Conference changes

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

Curious ... you do understand that Pool B for the CAC is essentially an AQ, right? No, it isn't necessarily going to go to the conference tournament winner .. but it is one of the easiest ways into the NCAA tournament to be honest. The CAC will own the Pool B essentially.

As for CNU women ... of their out of conference schedule, I see a number of games against teams I would consider in their region.
- TCNJ
- Messiah
- NC Wesleyan
- Washington & Lee
- Bridgewater
- William Peace
- Meredith
- Stevenson
- Randolph-Macon
- Virginia Wesleyan

And they had some just outside what I would call their region ... Stevens and Susquehanna (at St. Mary's).

I don't think you can saddle their home schedule on teams not wanting to play them ... because their schedule clearly shows a number of teams not affraid to play them. Even welcoming them to tournaments. It just happens they had a number of games on the road. That could flip next year especially with home and home deals (six of their non-conference schedule they played last year - most of them at home, actually).

agree that the last 3 CAC teams left in '22 would be strong contenders for pool B bid.

I meant that teams do not want to play AT CNU.  The additional 2 tourneys they played this year compared to last year helps teams avoid home and home deals.  CNU played at Bridgewater last year and this year again (at their tourney).  The St Mary's tourney really baffles me.  went to a current CAC member tourney to play 2 different teams (Susquehanna could have been home and home deal).  Later CNU will go back to play at St Mary's.  Think CNU had to schedule these additional tourneys because coach had hard time getting more than 2 teams to do home and home deals (Randolph-Macon and Meredith).   2 of the tourneys were at Stevens & at Bridgewater avoids committment to future playing AT CNU.  tourney at Messiah I would consider a home and home deal.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

But you are taking one year and saying "no one wants to play at CNU."

First off, Ryan pointed out the men had a few tournaments, so there could have been some logistical problems for the women getting the home dates they wanted,.

Secondly, if this holds true next year then maybe you have something to consider. However, this is one year. There could have been a lot of factors in play as to why they didn't get as many home games as you (or they) wanted. I've seen teams have a lot of away games because scheduling can sometimes just be quirky. I also have seen teams that need games having to play the games on the road that first go-around because the opponent they want to play controls the terms. Not that uncommon.

You do realize the CAC had less members this year and that meant more non-conference games than in years past, right? Frostburg and PSU-Harrisburg left ahead of this season ... that is FOUR more games in the non-conference.

The SMC tournament makes sense to me ... both CAC teams need a few more games and the coaches know one another. They probably decided (a) they could do a tournament there and both teams get two more games with ease or (b) SMC needed another opponent and knew that CNU needed games and invited them to help each other out.

I've been pretty involved in scheduling tournament and been in the offices when coaches are trying to figure out scheduling (not to mention talking to coaches a lot of about scheduling on air, off air, and sitting at a bar even) ... I don't think we can just start making assumptions no one wants to play at CNU suddenly.

Furthermore, why would no one want to play at CNU as opposed to playing CNU in the first place. The argument you jumped off of was that no one wants to play CNU and are seemingly trying to twist it to no one wants to play AT CNU. Why in the world would that suddenly be an issue? If no one wanted to play AT CNU, wouldn't that have popped up a lot sooner than this season? How the athletic department spends money and such doesn't suddenly make CNU a location no one wants to play at. And CNU has been pretty good for awhile now, so it isn't like suddenly no one wants to play CNU ... but they are playing CNU, so that doesn't hold water, either.

I think this is a bit of grasping at straws without a lot of actual facts. Let's see how things play out past this one season before we start making any assumptions about scheduling ... especially not wanting to play AT some place.

[Ralph Turner]

Agnes Scott
Bryn Mawr
Cedar Crest
Hollins
Meredith
Notre Dame (Md.)
Salem
Sweet Briar
Trinity (DC)
Wesleyan (Ga.)

yeah, that seems like it would work, Dave, good thinking

+1! Dave and Caz.

Beyond the top 10-15 conferences in D-3 who look "nationally" to assess performance, the emphasis in most conferences and schools is the competition in the conference.

