Conference changes

[thebear]

After looking at this thread, with SUNY Delhi transitioning to NCAA D-III, the SUNY Schools will have 16 schools located above the Westchester county line.  Would it make sense to split into a two conferences, to guarantee two auto bids, e.g. Larger Schools in 1, Smaller in the other or East/West to manage travel costs? Hockey would be a work around, but it already is.

[Gregory Sager]

There are some compelling reasons behind an eight-school SUNYAC West and an eight-school SUNYAC East, geography and weather being two of them. New York state is very large, and the roads upstate are always an adventure during winter. But there are a lot of other pro and con factors involved.

[thebear]

Yeah that 400 mile saturday night bus trip from Fredonia to Plattsburgh in a snowstorm is a real attraction...

[Ralph Turner]

There are some compelling reasons behind an eight-school SUNYAC West and an eight-school SUNYAC East, geography and weather being two of them. New York state is very large, and the roads upstate are always an adventure during winter. But there are a lot of other pro and con factors involved.

That shuffling would affect several conferences in the region.

Can someone propose the mission/vision issues that would align the like-minded institutions in those 2 conferences, and then propose the prospective memberships?

As I understand it, a conference needs 4 core members to maintain the AQ bid when affiliates take the conference up to the mandated 7 schools.

A conference also needs 1 sport in each season and 5 sports total.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

After looking at this thread, with SUNY Delhi transitioning to NCAA D-III, the SUNY Schools will have 16 schools located above the Westchester county line.  Would it make sense to split into a two conferences, to guarantee two auto bids, e.g. Larger Schools in 1, Smaller in the other or East/West to manage travel costs? Hockey would be a work around, but it already is.

Which teams are you going to tell have to lose their AQ opportunity and sit for two years with no automatic qualifier? The ideas are always great until schools have to face the reality of no AQ.

Forming a new conference is one thing. Those institutions are trying to do something different and understand the risks and losses when making that decision - usually forming with a whole new group. Splitting a conference to try and get a second AQ is a different conversation. They aren't forming something new to do something different in their minds. They are still partnered with their "friends" in the conference. They are simply split out and lose the AQ because of a decision to split. In the meantime, the other half of the conference still gets the AQ and have no risk in the move.

USA South is dealing with the same dilemma. There is a real chance the USA South splits into two conferences - but how to break that up and who to have "punished" for two years is a real challenge to overcome.

Imagine being in that AD or President's shoes when thinking about the idea of a split.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

After looking at this thread, with SUNY Delhi transitioning to NCAA D-III, the SUNY Schools will have 16 schools located above the Westchester county line.  Would it make sense to split into a two conferences, to guarantee two auto bids, e.g. Larger Schools in 1, Smaller in the other or East/West to manage travel costs? Hockey would be a work around, but it already is.

Which teams are you going to tell have to lose their AQ opportunity and sit for two years with no automatic qualifier? The ideas are always great until schools have to face the reality of no AQ.

Forming a new conference is one thing. Those institutions are trying to do something different and understand the risks and losses when making that decision - usually forming with a whole new group. Splitting a conference to try and get a second AQ is a different conversation. They aren't forming something new to do something different in their minds. They are still partnered with their "friends" in the conference. They are simply split out and lose the AQ because of a decision to split. In the meantime, the other half of the conference still gets the AQ and have no risk in the move.

USA South is dealing with the same dilemma. There is a real chance the USA South splits into two conferences - but how to break that up and who to have "punished" for two years is a real challenge to overcome.

Imagine being in that AD or President's shoes when thinking about the idea of a split.

If both conferences do it at the same time, it might mean an extra Pool B bid, which would help them out a little.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

After looking at this thread, with SUNY Delhi transitioning to NCAA D-III, the SUNY Schools will have 16 schools located above the Westchester county line.  Would it make sense to split into a two conferences, to guarantee two auto bids, e.g. Larger Schools in 1, Smaller in the other or East/West to manage travel costs? Hockey would be a work around, but it already is.

Which teams are you going to tell have to lose their AQ opportunity and sit for two years with no automatic qualifier? The ideas are always great until schools have to face the reality of no AQ.

Forming a new conference is one thing. Those institutions are trying to do something different and understand the risks and losses when making that decision - usually forming with a whole new group. Splitting a conference to try and get a second AQ is a different conversation. They aren't forming something new to do something different in their minds. They are still partnered with their "friends" in the conference. They are simply split out and lose the AQ because of a decision to split. In the meantime, the other half of the conference still gets the AQ and have no risk in the move.

USA South is dealing with the same dilemma. There is a real chance the USA South splits into two conferences - but how to break that up and who to have "punished" for two years is a real challenge to overcome.

Imagine being in that AD or President's shoes when thinking about the idea of a split.

If both conferences do it at the same time, it might mean an extra Pool B bid, which would help them out a little.

