Conference changes

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

There is a max given in DII and I believe Pat's number of 10 is accurate. Now, you can split those scholarships up however you want ... maybe that is something those others are doing well?

Or because those scholarships are "worth" more due to the cost of tuition at those institutions?

[Pat Coleman]

Right, you do not have to give them as full scholarships. And that's not a minimum number of scholarships, it's a ceiling, so it's certainly possible that not every school gives the full allotment. (That's more common in football, where the limit is 36.)

There is a minimum amount of scholarship funding a school has to commit for the athletic department as a whole in order to be a Division II member as well, but no minimum per sport that I'm aware of.

[jmcozenlaw]

Right, you do not have to give them as full scholarships. And that's not a minimum number of scholarships, it's a ceiling, so it's certainly possible that not every school gives the full allotment. (That's more common in football, where the limit is 36.)

There is a minimum amount of scholarship funding a school has to commit for the athletic department as a whole in order to be a Division II member as well, but no minimum per sport that I'm aware of.

That makes sense. No names here (but pretty easy to figure out) but a head coach in the PSAC East (and former, hint hint, D3 head coach about an hour south of where he is now) said that his school, East Stroudsburg, Bloomsburg, West Chester, etc. start from behind the PSAC West's Big Three (I.U.P, Slippery Rock and Cal U) every year with what they can offer. I guess they are held back from a budgetary standpoint.

The head coach of a PSAC East hoops team (better hint........was a D3 head coach at the same school as the football coach above) mentioned the same thing about one school in particular, out West. Again, I.U.P. My buddy was the long time head coach at Clarion and he'd say the same thing about I.U.P. Maybe they are just more, eh hemm, "creative"

[jmcozenlaw]

Dave, Ryan, Pat, Anybody (I'm bored out of my mind at the moment...........there is only so much financial market analysis I can do........and it's all a guess anyway )

Without disclosing anything that you guys might have been told off the record, how do you think some of the conferences shake out in the next couple of years (without factoring in a couple of the inevitable MacMurray type situations). I'm particularly interested in conferences like the CAC, NEAC, CSAC, AEC and both MAC's.

I would be interested in hearing all of your input, guesses, speculation as to what the next round or two of conference roulette might look like.

Thanks and be safe and healthy!!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think how things shake out has been something I've been rather open about on Hoopsville and here in the past. I don't see anything now that changes my opinions.

The CAC will be merging with the ACAA - how that works will be determined - and it apparently could take place as soon as next academic year (understanding our current situation could put everything on hold). It will have to be under the CAC umbrella to keep AQs intact. The conference will become a bit of a stepping stone. Programs will use it, as they did the ACAA, to step into other conferences eventually. There is nothing wrong with that, but that is likely the reality.

I have always felt the MAC (both "leagues") goes through ebbs and flows with it's size. As it gets bigger to the point of too big, it tends to shed off a few members. You can look back at it's history and see that time and time again. Nothing wrong with it. It happens.

I would not be surprised in the least, especially in current economic times causing some budget tightening, if some MACs decide to leave for other conferences. Who? I can only whittle down who they may be on the following: likely schools that do NOT have football (stay in MAC for football); schools that aren't able to spend/have budgets like others in the MAC (i.e. football schools again would likely stay; budgets are already big). Where? I think it depends on location, but some of those choices might be obvious as there aren't a lot of options, really.

CSAC will grow a bit. They already have Valley Forge moving in I believe next season and I know they have an offer already available for another school in the region to join them (school just needs to settle their inner-changes and sign on the dotted line). CSAC is a good conference for the type of schools looking to grow. It isn't going anywhere.

NEAC is going to get smaller and things are going to get tough. They lose three or four next year (can't remember the exact count) with two going to the NAC and another to the Liberty (right?). Others will leave as well whether they want to our not (remember, Wells has been on tough economic times for several years even after bringing in men to try and right the ship; this current situation can not be helping Wells at all). That will create some interesting situations especially for a school like Morrisville State. While St. Mary's is expected in July 2021, that won't stop the bleeding. The NEAC just won't be as large as some think it will be and I'm not sure other members are going to stick around - the question becomes where do they go. I know of one who has tried to leave several times and hasn't been able to find a new home to their liking.

AEC will be fine - heck it may even grow. If the right members from either the MACs or elsewhere want to leave, they will find a home in the AEC. That can be the right conference for a group of schools who want to be competitive but just can't spend like the "big boys." Wesley is the only concern, but they are supposedly going to be bought by an out-of-state school (media reports have named them; I know the school, but not comfortable mentioning it). Yes, I have heard arguments that the current economic situation could end that merger possibility (which appears to leave the newly-renamed-Wesley in DIII athletics), but I think it still happens.

