Conference changes

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I don't know what the situation was with Midwestern. 5 of the 7 players from this past season played in the matchup the previous year. I do know they existed at some point and that not only did they play Bluffton this past season under mysterious circumstances, but they played the year before and the one before that, and the one before that, as well as the one before that. 5 straight years and 5 wins for the Beavers. Plus another meeting a couple years before that. Bluffton has also had many meetings with Ohio St-Lima which does still exist but isn't a member of any organizations other than a conference for Ohio regional campuses. The good news is that over the years Bluffton have reduced the number of non-D3 teams on their schedule with the Midwestern game being the only one on the schedule this past season.

Perhaps there was some contract between the schools that forced them to field a team (like the famous Georgia Tech-Cumberland football game a century ago)?

[Greek Tragedy]

Just moving this forward. I suppose we need to add York's move and SNC move in here.


Provisional Pipeline for 2018-2019
First year full members: Alfred State, Illinois Tech, Iowa Wesleyan, McMurry (reclassifying)
*4th year provisional members: Belhaven
*3rd year provisional members: none
2nd year provisional members: Brevard, Dean, Pfeiffer
1st year provisional members: SUNY-Delhi, Johnson and Wales (Col.)
Exploratory: Pratt, University of St Thomas (TX), Mississippi University for Women.
*Games against Year 3 and 4 provisional members count the same as games against full-members for regional-ranking and tournament selection purposes

Conference Changes Starting in 2019-2020
Alfred State leaves the ACAA for the AMCC
Benedictine leaves D3 for D2
Frostburg State leaves D3 for D2
Manhattanville leaves the MACF for the SKY
New Rochelle (IND) closes
Newbury (NECC) closes
Penn State-Harrisburg leaves the CAC for a return to the NEAC
Southern Vermont (NECC) closes
Staten Island leaves D3 for D2
Stevens leaves the E8 for the MACF
St. Elizabeth leaves the NEAC for the CSAC
SUNY-Delhi joins the NAC
Texas-Tyler leaves D3 for D2
Thomas More possibly leaves D3 for the NAIA

Provisional Pipeline for 2019-2020
First year full members: (presume Belhaven)
*4th year provisional members: (presume none)
*3rd year provisional members:  (presume Brevard, Dean, Pfeiffer)
2nd year provisional members: (presume SUNY-Delhi, Johnson and Wales (Col.))
1st year provisional members: Pratt, University of St Thomas (TX), Mississippi University for Women.
Exploratory: Bob Jones, Lindenwood-Belleville, Warren Wilson
*Games against Year 3 and 4 provisional members count the same as games against full-members for regional-ranking and tournament selection purposes

Conference Changes Starting in 2020-2021
Keuka leaves the NEAC for the E8

[Ralph Turner]

For 2019-2020, we are down 7 (3 going to D2; 3 closing their doors and 1 to the NAIA) and up 1 new member for a net of -6.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Just since my name came up.  I did do some basic research on this.  I do generally agree with hopefan's statement of facts.  I wouldn't, at this point, characterize it as "scamming," because we just don't know what's gone on behind the scenes.  I would say perhaps the public presentation is not as clear as it could be, for sure.  Ultimately we couldn't write anything, because there's just not confirmation of the whole picture.  Just because I believe the narrative to be true, that's a long way from being able to write something publicly that alleges deceit.

Pat's been doing this a long time; much less for me.  Even in that short time, though, I'm amazed at the number of things we "know" vs the number of things that can be published.  That's also the line we have to walk when participating on the message boards - official representatives of the site have to have a different approach.

I will say, we do need to remember that many d3 schools lack (often for good reason) the kind of infrastructure and expertise we're used to seeing from the top programs we discuss often.  You just can't hold every school to the same standard you might for a team in the WIAC or NESCAC.  It's a pretty great disparity.

[WUPHF]

I will say, we do need to remember that many d3 schools lack (often for good reason) the kind of infrastructure and expertise we're used to seeing from the top programs we discuss often. 

Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday when thinking about the new Blackburn hire.

The SID is also the head men's baseball coach.  The Men's Basketball coach is also the cross country coach.  They run a lean operation for sure.

[Gregory Sager]

Just since my name came up.  I did do some basic research on this.  I do generally agree with hopefan's statement of facts.  I wouldn't, at this point, characterize it as "scamming," because we just don't know what's gone on behind the scenes.  I would say perhaps the public presentation is not as clear as it could be, for sure.  Ultimately we couldn't write anything, because there's just not confirmation of the whole picture.  Just because I believe the narrative to be true, that's a long way from being able to write something publicly that alleges deceit.

Pat's been doing this a long time; much less for me.  Even in that short time, though, I'm amazed at the number of things we "know" vs the number of things that can be published.  That's also the line we have to walk when participating on the message boards - official representatives of the site have to have a different approach.

I will say, we do need to remember that many d3 schools lack (often for good reason) the kind of infrastructure and expertise we're used to seeing from the top programs we discuss often.  You just can't hold every school to the same standard you might for a team in the WIAC or NESCAC.  It's a pretty great disparity.

Well said, Ryan.

I will say, we do need to remember that many d3 schools lack (often for good reason) the kind of infrastructure and expertise we're used to seeing from the top programs we discuss often. 

Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday when thinking about the new Blackburn hire.

The SID is also the head men's baseball coach.  The Men's Basketball coach is also the cross country coach.  They run a lean operation for sure.

There was a time not that many years ago when this was the norm throughout D3 and not the dwindling exception. Another D3 commonplace that's become an endangered species is the athletic director who also coaches a sport. Most D3 schools have beefed up their athletic department personnel to cut down drastically on dual responsibiliites in which a coach is called upon to also hold a non-coaching role that is considered to be a full-time job elsewhere in the division. (Lots of schools still double up on coaching responsibilities, but nowadays it's more often in situations that make professional sense, such as the men's golf coach also being the women's golf coach, the men's tennis coach also being the women's tennis coach, etc.)

How soon we forget!

[WUPHF]

Lately I have been reading old student newspapers and yearbooks and such.  It is interesting because the further you go back, the more likely it is that everyone involved played more than one role including the players.

I knew Harry Keough before he passed.  He won five national championships at Saint Louis University even though he never worked full-time.  His day job was at the post office.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I will say, we do need to remember that many d3 schools lack (often for good reason) the kind of infrastructure and expertise we're used to seeing from the top programs we discuss often. 

Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday when thinking about the new Blackburn hire.

The SID is also the head men's baseball coach.  The Men's Basketball coach is also the cross country coach.  They run a lean operation for sure.

I know, when I was a student, our dept didn't even have an SID and then it was essentially a student intern for a number of years, until they hired someone (one of the interns, I think), full time. ENC has gone to utilizing grad assistants for most entry-level jobs across campus, including many of the assistant coaches.  Trading master's degrees for work seems to be a decent model for jobs most people will only keep for a year or two anyway.  It seems to be how a small school makes do on a very limited budget.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For the record since I was thrown under the bus in this one ... I did a lot of legwork behind the scenes, hopefan, but I didn't get the same conclusion you did. I talked to several coaches about the whereabouts of Midwestern and talked to those scheduled to play them. I asked specifically if one school felt they were "scammed" and while they were disappointed they did not feel that way. They also agreed to contact me should there be a bigger issue at play, if the team was a scam or some kind, or whatnot. They didn't get back to me in the two weeks leading up to the games, they did not contact me after the games. They also didn't talk to me about it when I talked to them one-on-one at later times both on the phone and in person. I even reached out one more time ahead of the game (as they would have been scouting for the tournament) and they didn't feel it necessary to cry foul and say there was a scam here. That speaks volumes to me. (Side note: while disappointed, many admitted, and I think it holds true for all involved, it was a game for their team and they weren't the kind of team that needed to worry about post-season play and such.)

In other words ... they didn't feel the same way you did.

