BB: Regionals (West) 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011

[TexasBB]

Hendrix wins the SCAC in a huge surprise. Millsaps goes 0-2.  Hendrix is listed as a West Region team so they get the automatic SCAC Pool A.  Millsaps lost to Centre and Hendrix. Trinity lost twice to Hendrix a team that has but a .500 record. This cannot help Millsaps with a Pool C bid. Going into the weekend they were the #1 team in the South Region. Will be real interesting to see how things play out this weekend with the ASC tournament. Many of the ASC teams beat the SCAC finalists Trinity and Hendrix.

[BigPoppa]

Hendrix could end up getting shipped to another region though. I can see them falling into the Central regional to make up for a weak groups of POOL C teams in the region.

[Ralph Turner]

Hendrix could end up getting shipped to another region though. I can see them falling into the Central regional to make up for a weak groups of POOL C teams in the region.

I think that Linfield is a 6-team playoff.

NWC Pool A     (bussed to Linfield)
PP                   (plane flight everywhere)
Chapman        (plane flight everywhere)
ASC Pool A 
Hendrix           (plane flight everywhere)
Pool C

Everyone else in the rest of the country can be bussed to a site.

[TexasBB]

Ralph,

I see you have listed Chapman in the West Regional. So you think they get a Pool B bid despite their very mediocre record?  The Pool B group must be real weak, which means more deserving Pool C only candidates will be left home.

[Jack Parkman]

Ralph,

I see you have listed Chapman in the West Regional. So you think they get a Pool B bid despite their very mediocre record?  The Pool B group must be real weak, which means more deserving Pool C only candidates will be left home.

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Pool B seems to be pretty weak, which will help a team like Chapman extend it's season.  Chapman's In-region record is 17-11 which is nowhere near what some of the other teams have, but they have the luxury of being a Pool B team.

[Ralph Turner]

I am very sympathetic to the teams in Pool B.  They get access to the tourney at a ratio that comparable to the Pool A conferences.  This season, the access ratio for Pool B schools is 1 bid for every 8.65 schools.  Therefore, if your conference is only a 7-team or 8-team conference, then it is easier to get your Pool A bid than the Pool B's to earn it.

I will not knock Chapman.  They will go anywhere to play someone.  They swept McMurry this year in three games in Abilene.  No one else swept a three-game series on McMurry this season.

The 13 "do-overs" that we call Pool C did not get it done on the field the first time around.

We should be grateful to the current March Madness TV contract that allowed D-III to increase the Pool C bids from 5 to 13 this year in 2006.

I also like to remind my ASC friends that the way that we could double our chances at getting a Pool A bid is for the ASC to split into 2 conferences, but that is another topic.

[LA Mike]

This is a first inning post -- Ralph good posts all year !!

The Chapman era needs to take a break.  PP swept them, Redlands split with them, they split with Cal. St. East bay, split with Cal. St. San Marcos & Kean, beat Oxy once and lost 2 of 3 to Cal Lu and La Verne-early season games.   I know that Chapman swept McMurry, but a lot of other teams beat them also.  [Similar to everyone that plays Menlo and sweeps them-- (Redlands and Chapman)]

If there is the chance to take Hendrix out of the west "just to balance other regions", could we bring in another team to the West ??

The discussions about the second team from SCIAC should be Cal Lu.  They have been consistent all year, beating the teams they should beat (splitting some times) and were ranked all season.  Redlands lost 2 of 3 to Cal Lu, split with Whittier, split with CSEastBay, swept La Verne/Oxy/CalTech.

What you call Pool C "do-overs" are a method for the strong conferences to get the proper teams a place to play in May.  If you look at the list of teams that have automatic berths so far --- 5 are NR-RV, 3 are not even on the list and only the SCIAC and NWC have ranked teams (GF &PacLu)--so far.   There are some strong teams that  will have to wait for next year,  but the teams that can play, should be supported in the selection process.  We have this final games and conference tournaments this week and weekend -- one of those "patience things" we have to deal with in this hypothetical season of D3BB.

Back to the Bullpen for now--- Looking forward to Linfield Regional.
LA Mike

[BigPoppa]

This is a first inning post -- Ralph good posts all year !!