... and you have travel partners too.  ( I assume that Agnes Scott and Wesleyan have alumnae all up and down the Atlantic.)

[Inkblot]

There used to be the Atlantic Women's Colleges Conference (1995–2007), but only two of its members – Notre Dame and Trinity – haven't gone co-ed.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The problem for CNU is not people not wanting to play there - they are excellent hosts with a stellar reputation.  The problem is more that geographically compatible teams don't want to compete with CNU for automatic bids.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

But you are taking one year and saying "no one wants to play at CNU."

First off, Ryan pointed out the men had a few tournaments, so there could have been some logistical problems for the women getting the home dates they wanted,.

Secondly, if this holds true next year then maybe you have something to consider. However, this is one year. There could have been a lot of factors in play as to why they didn't get as many home games as you (or they) wanted. I've seen teams have a lot of away games because scheduling can sometimes just be quirky. I also have seen teams that need games having to play the games on the road that first go-around because the opponent they want to play controls the terms. Not that uncommon.

You do realize the CAC had less members this year and that meant more non-conference games than in years past, right? Frostburg and PSU-Harrisburg left ahead of this season ... that is FOUR more games in the non-conference.

The SMC tournament makes sense to me ... both CAC teams need a few more games and the coaches know one another. They probably decided (a) they could do a tournament there and both teams get two more games with ease or (b) SMC needed another opponent and knew that CNU needed games and invited them to help each other out.

I've been pretty involved in scheduling tournament and been in the offices when coaches are trying to figure out scheduling (not to mention talking to coaches a lot of about scheduling on air, off air, and sitting at a bar even) ... I don't think we can just start making assumptions no one wants to play at CNU suddenly.

Furthermore, why would no one want to play at CNU as opposed to playing CNU in the first place. The argument you jumped off of was that no one wants to play CNU and are seemingly trying to twist it to no one wants to play AT CNU. Why in the world would that suddenly be an issue? If no one wanted to play AT CNU, wouldn't that have popped up a lot sooner than this season? How the athletic department spends money and such doesn't suddenly make CNU a location no one wants to play at. And CNU has been pretty good for awhile now, so it isn't like suddenly no one wants to play CNU ... but they are playing CNU, so that doesn't hold water, either.

I think this is a bit of grasping at straws without a lot of actual facts. Let's see how things play out past this one season before we start making any assumptions about scheduling ... especially not wanting to play AT some place.

the biggest roadblock to home games is probably the 3 men's tourneys at cnu.  depending on year, men usually have 1 or 2 cnu tourneys.  All of the conference games were end of season loaded, so no real chance to get non-conference game after Christmas break like most conferences in region.  guess cnu AD should be fine with women's travel budget increase with extra proceeds from men's tourneys.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

But you are taking one year and saying "no one wants to play at CNU."

First off, Ryan pointed out the men had a few tournaments, so there could have been some logistical problems for the women getting the home dates they wanted,.

Secondly, if this holds true next year then maybe you have something to consider. However, this is one year. There could have been a lot of factors in play as to why they didn't get as many home games as you (or they) wanted. I've seen teams have a lot of away games because scheduling can sometimes just be quirky. I also have seen teams that need games having to play the games on the road that first go-around because the opponent they want to play controls the terms. Not that uncommon.

You do realize the CAC had less members this year and that meant more non-conference games than in years past, right? Frostburg and PSU-Harrisburg left ahead of this season ... that is FOUR more games in the non-conference.

The SMC tournament makes sense to me ... both CAC teams need a few more games and the coaches know one another. They probably decided (a) they could do a tournament there and both teams get two more games with ease or (b) SMC needed another opponent and knew that CNU needed games and invited them to help each other out.

I've been pretty involved in scheduling tournament and been in the offices when coaches are trying to figure out scheduling (not to mention talking to coaches a lot of about scheduling on air, off air, and sitting at a bar even) ... I don't think we can just start making assumptions no one wants to play at CNU suddenly.