Well they would have to do it at the same time, but one of the two sides is maintaining the Pool A bid. And we saw this year in Marymount women that the Pool B bid isn't always a guarantee.

Every time I talk to schools debating moves like this (or those in the CAC who are about to fall back into Pool B making your thought more challenging for a split), the concern is about losing the AQ and not sure they can get in on Pool B considering the situations out there. That also becomes a recruiting conversation. "We have a conference championship, but for the next two years it doesn't get us into the tournament. Let me explain ..."

[thebear]

So what you are saying if a University system rounded up all their teams into two conferences, that they should be penalized.

SUNY will have 16 D-III teams.

WIAC has 8.

No one wants a 15 team unbalanced schedule.

The conferences that lose the random SUNY schools have more to lose.  [e.g. NEAC].

[Gregory Sager]

As interesting as I find the idea of all D3 State University of New York schools north of the Bronx coming together into two leagues under the aegis of the SUNYAC, since you've brought up the WIAC as a comparison it should be noted that the WIAC no longer contains all of the D3 members of the University of Wisconsin System. A few years ago, UW-Superior dropped out of the WIAC and joined the UMAC, reducing the WIAC from nine members to eight.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

So what you are saying if a University system rounded up all their teams into two conferences, that they should be penalized.

SUNY will have 16 D-III teams.

WIAC has 8.

No one wants a 15 team unbalanced schedule.

The conferences that lose the random SUNY schools have more to lose.  [e.g. NEAC].

I don't believe I am saying anything of the sort.

I am saying that a number of years ago the SUNYAC was formed. They have an AQ. If the idea is now to split it because of geography, travel, etc., who would anyone choose to have to go through the two years of no AQ?

By NCAA/DIII rule, the original conference gets to keep it's AQ as long as it still has a core membership. Consider that solved. The new conference would have to wait two years. What schools are you choosing (and telling) to sit those two years on the "outside" of the process?

That is why a lot of these conference scenarios end up unraveling. Sitting for two years without an AQ is a significant step and risk to take in all sports. Understanding the landscape and reality can be difficult when it comes to 28 championships in DIII.

So the idea to split is nice ... but it isn't that realistic is what I am actually saying.

BTW - why does no one want an unbalanced schedule? ODAC and others play with it and it seems to work quite nicely for a large conference. Why does no one want that as opposed to the SUNYAC structure right now?

[CNU85]

Any thoughts/rumors on what the CAC looks like down the road?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Any thoughts/rumors on what the CAC looks like down the road?

Simple - they will eventually slide into Pool B, but if they are smart they will NOT disband. It is more important to stay together as a conference even if they don't have AQs than to disband. If they stay together, they can be a home for schools that need one eventually (more on that in a moment), they keep a seat at the NCAA table (or they are small, separate entities without much say), and they provide a home for awards for each sport and trophies to compete for each season.

There are some players I think available if they want to take the leap, but it would be a significant shift in the region for a few schools. I know they have been courted and I know discussions have taken place. The question becomes if their situations as programs are as frustrating as I hear from time to time. I will not say who those programs are as I don't think at this juncture that is helpful.

There has also been rumor of a merger with the NJAC, but I don't see any chance that happens. Why would schools like Ramapo suddenly be interested in extending their travel for games down to CNU when they, at most, are headed to Rowan or Stockton?

The CAC will also keep an eye out to the south. What happens with the USA South could help them, though many in the USA South have no interest in being with CNU. That said, there are some schools that could come into DIII and that's why the CAC staying together would be helpful. It would provide a place for schools to join that is not the USA South (or whatever becomes of that conference in the future).

[Gregory Sager]

BTW - why does no one want an unbalanced schedule? ODAC and others play with it and it seems to work quite nicely for a large conference. Why does no one want that as opposed to the SUNYAC structure right now?

I must be misunderstanding what you mean by an "unbalanced schedule," because I can't believe that you're overlooking the merits of a double round-robin.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

BTW - why does no one want an unbalanced schedule? ODAC and others play with it and it seems to work quite nicely for a large conference. Why does no one want that as opposed to the SUNYAC structure right now?

I must be misunderstanding what you mean by an "unbalanced schedule," because I can't believe that you're overlooking the merits of a double round-robin.

I am not overlooking anything. I do feel that if a conference gets too large the double round-robin becomes detrimental in the large picture, but that doesn't mean I don't understand and appreciate why conferences like the ASC continue with the practice.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think that a double round-robin is ever detrimental. It's the fairest and best way to determine a conference champion, and conference play should always take primacy. Sure, we'd all like bigger non-conference databases for leagues such as the MIAC for regional ranking purposes, but the MIAC people feel that their league comes first. I respect that way of thinking.

I do understand the difficulty inherent for a very large league that has an odd number of teams, thereby precluding a clean separation into divisions, so I'm not dogmatic about this when it comes to the ODAC.