The Chapman era needs to take a break.  PP swept them, Redlands split with them, they split with Cal. St. East bay, split with Cal. St. San Marcos & Kean, beat Oxy once and lost 2 of 3 to Cal Lu and La Verne-early season games.   I know that Chapman swept McMurry, but a lot of other teams beat them also.  [Similar to everyone that plays Menlo and sweeps them-- (Redlands and Chapman)]

If there is the chance to take Hendrix out of the west "just to balance other regions", could we bring in another team to the West ??

The discussions about the second team from SCIAC should be Cal Lu.  They have been consistent all year, beating the teams they should beat (splitting some times) and were ranked all season.  Redlands lost 2 of 3 to Cal Lu, split with Whittier, split with CSEastBay, swept La Verne/Oxy/CalTech.

What you call Pool C "do-overs" are a method for the strong conferences to get the proper teams a place to play in May.  If you look at the list of teams that have automatic berths so far --- 5 are NR-RV, 3 are not even on the list and only the SCIAC and NWC have ranked teams (GF &PacLu)--so far.   There are some strong teams that  will have to wait for next year,  but the teams that can play, should be supported in the selection process.  We have this final games and conference tournaments this week and weekend -- one of those "patience things" we have to deal with in this hypothetical season of D3BB.

Back to the Bullpen for now--- Looking forward to Linfield Regional.
LA Mike

The "Proper" team won the Pool A bids... every Pool C team had a chance to earn that same bid. It was decided on the field, where it should be. By not winning a Pool A bid, teams leave it to others to decide their fates, which is ALWAYS a dangerous scenario. Either way, Pool C hopefuls that are left our have no one to blame but themselves.

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks LA Mike!

I have been following D3 really closely now for about 5-6 years.   Most fans do not realize how close the levels of play really are!  There must be 80 teams in D3 that are above the "mean".

In men's basketball this season, 2 Pool C teams made the Final Four.

That is why I have just resolved to back up in my mind to the fact that the playoffs begin in the conference tourneys.

Which team knows your weaknesses best?  Some team in your conference.

Which team really wants to pay you back for that game that they lost a season ago?  Some team in your conference!

How easy is it for a team to win the regular season and get a worrisome "pseudo-confidence" in their #1 seed, only to lose in the Conference Tourney?  to go 2 and barbecue?

At 13 Pool C bids because of the "1 playoff bid for every 6.5 teams", we are now at the point that the really really good Pool C teams will get in, anyway.  I do not believe that that was the case at the previous bid allocation ratio of "1 playoff bid for every 7.5 teams".

Those last few bids are really close. Conversely, if you are sitting at home, there are 1-2 games that you lost that you should not have lost that are the ones that are keeping you home.

[sagehenalum47]

This is a first inning post -- Ralph good posts all year !!

The Chapman era needs to take a break.  PP swept them, Redlands split with them, they split with Cal. St. East bay, split with Cal. St. San Marcos & Kean, beat Oxy once and lost 2 of 3 to Cal Lu and La Verne-early season games.   I know that Chapman swept McMurry, but a lot of other teams beat them also.  [Similar to everyone that plays Menlo and sweeps them-- (Redlands and Chapman)]

If there is the chance to take Hendrix out of the west "just to balance other regions", could we bring in another team to the West ??

The discussions about the second team from SCIAC should be Cal Lu.  They have been consistent all year, beating the teams they should beat (splitting some times) and were ranked all season.  Redlands lost 2 of 3 to Cal Lu, split with Whittier, split with CSEastBay, swept La Verne/Oxy/CalTech.

What you call Pool C "do-overs" are a method for the strong conferences to get the proper teams a place to play in May.  If you look at the list of teams that have automatic berths so far --- 5 are NR-RV, 3 are not even on the list and only the SCIAC and NWC have ranked teams (GF &PacLu)--so far.   There are some strong teams that  will have to wait for next year,  but the teams that can play, should be supported in the selection process.  We have this final games and conference tournaments this week and weekend -- one of those "patience things" we have to deal with in this hypothetical season of D3BB.

