Conference changes

[jmcozenlaw]

It looks like there is something brewing (after a few false starts) with Lancaster Bible switching conferences. Also a couple of the United East schools are looking around and if they find a home, that might just doom the United East. I wonder what would happen to St. Mary's and Gallaudet down south........and the three Penn State schools (Abington, Berks, Harrisburg) as well.

The Conference roulette wheel just keeps on a spinning.........and MAC rumors are getting stronger AFTER the Wilkes and Lycoming departures (and the Leb Val switch). There are a few schools approaching the MAC regarding joining the conference. I'm at a loss as to who though.

[Pat Coleman]

It looks like there is something brewing (after a few false starts) with Lancaster Bible switching conferences. Also a couple of the United East schools are looking around and if they find a home, that might just doom the United East. I wonder what would happen to St. Mary's and Gallaudet down south........and the three Penn State schools (Abington, Berks, Harrisburg) as well.

The Conference roulette wheel just keeps on a spinning.........and MAC rumors are getting stronger AFTER the Wilkes and Lycoming departures (and the Leb Val switch). There are a few schools approaching the MAC regarding joining the conference. I'm at a loss as to who though.

Lancaster Bible has been looking at the CSAC, right? But I wonder if the MAC is a better spot for them.

St. Mary's and Gallaudet could go back to the CAC. I know they left and that Gallaudet was not in good shape when it left the league, but the league is not in good shape right now.

If I had to guess as to who would be approaching the MAC, I'd start with the same pipeline as always: CSAC to MAC. Keystone would be the one that I would guess to be the most interested.

[warriorcat]

Any rumblings about  possible move by Nichols to Div 2 NE 10?  I heard this rumor over the weekend and wonder if there might be anything to it. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Any rumblings about  possible move by Nichols to Div 2 NE 10?  I heard this rumor over the weekend and wonder if there might be anything to it.

I'm sure they're a target for the NE D2 conferences, but Nichols has always been on a knife's edge financially.  They've only even had full time head coaches for the last five or six years and they all still have split duties. The whole athletic budget, including salaries is just over $2m and the institutional endowment is $22m.  I think it would be tough to fund a solid d2 program.

You'd have to combine that move with either a large enrollment increase or a major fundraising campaign.

Now, schools have done crazier things, but they're in a pretty good spot where they are.

(Just for comparison, Bentley, a top tier NE D2 school, spends $13m annually on their athletic programs.)

[CNU85]

Any rumblings about  possible move by Nichols to Div 2 NE 10?  I heard this rumor over the weekend and wonder if there might be anything to it.

I'm sure they're a target for the NE D2 conferences, but Nichols has always been on a knife's edge financially.  They've only even had full time head coaches for the last five or six years and they all still have split duties. The whole athletic budget, including salaries is just over $2m and the institutional endowment is $22m.  I think it would be tough to fund a solid d2 program.

You'd have to combine that move with either a large enrollment increase or a major fundraising campaign.

Now, schools have done crazier things, but they're in a pretty good spot where they are.

(Just for comparison, Bentley, a top tier NE D2 school, spends $13m annually on their athletic programs.)

Good points. Crazier things have indeed happened. The world of college athletics is fascinating and, at times, nonsensical.

Just for fun I did some research. Frostburg State who recently went D2. As of the last year they were DIII (2020) - endowment was $28.4 Million and total expenses for the athletic dept per Equity in Athletics was $5.9 million.

Not sure what all this means...but to me it seems like FSU found a way to make it happen with not so impressive figures.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

State schools typically have more and more flexible funding streams. Enrollment helps, too. Frostburg is pushing 6,000. Nichols is usually high triple digits.

[WUPHF]

State schools typically have more and more flexible funding streams.

This varies from state to state, but in general, I would disagree.

Here is how Frostburg pays for athletics:

Athletic Fee: An athletic fee of $552 per semester for full-time students and a $62 per credit hour fee for part-time students is used to support the University's program in intercollegiate and intramural athletics.

$1,104 per year to subsidize athletics is crazy, but such is life as a college student in 2022-2023.

I do agree that enrollment help.

[CNU85]

CNU has an "Intercollegiate Athletics and Intramurals Fee" of $94.74 per credit hour. Assume 15 hrs per semester......$2,842 per year. Yikes!

[WUPHF]

In Missouri, the public schools are required to disclose fees in a way that the privates are not.  I assume that Frostburg had to be very clear that the fees was connected to athletics.

My alma mater currently has a few of $1,154 that covers all fees, but may be largely athletics.

