line has to be drawn somewhere to maintain four equal regions.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Why are we relying on a numbers system that obviously does not work?

By the way... I take exception to this... I think it does work compared to the old days and the "old boys network". There was a time 8 teams from the Mid-Atlantic made the tournament no matter how bad teams 4-8 might actually be while leaving teams in very difficult regions out that should have been there. That wasn't fair either to the national tournament.

This isn't the ECAC's where teams just played in their region for a title. It is the NCAA's and they try and make the tournament as national as possible within a regional scope. It has come a long way from the mandate of x-number of teams from a region, no matter what, the QOWI, and nothing counting more then what was directly in your region.

It isn't perfect and we all know that... but is isn't like the system doesn't work. We have had far better inclusion of the top teams and far better competition to determine a national champion then say ten years ago.

And it isn't like the system is so secret coaches and schools don't know about it. We talk about it often on these boards and in articles and we all know the information is being conveyed by the NCAA and committees to everyone - including ourselves.

[F@M]

Region 1: Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont.

Region 2: New York, Pennsylvania.

Region 3: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia.

Region 4: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

Pat, 

Does it make sense that Michigan can play teams in Puerto Rico and not Illinois if they are more than 200miles away?  Illinois can play teams Hawaii, Alaska and California as regional games?   

As far as Wesley they can play teams in maine and 2 Loses against Christopher Newport 217 miles away in Virginia don't count?

The Index for home and away games and the numbers don't add up correct. 

[Pat Coleman]

Region 1: Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont.

Region 2: New York, Pennsylvania.

Region 3: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia.

Region 4: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

Pat,  

Does it make sense that Michigan can play teams in Puerto Rico and not Illinois if they are more than 200miles away?  Illinois can play teams Hawaii, Alaska and California as regional games?  

As far as Wesley they can play teams in maine and 2 Loses against Christopher Newport 217 miles away in Virginia don't count?

The Index for home and away games and the numbers don't add up correct.  

Yes.

It does.

Because each quadrant encompasses one-quarter of Division III. These are additions to the previous rules, so everything is a bonus.

Things have changed since, just to throw out a couple names at random, Tom Murphy and Glenn Robinson were running the show on the Division III national committee, F@M, but they haven't changed in more than four years, not in terms of regional games. Anything that was a regional game for F&M in 2006-07 is a regional game today (with the exception of a couple new schools coming in, like Penn State-Harrisburg or SUNY-Cobleskill or Morrisville State). Nobody at F&M should be surprised by what constitutes a regional game.

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2006/08/21/its-official-the-regions-expand/

Now, as to whether home/away should be reflected somewhere, I actually think they should be, so I guess we disagree there, too. I don't agree that it should be taken into account to the strength it is right now, but it should be a factor. There should be some incentive to getting out of your gym and playing. The Quality of Wins Index, and I may have to hold my nose while I say this, did do one thing right, in valuing away games more than home games.

[LustyLarryintheToilet]

hi f@m.  lets face it, the NCAA botches stuff up at the D1 level where there is over bilions of dollars at stake.  at the end of the day though, i think the week 2 regional ranking is a moot point in terms of F&M.  

looking at the NCAA selection gude page 16
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/champ_handbooks/basketball/2011/11_3_mbasketball.pdf

i dont think F&Ms current regional ranking is going to hurt it when being considered for the field (or for seeding).  theres a logjam of regional winning % from 4-9.  I dont think GM, or keystone or desales has built a better tourney resume than F&M, and honestly SMC might be in the same boat depending on what happens in their rematch with Wesley.  

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just remember F&M fans... that "what is a regional game and what isn't" is the exact same criteria that existed when F&M made it's run to the Final Four a few years back... it hasn't changed in maybe five years.

The SOS multiplier was added this year... but that wasn't a surprise either... the NABC Conference was the ones that asked for it to be included so coaches knew it was going to be a factor.