Back to the Bullpen for now--- Looking forward to Linfield Regional.
LA Mike

The "Proper" team won the Pool A bids... every Pool C team had a chance to earn that same bid. It was decided on the field, where it should be. By not winning a Pool A bid, teams leave it to others to decide their fates, which is ALWAYS a dangerous scenario. Either way, Pool C hopefuls that are left our have no one to blame but themselves.

Big poppa and ralph,
       I sort of see where you are coming from, and you guys keep using the same flawed argument. Yes, of course these teams "had their chance" to get a pool A bid and get in the tournament, and they screwed up. You can say the same thing about the mediocre pool B teams that get in who "had their chance" THE ENTIRE SEASON and lost 40% of their games. on any given day, a good pool C team such as millsaps or UTT can run into some bad luck- a bad bounce, or just hitting everything right at people, etc. why do you think its more fair to judge a team that has been consistently good the entire year and lost in a 2 game conference tournament vs. a team that had a chance to get it done ALL year and failed. Look at chapman. they failed against la verne. against whittier 2/3. against PP 3/3. against cal lu 1/2. I can go on. why are their consistent screw ups less valuable that 1 small screw up in a flukey conference tourney. Doesn't make sense. If chapman or another independent has a resume that is CLOSE to a pool C, they should get in. if its not in the same ballpark, they shouldnt.
      I remember way back from my statistics classes that your sampling error, that is, the chance that a particular team does not play indicative of how they actually play, will rise as sample size increases. Sample size of a conference tournament = 2-4 games. Sample size of a season = 40 games. you tell me which is more subject to error.

[Ralph Turner]

The Pool System that the NCAA has used in the last decade was due to the inequities that the members saw in the other system that followed the "only the best get it in" premise.  Pool B comprised of the all of the schools that don't meet the minimum definition of a full Pool A conference (7 teams).  Chapman and the other teams in Pool B are treated a one big conference with the mathematically proportional number of bids (1:8.65  for the 52 Pool B schools or 6 bids.)  I cannot think of a single Pool B school in the last 4 years that has been worse than worst Pool A bid.  What has happened is that all of the poor Pool B teams have gone into conferneces to gain access for themselves.  (Yeah, there are some lousy Pool A bids given, but those players won their conference.  That is purpose of the student-athlete experience in D-III.    )

I recall earlier in this decade the joy on the SCIAC football boards when PP returned to the SCIAC in football, and the SCIAC moved from an isolated collection of schools to a conference that is on the football map, every playoff season, by virtue of its Pool A bid.

The effect that the Pool system has had is to move schools into conferences.  With access into the playoffs as one of the goals of conference participation, then schools have added sports when there was sufficient interest in a sport.  As Division III looks at its management of the student-athlete experience, I don't think that they will abandon the conference-based format anytime soon.

The SCIAC has said that it likes the quality of the way that it determines its Pool A bid.  They are one of the 4 conferences that does not have a post-season tourney where the other schools might get a chance to knock the regular season champion out of its anticipated Pool A bid.

What the conference format will do allow the NCAA some control over growth and its membership.

As for Pool B, I refer you to the Pool B boards for discussions about Pool B.   

[BigPoppa]

Regardless of the valiudity of the argument, the rules are the rules and everyone knows them heading into the season.

[TexasBB]

As Ralph has repeatedly pointed out big confernces like the ASC get shortchanged under the current system. With the ASC east - west there are a total of 15 teams with only 1 Pool A guarantee. With a confernce of this size and an average of 1 team per 6.5 schools getting a bid the ASC should always have at least 2 teams getting bids. But last year there was only 1 and it could happen again this year. That is a problem for the ASC members. The powers that be may not want to go with two confernces since alot of the members do not participate in all sports. For example in Football there are only 8 or 9 total teams that play that sport. I think that an exception for large confernces making them eligible for 2 Pool A bids might be the way to go.

[DIIIBASEBALLFAN]

Crystal Ball Time

1) Pomona
2) George Fox
3) Pacific Lutheran
4) Hendrix
5) ASC Tourney Champ
6) ??

[BigPoppa]

Not sure what the rankings will look like, but this is what Isee the West Regioanl looking like right now:

1. Pomona-Pitzer
2. UTT
3. Pacific Lutheran
4. George Fox
5. Chapman
6/7. Texas Lutheran/Hendrix (one gets shipped to the Central or Midwest)