Landmark - no one talks about this conference, but I am not sure the future is bright as it stands. Merchant Marine left because they weren't the right fit afterall. E-town is a nice addition. However, I am not sure the current membership remains. Again, if the MAC were to shed one or two the Landmark is a good spot for those who fit the "like-mindedness" of this group. However, I also think there are some whose administrations aren't allowing them to truly fit in the Landmark. They would be better off in the AEC or the like. Will that happen? I can't really say because that comes down to whether anyone wants to swallow their egos and let student-athletes' experience drive the boat.

USA South - I have said many times I thought a split was coming ... but as I reported before, it seems to have been put on hold. But this conference is simply too big. It just doesn't make any sense (as it continues to grow as well). With only one AQ possible EVER (they will never get a grandfather clause like the MAC), the USA South has got to think about a split. There are several ways to do it and some will have to suck up the two years of no AQ (battling the top dogs in the CAC for Pool B), but I think this has to be seriously considered for this group of schools to have more realistic opportunities at NCAA tournament hopes and  to be able to put together competitive teams in all sports.

MIAC - just keep an eye on things here. St. Thomas is obviously out (exactly where is still to be determined; I do wonder if the current economic slow-down has D1 and UST reassessing feasibilities of the future), but I don't think the ripple effects of that decision are past the MIAC. I think some people are angered with how it all went down and further changes to the MIAC could still come ... and that could have ripple effects elsewhere.

I am also hearing there could be some movement still in that Midwest when it comes to conferences like the NACC and MWC ... but I couldn't give you any specifics or hints at all.

And there will be other movement. I don't think the NAC is done growing and other conferences will feel the effects of that movement. I think the division could be eyeing not only shrinking of membership due to school closures, but also the chance of growth as other schools reassess their feasibility in NAIA and DII. And as mentioned, school closings will have a big affect on everything.

In January, I predicted for D3 Playbook that 6-12 DIII institutions would close in 2020. At the time, I was well above any other predictions. Now I wonder if I am pretty low and more like 15-20 might shutter their doors.

We live in some interesting times.

[ronk]

I think how things shake out has been something I've been rather open about on Hoopsville and here in the past. I don't see anything now that changes my opinions.

The CAC will be merging with the ACAA - how that works will be determined - and it apparently could take place as soon as next academic year (understanding our current situation could put everything on hold). It will have to be under the CAC umbrella to keep AQs intact. The conference will become a bit of a stepping stone. Programs will use it, as they did the ACAA, to step into other conferences eventually. There is nothing wrong with that, but that is likely the reality.

I have always felt the MAC (both "leagues") goes through ebbs and flows with it's size. As it gets bigger to the point of too big, it tends to shed off a few members. You can look back at it's history and see that time and time again. Nothing wrong with it. It happens.

I would not be surprised in the least, especially in current economic times causing some budget tightening, if some MACs decide to leave for other conferences. Who? I can only whittle down who they may be on the following: likely schools that do NOT have football (stay in MAC for football); schools that aren't able to spend/have budgets like others in the MAC (i.e. football schools again would likely stay; budgets are already big). Where? I think it depends on location, but some of those choices might be obvious as there aren't a lot of options, really.

CSAC will grow a bit. They already have Valley Forge moving in I believe next season and I know they have an offer already available for another school in the region to join them (school just needs to settle their inner-changes and sign on the dotted line). CSAC is a good conference for the type of schools looking to grow. It isn't going anywhere.

NEAC is going to get smaller and things are going to get tough. They lose three or four next year (can't remember the exact count) with two going to the NAC and another to the Liberty (right?). Others will leave as well whether they want to our not (remember, Wells has been on tough economic times for several years even after bringing in men to try and right the ship; this current situation can not be helping Wells at all). That will create some interesting situations especially for a school like Morrisville State. While St. Mary's is expected in July 2021, that won't stop the bleeding. The NEAC just won't be as large as some think it will be and I'm not sure other members are going to stick around - the question becomes where do they go. I know of one who has tried to leave several times and hasn't been able to find a new home to their liking.

AEC will be fine - heck it may even grow. If the right members from either the MACs or elsewhere want to leave, they will find a home in the AEC. That can be the right conference for a group of schools who want to be competitive but just can't spend like the "big boys." Wesley is the only concern, but they are supposedly going to be bought by an out-of-state school (media reports have named them; I know the school, but not comfortable mentioning it). Yes, I have heard arguments that the current economic situation could end that merger possibility (which appears to leave the newly-renamed-Wesley in DIII athletics), but I think it still happens.