Furthermore, why would no one want to play at CNU as opposed to playing CNU in the first place. The argument you jumped off of was that no one wants to play CNU and are seemingly trying to twist it to no one wants to play AT CNU. Why in the world would that suddenly be an issue? If no one wanted to play AT CNU, wouldn't that have popped up a lot sooner than this season? How the athletic department spends money and such doesn't suddenly make CNU a location no one wants to play at. And CNU has been pretty good for awhile now, so it isn't like suddenly no one wants to play CNU ... but they are playing CNU, so that doesn't hold water, either.

I think this is a bit of grasping at straws without a lot of actual facts. Let's see how things play out past this one season before we start making any assumptions about scheduling ... especially not wanting to play AT some place.

the biggest roadblock to home games is probably the 3 men's tourneys at cnu.  depending on year, men usually have 1 or 2 cnu tourneys.  All of the conference games were end of season loaded, so no real chance to get non-conference game after Christmas break like most conferences in region.  guess cnu AD should be fine with women's travel budget increase with extra proceeds from men's tourneys.

I asked John Krikorian about this specifically at the beginning of the year.  He said the women's team had every opportunity for home games - it wasn't an either/or situation.  Broderick decided on the away tourneys route this year - I've not specifically asked him about the rationale on that, but I'm sure he has one.  Krikorian did say they're looking at doing some of those annual tournaments as men's and women's combined events with eight teams in the building for a weekend.  They certainly have the facilities and support to do it.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

But you are taking one year and saying "no one wants to play at CNU."

First off, Ryan pointed out the men had a few tournaments, so there could have been some logistical problems for the women getting the home dates they wanted,.

Secondly, if this holds true next year then maybe you have something to consider. However, this is one year. There could have been a lot of factors in play as to why they didn't get as many home games as you (or they) wanted. I've seen teams have a lot of away games because scheduling can sometimes just be quirky. I also have seen teams that need games having to play the games on the road that first go-around because the opponent they want to play controls the terms. Not that uncommon.

You do realize the CAC had less members this year and that meant more non-conference games than in years past, right? Frostburg and PSU-Harrisburg left ahead of this season ... that is FOUR more games in the non-conference.

The SMC tournament makes sense to me ... both CAC teams need a few more games and the coaches know one another. They probably decided (a) they could do a tournament there and both teams get two more games with ease or (b) SMC needed another opponent and knew that CNU needed games and invited them to help each other out.

I've been pretty involved in scheduling tournament and been in the offices when coaches are trying to figure out scheduling (not to mention talking to coaches a lot of about scheduling on air, off air, and sitting at a bar even) ... I don't think we can just start making assumptions no one wants to play at CNU suddenly.

Furthermore, why would no one want to play at CNU as opposed to playing CNU in the first place. The argument you jumped off of was that no one wants to play CNU and are seemingly trying to twist it to no one wants to play AT CNU. Why in the world would that suddenly be an issue? If no one wanted to play AT CNU, wouldn't that have popped up a lot sooner than this season? How the athletic department spends money and such doesn't suddenly make CNU a location no one wants to play at. And CNU has been pretty good for awhile now, so it isn't like suddenly no one wants to play CNU ... but they are playing CNU, so that doesn't hold water, either.

I think this is a bit of grasping at straws without a lot of actual facts. Let's see how things play out past this one season before we start making any assumptions about scheduling ... especially not wanting to play AT some place.

the biggest roadblock to home games is probably the 3 men's tourneys at cnu.  depending on year, men usually have 1 or 2 cnu tourneys.  All of the conference games were end of season loaded, so no real chance to get non-conference game after Christmas break like most conferences in region.  guess cnu AD should be fine with women's travel budget increase with extra proceeds from men's tourneys.

I asked John Krikorian about this specifically at the beginning of the year.  He said the women's team had every opportunity for home games - it wasn't an either/or situation.  Broderick decided on the away tourneys route this year - I've not specifically asked him about the rationale on that, but I'm sure he has one.  Krikorian did say they're looking at doing some of those annual tournaments as men's and women's combined events with eight teams in the building for a weekend.  They certainly have the facilities and support to do it.

that would be fun atmosphere if 8 teams (mixed) playing tournament.  how hard to do that?  other d3 tournaments like that anywhere?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

But you are taking one year and saying "no one wants to play at CNU."