Yes, we all admitted the schedule felt weird, but I did NOT get the sense that a school was lying, scamming others, or something worse. If I felt something major was wrong, I would have said something or we would have reported it. However, it fell well short of that bar.

I am sorry you didn't feel I "backed you up," but that isn't my role in this. I also felt the tactics being taken were a line too far. The school asked you not to keep hounding them about it and told you the team existed and the games were legit. We found nothing to dispute that. In private conversations you have now made public, I told you I felt you were going too far in your handling of it. At some point, we have to take the information at face value until something else proves otherwise. You had a narrative that certainly seemed to have some interesting facts behind it, but that even Ryan contends didn't tell the entire story. I felt the same way and I am not going to chase things just because you didn't like it.

I chase a lot of things that don't seem to hold water. I don't report 75% of what I am told, found, or believe because they either don't hold up to scrutiny, there isn't a story, or I don't have enough information to stand behind anything other than speculation and rumor. This didn't feel worth making a larger deal out of because it just wasn't that big a deal in the long-run.

[Gregory Sager]

Lately I have been reading old student newspapers and yearbooks and such.  It is interesting because the further you go back, the more likely it is that everyone involved played more than one role including the players.

I knew Harry Keough before he passed.  He won five national championships at Saint Louis University even though he never worked full-time.  His day job was at the post office.

Ted Hedstrand, for whom North Park's football and soccer field is named, coached six different sports at North Park at one time or another. (He's also in the Illinois High School Coaches Association Hall of Fame for being the only head coach in state history to helm both an undefeated football season and an undefeated boys' basketball team in the same school year.) He was still coaching men's and women's cross-country and men's and women's track & field when I was a North Park student in the early '80s.

Pretty much every CCIW school has a Ted Hedstrand type who wore a whole bunch of different hats as a coach back in the day.

[WUPHF]

Ted Hedstrand, for whom North Park's football and soccer field is named, coached six different sports at North Park at one time or another. (He's also in the Illinois High School Coaches Association Hall of Fame for being the only head coach in state history to helm both an undefeated football season and an undefeated boys' basketball team in the same school year.) He was still coaching men's and women's cross-country and men's and women's track & field when I was a North Park student in the early '80s.

Six sports is incredible.

How did have time to watch all that film? 

By the way, as far as the players, the most I was able to find was one player who played four sports.  Football, basketball, tennis and wrestling I think.

[Gregory Sager]

I should've pointed out in the previous post that he didn't coach them all at the same time.

[hopefan]

Dave.... "we found nothing to dispute that"....that is so wrong...

I am not the bad guy here... I backed up everything, and your main writer found the same... I can understand not wanting to pursue it, that's your preference and right... what I don't understand is why you continue to make it look like it didn't happen (implying I'm the dummy to anyone who reads)... heck, just look at Bluffton's website...yes the score is there.. accompanied by the words "NCAA non-countable opponent"...   

enough....hopefan is back

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The school asked you not to keep hounding them about it and told you the team existed and the games were legit. We found nothing to dispute that.

This isn't entirely true; at least from my end.  I found absolutely zero evidence the basketball team represented an existing institution.  The organization that had, at one time, been Ohio Midwestern, had no knowledge of the team.  What was never nailed down was whether their opponents knew what was going on.  There are actually a lot of possibilities to explain; we just weren't able to track down anything.

It's an odd, odd situation, but, again, you have to be able to give these schools a break at some point.  They're just not operating on the level of the big boys, even in Division III.

[hopefan]

The school asked you not to keep hounding them about it and told you the team existed and the games were legit. We found nothing to dispute that.

This isn't entirely true; at least from my end.  I found absolutely zero evidence the basketball team represented an existing institution.  The organization that had, at one time, been Ohio Midwestern, had no knowledge of the team.  What was never nailed down was whether their opponents knew what was going on.  There are actually a lot of possibilities to explain; we just weren't able to track down anything.

It's an odd, odd situation, but, again, you have to be able to give these schools a break at some point.  They're just not operating on the level of the big boys, even in Division III.

Thank you