Landmark - no one talks about this conference, but I am not sure the future is bright as it stands. Merchant Marine left because they weren't the right fit afterall. E-town is a nice addition. However, I am not sure the current membership remains. Again, if the MAC were to shed one or two the Landmark is a good spot for those who fit the "like-mindedness" of this group. However, I also think there are some whose administrations aren't allowing them to truly fit in the Landmark. They would be better off in the AEC or the like. Will that happen? I can't really say because that comes down to whether anyone wants to swallow their egos and let student-athletes' experience drive the boat.

USA South - I have said many times I thought a split was coming ... but as I reported before, it seems to have been put on hold. But this conference is simply too big. It just doesn't make any sense (as it continues to grow as well). With only one AQ possible EVER (they will never get a grandfather clause like the MAC), the USA South has got to think about a split. There are several ways to do it and some will have to suck up the two years of no AQ (battling the top dogs in the CAC for Pool B), but I think this has to be seriously considered for this group of schools to have more realistic opportunities at NCAA tournament hopes and  to be able to put together competitive teams in all sports.

MIAC - just keep an eye on things here. St. Thomas is obviously out (exactly where is still to be determined; I do wonder if the current economic slow-down has D1 and UST reassessing feasibilities of the future), but I don't think the ripple effects of that decision are past the MIAC. I think some people are angered with how it all went down and further changes to the MIAC could still come ... and that could have ripple effects elsewhere.

I am also hearing there could be some movement still in that Midwest when it comes to conferences like the NACC and MWC ... but I couldn't give you any specifics or hints at all.

And there will be other movement. I don't think the NAC is done growing and other conferences will feel the effects of that movement. I think the division could be eyeing not only shrinking of membership due to school closures, but also the chance of growth as other schools reassess their feasibility in NAIA and DII. And as mentioned, school closings will have a big affect on everything.

In January, I predicted for D3 Playbook that 6-12 DIII institutions would close in 2020. At the time, I was well above any other predictions. Now I wonder if I am pretty low and more like 15-20 might shutter their doors.

We live in some interesting times.

  Are you talking about current Landmark members leaving or others considering joining(expanding) the Landmark?
Haven't seen any thoughts elsewhere on changing/expanding the Landmark.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

ronk - you wouldn't necessarily see any other thoughts on here about the Landmark ... no one has posted any. I have said on air and I've said elsewhere, I think the Landmark might see some schools come and go. I don't think they are that rock solid. I know expansion was mentioned in the past, but some felt going to ten schools wasn't in the best interest of the conference (despite being at nine at the time, if memory serves). I also think there is a chance one or two members decide the Landmark wasn't what they hoped it would be or, more likely, find themselves in situations that are very different than ten years ago and the Landmark is no longer the right fit for the department.

And I know a lot of stuff I don't share on here or on air ... thus why you also wouldn't necessarily see things posted or hear about them. My read on the Landmark is putting pieces together based on many conversations I've had in the region. It doesn't mean it will happen, but it is how I could see things developing reading the tea leaves (and what will be further movement).

[Greek Tragedy]

With SUNYIT, Cobelskill, Cazenovia and SUNY Delhi all joining the NAC, are they going to two divisions? It looks like they'll have 12. Related, with three NEAC North teams leaving, I assume the NEAC will go back to one division?

Also, I noticed on the Skyline website, they have two divisions listed, but on the d3hoops standing page, the Skyline is still listed as one. Was that simply an oversight?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

With SUNYIT, Cobelskill, Cazenovia and SUNY Delhi all joining the NAC, are they going to two divisions? It looks like they'll have 12. Related, with three NEAC North teams leaving, I assume the NEAC will go back to one division?

Also, I noticed on the Skyline website, they have two divisions listed, but on the d3hoops standing page, the Skyline is still listed as one. Was that simply an oversight?

NEAC might have to, although that's not going to make the teams happy.  The divisions had a lot to do with cutting down travel times.  I'm pretty sure the NAC has plans for divisions, but maybe not just yet.  We'll see.  As for the Skyline, I was unaware of the divisions.

[jmcozenlaw]

I think how things shake out has been something I've been rather open about on Hoopsville and here in the past. I don't see anything now that changes my opinions.

The CAC will be merging with the ACAA - how that works will be determined - and it apparently could take place as soon as next academic year (understanding our current situation could put everything on hold). It will have to be under the CAC umbrella to keep AQs intact. The conference will become a bit of a stepping stone. Programs will use it, as they did the ACAA, to step into other conferences eventually. There is nothing wrong with that, but that is likely the reality.