First off, Ryan pointed out the men had a few tournaments, so there could have been some logistical problems for the women getting the home dates they wanted,.

Secondly, if this holds true next year then maybe you have something to consider. However, this is one year. There could have been a lot of factors in play as to why they didn't get as many home games as you (or they) wanted. I've seen teams have a lot of away games because scheduling can sometimes just be quirky. I also have seen teams that need games having to play the games on the road that first go-around because the opponent they want to play controls the terms. Not that uncommon.

You do realize the CAC had less members this year and that meant more non-conference games than in years past, right? Frostburg and PSU-Harrisburg left ahead of this season ... that is FOUR more games in the non-conference.

The SMC tournament makes sense to me ... both CAC teams need a few more games and the coaches know one another. They probably decided (a) they could do a tournament there and both teams get two more games with ease or (b) SMC needed another opponent and knew that CNU needed games and invited them to help each other out.

I've been pretty involved in scheduling tournament and been in the offices when coaches are trying to figure out scheduling (not to mention talking to coaches a lot of about scheduling on air, off air, and sitting at a bar even) ... I don't think we can just start making assumptions no one wants to play at CNU suddenly.

Furthermore, why would no one want to play at CNU as opposed to playing CNU in the first place. The argument you jumped off of was that no one wants to play CNU and are seemingly trying to twist it to no one wants to play AT CNU. Why in the world would that suddenly be an issue? If no one wanted to play AT CNU, wouldn't that have popped up a lot sooner than this season? How the athletic department spends money and such doesn't suddenly make CNU a location no one wants to play at. And CNU has been pretty good for awhile now, so it isn't like suddenly no one wants to play CNU ... but they are playing CNU, so that doesn't hold water, either.

I think this is a bit of grasping at straws without a lot of actual facts. Let's see how things play out past this one season before we start making any assumptions about scheduling ... especially not wanting to play AT some place.

the biggest roadblock to home games is probably the 3 men's tourneys at cnu.  depending on year, men usually have 1 or 2 cnu tourneys.  All of the conference games were end of season loaded, so no real chance to get non-conference game after Christmas break like most conferences in region.  guess cnu AD should be fine with women's travel budget increase with extra proceeds from men's tourneys.

I asked John Krikorian about this specifically at the beginning of the year.  He said the women's team had every opportunity for home games - it wasn't an either/or situation.  Broderick decided on the away tourneys route this year - I've not specifically asked him about the rationale on that, but I'm sure he has one.  Krikorian did say they're looking at doing some of those annual tournaments as men's and women's combined events with eight teams in the building for a weekend.  They certainly have the facilities and support to do it.

that would be fun atmosphere if 8 teams (mixed) playing tournament.  how hard to do that?  other d3 tournaments like that anywhere?

They bring in a ton of teams, men and women, for the D3hoops.com Classic in Vegas.  The arena is attached to the hotel, so they may not have the same lockerroom demands??  One of the guys would have to answer that.  Typically it's space in the facility more than anything else that's an issue.  I know CNU would like to prove you can host men and women on the same weekend, in the same place to convince the NCAA to try it in the post-season.  Not every school could do it, but CNU is set up well.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I asked John Krikorian about this specifically at the beginning of the year.  He said the women's team had every opportunity for home games - it wasn't an either/or situation.  Broderick decided on the away tourneys route this year - I've not specifically asked him about the rationale on that, but I'm sure he has one.  Krikorian did say they're looking at doing some of those annual tournaments as men's and women's combined events with eight teams in the building for a weekend.  They certainly have the facilities and support to do it.

Gee ... I wonder where he has heard that idea before.

They bring in a ton of teams, men and women, for the D3hoops.com Classic in Vegas.  The arena is attached to the hotel, so they may not have the same lockerroom demands??  One of the guys would have to answer that.  Typically it's space in the facility more than anything else that's an issue.  I know CNU would like to prove you can host men and women on the same weekend, in the same place to convince the NCAA to try it in the post-season.  Not every school could do it, but CNU is set up well.