F&M has played a vast majority of their games at home this year - like every other year - and they have lost important games and others they should not have lost on the road. Win against McDaniel or others and you wouldn't be complaining about sitting #9 in the regional rankings... you would be higher and your SOS probably wouldn't be as low, either.

[Reserved Seat]

If you just win, all the requirements don't matter.

[LustyLarryintheToilet]

My first question, and maybe Pat/Dave can answer, why is Ithaca considered an in region loss for F&M?  The school is out of region and is 235 miles away.  Are they incorrect or is there something i am missing?

One concept that always bothers me about the mainstream media, especially at the D1 level, is that of "bad losses."  When putting together a tournament field, you are not talking about picking the best team in the country (ie College football FBS).  You are talking about finding a 60+ team field of deserving entrants.  There are not 60 perfect teams in the country, and teams are allowed to lose games (especially on the road).  It's unfair to the McDaniels and Muhlenbergs of the world to say otherwise. 

I'd much rather have a team with quality wins over one with bad losses.  F&M's problem is bad luck, they lack quality regional wins because of an underwhelming conference, and both albright and wesley losing their respective opening round games during pre-Conference tournament season.  So you look thru the region: gwynedd mercy and keystone really havent beaten anyone in region either.  and desales and etown arent exactly showing a must-in resume.  i'm actually surprised scranton isnt in better shape in the rankings. 

[ronk]

 Ithaca is in-region for F@M by being in the same admin region(Pa./NY). That means anybody F@M plays that is in Pa. or NY is in-region.

[Pat Coleman]

My first question, and maybe Pat/Dave can answer, why is Ithaca considered an in region loss for F&M?  The school is out of region and is 235 miles away.  Are they incorrect or is there something i am missing?

Check the administrative regions F@M quotes in one of his posts from earlier Thursday.

[ronk]

F&Mers,
  Coach Robinson mentioned in his Hoopsville interview a January admit that is newly helping the team. Is this somebody who graduated early from high school(Dec), or couldn't get in September and had to wait for room in Jan, or some other program?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

One concept that always bothers me about the mainstream media, especially at the D1 level, is that of "bad losses."  When putting together a tournament field, you are not talking about picking the best team in the country (ie College football FBS).  You are talking about finding a 60+ team field of deserving entrants.  There are not 60 perfect teams in the country, and teams are allowed to lose games (especially on the road).  It's unfair to the McDaniels and Muhlenbergs of the world to say otherwise. 

I'd much rather have a team with quality wins over one with bad losses.  F&M's problem is bad luck, they lack quality regional wins because of an underwhelming conference, and both albright and wesley losing their respective opening round games during pre-Conference tournament season.  So you look thru the region: gwynedd mercy and keystone really havent beaten anyone in region either.  and desales and etown arent exactly showing a must-in resume.  i'm actually surprised scranton isnt in better shape in the rankings. 

There is such thing as a bad loss... which usually means there is no rhymn or reason a team lost that game. Case in point, F&M at McDaniel. There is no reason F&M should have lost that and being it was on the road it actually hurt their SOS. That would be considered a "bad" loss, IMHO.

I am not being unfair to McDaniel nor Muhlenberg... those are great wins for them,  but they are a combined 23-22 on the season and if you are a team that should be considered a national contender... and by your own submission the region and the conference are underwhelming... you have to win those games. You can't just throw away games and chalk it up to "no one is perfect."

Per your Wesley and Albright thought, you also can't count on teams to win their opening games in a four-team tournament as a way of boosting your OWP, OOWP, SOS, and in-region record. If you need that game, book it as the first game and worry about the second game later.

And for Scranton... three losses on the road in conference action is not only going to hurt your record in region... it is going to hurt your SOS... and it's going to hurt your chances at a Pool C bid. Scranton has certainly won a lot of games at home... but the SOS emphasizes games on the road. Neither Scranton or F&M have proven they can win road games, especially in conference, with any sort of consistency. With an SOS index, you have to prove you can win outside of your own gym.