I have always felt the MAC (both "leagues") goes through ebbs and flows with it's size. As it gets bigger to the point of too big, it tends to shed off a few members. You can look back at it's history and see that time and time again. Nothing wrong with it. It happens.

I would not be surprised in the least, especially in current economic times causing some budget tightening, if some MACs decide to leave for other conferences. Who? I can only whittle down who they may be on the following: likely schools that do NOT have football (stay in MAC for football); schools that aren't able to spend/have budgets like others in the MAC (i.e. football schools again would likely stay; budgets are already big). Where? I think it depends on location, but some of those choices might be obvious as there aren't a lot of options, really.

CSAC will grow a bit. They already have Valley Forge moving in I believe next season and I know they have an offer already available for another school in the region to join them (school just needs to settle their inner-changes and sign on the dotted line). CSAC is a good conference for the type of schools looking to grow. It isn't going anywhere.

NEAC is going to get smaller and things are going to get tough. They lose three or four next year (can't remember the exact count) with two going to the NAC and another to the Liberty (right?). Others will leave as well whether they want to our not (remember, Wells has been on tough economic times for several years even after bringing in men to try and right the ship; this current situation can not be helping Wells at all). That will create some interesting situations especially for a school like Morrisville State. While St. Mary's is expected in July 2021, that won't stop the bleeding. The NEAC just won't be as large as some think it will be and I'm not sure other members are going to stick around - the question becomes where do they go. I know of one who has tried to leave several times and hasn't been able to find a new home to their liking.

AEC will be fine - heck it may even grow. If the right members from either the MACs or elsewhere want to leave, they will find a home in the AEC. That can be the right conference for a group of schools who want to be competitive but just can't spend like the "big boys." Wesley is the only concern, but they are supposedly going to be bought by an out-of-state school (media reports have named them; I know the school, but not comfortable mentioning it). Yes, I have heard arguments that the current economic situation could end that merger possibility (which appears to leave the newly-renamed-Wesley in DIII athletics), but I think it still happens.

Landmark - no one talks about this conference, but I am not sure the future is bright as it stands. Merchant Marine left because they weren't the right fit afterall. E-town is a nice addition. However, I am not sure the current membership remains. Again, if the MAC were to shed one or two the Landmark is a good spot for those who fit the "like-mindedness" of this group. However, I also think there are some whose administrations aren't allowing them to truly fit in the Landmark. They would be better off in the AEC or the like. Will that happen? I can't really say because that comes down to whether anyone wants to swallow their egos and let student-athletes' experience drive the boat.

USA South - I have said many times I thought a split was coming ... but as I reported before, it seems to have been put on hold. But this conference is simply too big. It just doesn't make any sense (as it continues to grow as well). With only one AQ possible EVER (they will never get a grandfather clause like the MAC), the USA South has got to think about a split. There are several ways to do it and some will have to suck up the two years of no AQ (battling the top dogs in the CAC for Pool B), but I think this has to be seriously considered for this group of schools to have more realistic opportunities at NCAA tournament hopes and  to be able to put together competitive teams in all sports.

MIAC - just keep an eye on things here. St. Thomas is obviously out (exactly where is still to be determined; I do wonder if the current economic slow-down has D1 and UST reassessing feasibilities of the future), but I don't think the ripple effects of that decision are past the MIAC. I think some people are angered with how it all went down and further changes to the MIAC could still come ... and that could have ripple effects elsewhere.

I am also hearing there could be some movement still in that Midwest when it comes to conferences like the NACC and MWC ... but I couldn't give you any specifics or hints at all.

And there will be other movement. I don't think the NAC is done growing and other conferences will feel the effects of that movement. I think the division could be eyeing not only shrinking of membership due to school closures, but also the chance of growth as other schools reassess their feasibility in NAIA and DII. And as mentioned, school closings will have a big affect on everything.

In January, I predicted for D3 Playbook that 6-12 DIII institutions would close in 2020. At the time, I was well above any other predictions. Now I wonder if I am pretty low and more like 15-20 might shutter their doors.

We live in some interesting times.

Dave - Thanks for the very thorough response!!

NEAC: To answer someone else's question here, the NEAC will go down to one division. Not everybody is happy, but they realize it's what has to happen, at least for now. I'm hearing that Lancaster Bible (after a couple of failed attempts, primarily self inflicted wounds though) is desperately looking to leave the NEAC. I also wonder if St. Mary's is regretting and/or can back out of their decision to move to the NEAC. It looks like there might be a better option or two for them when the conference roulette dust settles. The NEAC will be down to 8 with the 4 departing schools and if LBC is successful, now we're at 7. Morrisville would love out but there is no natural NY fit as of today. Does this eventually become the PA version of the WIAC or a modified WIAC, with primarily PSU satellite schools and a few other non-PSU schools? Sam Atkinson knows one hell of a lot more than me, although he probably can't go on the record at this point. My guess.....Lancaster Bible to the CSAC within 3 years.