I think $1,154 was may a 25-30% of what I paid in tuition and fees overall, but I am old, obviously.

[gordonmann]

Size usually helps and state schools, however big they are individually, can leverage the assets of other schools in ways private schools cannot.

For example, one state university can leverage the credit worthiness of the entire system when it borrows money to improve its facilities, including athletic facilities. John Doe State benefits from being the SUNY or Wisconsin or New Jersey State system. Meanwhile, Elmira College can't ask for a lower interest rate to renovate the field house because the other members of the Empire 8 pay their bills on time.

There's also less scrutiny for individual capital projects if it's part of a massive statewide or system wide budget. A $500,000 building project attracts more attention in a $10 million budget than it does in a $100 million budget.

I realize this is a little different from student fees, but it's all part of the picture for how athletic systems are funded.

[WUPHF]

There's also less scrutiny for individual capital projects if it's part of a massive statewide or system wide budget. A $500,000 building project attracts more attention in a $10 million budget than it does in a $100 million budget.

In terms of scrutiny, this goes both ways.

As far as I can tell, the biggest and best gyms are at privates.  Drury, Nova Southeastern and so on.  It seems that there are more Bellarmines than UIndys or Southern Indianas, but maybe I am wrong.

I have not paid close attention, but it seems as though most institutions that are moving to Division I or II are private.

I do think we would find that the private liberal arts colleges have more success in terms of fundraising as well.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

In terms of flexibility, I was thinking about moving from d3 to d2.  The state schools likely have more options and fewer restrictions than private schools to transfer significant aid money to athletics.

[thebear]

Size usually helps and state schools, however big they are individually, can leverage the assets of other schools in ways private schools cannot.

For example, one state university can leverage the credit worthiness of the entire system when it borrows money to improve its facilities, including athletic facilities. John Doe State benefits from being the SUNY or Wisconsin or New Jersey State system. Meanwhile, Elmira College can't ask for a lower interest rate to renovate the field house because the other members of the Empire 8 pay their bills on time.

There's also less scrutiny for individual capital projects if it's part of a massive statewide or system wide budget. A $500,000 building project attracts more attention in a $10 million budget than it does in a $100 million budget.

I realize this is a little different from student fees, but it's all part of the picture for how athletic systems are funded.

Before i retired I did athletic budgets and the NCAA reporting for a state operated campus.  Their funding streams are complex.  The facilities are largely funded by the state including buildings, utilities, janitorial staff etc.  Team travel expenses, payments to officials, recruiting, equipment and uniforms are usually paid for through a student fee. Coaches & administrator salaries are usually funded by the state, but asst salaries etc may not be.  Student workers may be paid through the athletic fee or college work study if eligible.  There is some fund-raising and that is used to supplement what cannot be paid for through the state or fee-based funding streams.  With the pandemic, enrollment has dropped and that will put pressure on the fee-based and campus budgets, College athletics is headed into uncharted territory over the next few years at the D-III level. The enrollment drop is present among many D-III schools.

[WUPHF]

Before i retired I did athletic budgets and the NCAA reporting for a state operated campus.  Their funding streams are complex.  The facilities are largely funded by the state including buildings, utilities, janitorial staff etc. 

Do you mind providing an example of a state school that is largely funded by the state, given the continuous decline in state funding over the last few decades?

[gordonmann]

Thanks, Bear.

That validates and expounds on my thinking.

Some of this is hard to quantify because institutions budget things differently, which makes it hard to track spending the same way across all institutions. The person in charge of facility maintenance might be budgeted in the Athletic department, a facilities department that covers all buildings or somewhere else. The costs aren't different depending on how where you record the expense but that impacts the comparison.

Years ago, when I compared Division III football program budgets, UW-whitewater football was on a run of national titles and it also had one of the lowest total spending tallies. The budget was lower or comparable to private school programs whose facilities were a far cry from Perkins Stadium.

My conclusion was that UW-Whitewater, as a state school, had the same or even higher expenses -- they certainly had higher facility costs -- but they budgeted them elsewhere. And the larger your system, the more places you have to potentially budget them.

If you're part of a state system, you have access to more ability to "buy in bulk," use system assets, access debt with a different credt rating, etc. That doesn't mean a SUNY or WIAC school has more financial capacity than Harvard or a liberal arts school with a big endowment. And certainly there are some private schools that are investing in athletics. Look at the facilities at Hope and Calvin.

But my theory (and it's only that) is that SUNY schools have more financial capacity than, say, Elmira, Well or Houghton.