They maybe should get up to speed with the NCAA ... Division III has said there will be no more mutual hosting during the tournaments. Period. Not going to happen no matter how much CNU wants to prove they can do it. It isn't something that will happen.

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed that dual hosting is a non-starter. Even though CNU and UW-Stevens Point and other schools could certainly pull it off, the appropriate D-III committees wouldn't want to give an advantage to the handful of schools which could effectively manage hosting two tournaments, while the other 400-plus would have to play by other hosting rules.

[jeffconn]

Agnes Scott
Bryn Mawr
Cedar Crest
Hollins
Meredith
Notre Dame (Md.)
Salem
Sweet Briar
Trinity (DC)
Wesleyan (Ga.)

yeah, that seems like it would work, Dave, good thinking

Been there, done that. It didn't work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_South_Athletic_Conference

First, there are travel issues. Why would Hollins or Sweet Briar want to ditch the ODAC with all but one conference game in Virginia in exchange for road trips to Pennsylvania or southern Georgia?
Second, these are small private women's colleges. We're in an age when small private schools are closing every year, and private women's schools are going co-ed. Why would they create another conference with barely enough members to qualify for automatic bids, when one or two of your members could close or move to a co-ed conference after it starts admitting men?
As much as some of us hate to admit it, oversized D3 conferences like USA South, ODAC, or MAC are the way to go for private colleges.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

I asked John Krikorian about this specifically at the beginning of the year.  He said the women's team had every opportunity for home games - it wasn't an either/or situation.  Broderick decided on the away tourneys route this year - I've not specifically asked him about the rationale on that, but I'm sure he has one.  Krikorian did say they're looking at doing some of those annual tournaments as men's and women's combined events with eight teams in the building for a weekend.  They certainly have the facilities and support to do it.

Gee ... I wonder where he has heard that idea before.

They bring in a ton of teams, men and women, for the D3hoops.com Classic in Vegas.  The arena is attached to the hotel, so they may not have the same lockerroom demands??  One of the guys would have to answer that.  Typically it's space in the facility more than anything else that's an issue.  I know CNU would like to prove you can host men and women on the same weekend, in the same place to convince the NCAA to try it in the post-season.  Not every school could do it, but CNU is set up well.

They maybe should get up to speed with the NCAA ... Division III has said there will be no more mutual hosting during the tournaments. Period. Not going to happen no matter how much CNU wants to prove they can do it. It isn't something that will happen.

d3hoops ever look into doing same tourney on East Coast?

[CNU85]

I asked John Krikorian about this specifically at the beginning of the year.  He said the women's team had every opportunity for home games - it wasn't an either/or situation.  Broderick decided on the away tourneys route this year - I've not specifically asked him about the rationale on that, but I'm sure he has one.  Krikorian did say they're looking at doing some of those annual tournaments as men's and women's combined events with eight teams in the building for a weekend.  They certainly have the facilities and support to do it.

Gee ... I wonder where he has heard that idea before.

They bring in a ton of teams, men and women, for the D3hoops.com Classic in Vegas.  The arena is attached to the hotel, so they may not have the same lockerroom demands??  One of the guys would have to answer that.  Typically it's space in the facility more than anything else that's an issue.  I know CNU would like to prove you can host men and women on the same weekend, in the same place to convince the NCAA to try it in the post-season.  Not every school could do it, but CNU is set up well.

They maybe should get up to speed with the NCAA ... Division III has said there will be no more mutual hosting during the tournaments. Period. Not going to happen no matter how much CNU wants to prove they can do it. It isn't something that will happen.

Calm down Dave.

1. Nobody said Krikorian/Broderick had a new and unique idea. Ryan was just saying what they had discussed. It would be something CNU is willing to try to see how it goes.
2. CNU KNOWS they cannot dual host NCAA. No need to "get up to speed". Ryan was just speculating or throwing out his thoughts.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

First off - my first comment had nothing to do with the second.

The first one about where they got the idea of eight-teams in the building is a bit close for comfort ... since I have talked to them about a tournament there and that is my exact model.