MAC: I've got several long time connections here and Dave's comments about a couple of proximate conferences being potential landing spots for departing schools makes sense given what I am hearing. Arcadia is an easy one, given that they had one foot out the door two years ago before backing out of a move (I forget if it was to the AEC or CSAC). DeSales has been quietly looking for a while and has actually been engaged in some quiet conversations with one conference in particular. They did a feasibility study looking at adding football and it was shot down. Messiah is also sniffing around, but does not know what would make better sense at this point. Lastly, the MAC is fully aware of their schools that are either looking around or have been approached and as a result.........they have a few potential "replacements" on speed dial so to speak. As an example, if King's/Wilkes/Miser all stay together in the MAC, the Christian school (whose name escapes me at the moment........right up the turnpike from those three) that recently added football is a target as well as another school or two that I won't mention here, but could be guessed quite easily. Two more MAC tidbits to watch out for, later rather than sooner, unless their is a lot of upheaval in the MAC..................and I will very briefly mention it below:

Landmark: Stevens (will leave it at that, as brief as I could be)

AEC: Would love to add Eastern

Last question, I'm pretty friendly with a couple of people down at Bob Jones and they have shown interest (I believe they are in the beginning stages at this moment) in becoming a part of NCAA D3, and like Lancaster Bible, it gives them the opportunity to stay in the NCCAA and get involved in their regional and national tournaments........unless they were to win their conference tournament and get an AQ. They are adding sports (baseball and softball were delayed by a year) and are looking at lacrosse and a couple of others. They are also in solid shape financially and have some nice facilities. Their gym is top notch (not in a Hope kind of way, nor in comparison to Wesley/Eastern/Manhattanville/DeSales either) and other non-athletic facilities are as well.

Dave, given where they are in Greenville, SC, is there a "natural" geographic conference for Bob Jones somewhere down the road?

Last question, do you see Hood as a long term member of the MAC, especially if they are eventually the only non-football member? I'm not hearing anything here, just a question.

[Pat Coleman]

Great stuff here, JM -- reminds me of when you had that Mid-Atlantic site way back in the day!

Keystone is the one which added football.

Arcadia had been on the list for the AEC.

I'd be amused by Stevens coming to the Landmark. They were a founding member, and their president even leaked the announcement, and then Stevens left very early on in the process, allowing Scranton an opportunity to join.

[Pat Coleman]

As far as the MAC losing its non-football schools -- there are still a bunch who don't have football and I would be surprised if the MAC whittles. The MAC has a lot of pride in being the one conference that has that grandfathered exception regarding multiple automatic bids and I'm sure the new leadership will be just as eager to keep it, and probably more effective in its ability to attract members.

[ronk]

Great stuff here, JM -- reminds me of when you had that Mid-Atlantic site way back in the day!

Keystone is the one which added football.

Arcadia had been on the list for the AEC.

I'd be amused by Stevens coming to the Landmark. They were a founding member, and their president even leaked the announcement, and then Stevens left very early on in the process, allowing Scranton an opportunity to join.

That would seem to warrant against a return to the Landmark; in addition, Stevens has been in 3 different conferences since then(how long before they jump again?) and increasing membership to 9 from 8 would cause more negatives than positives.

[mailsy]

Lately of all the boards this is becoming a favorite of mine. Love the insight. Being from a university in the AEC getting more schools in the conference would be wonderful for me and I'm sure others. The fact that they have had so few games for me attend has been frustrating. All these road tournaments to get the requisite 25 games has been aggravating, especially because they have to play a lot of them during my busy season(the holidays). Plus they don't have as many home games as they once did.

[smedindy]

Right, you do not have to give them as full scholarships. And that's not a minimum number of scholarships, it's a ceiling, so it's certainly possible that not every school gives the full allotment. (That's more common in football, where the limit is 36.)

There is a minimum amount of scholarship funding a school has to commit for the athletic department as a whole in order to be a Division II member as well, but no minimum per sport that I'm aware of.

Our AD used to give Advancement presentations on ther percentage of full funding each school in the GNAC (PNW style) funded. Alaska Anchorage was the highest at about 85 to 90 percent. Western Oregon seemed to be always near the bottom.