WBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Barber Greene]

Good to know that I will be able to follow the games.

Stupid me, I had not expected the Warhawks being in the Final Four (men or women) and am now committed to other Easter weekend plans

That will teach me 

[Pat Coleman]

We're doing all of the games, including streaming video for the semis and third-place game. Details out front later this week.

Where would I go to find the streaming video?

Thanks

Details out front later this week, like I said.

[The Champ]

Champ,

It must have been a situation with an unavoidable conflict, because I've spoken to the conference officials assignor and he does not schedule Scott for UWL games (at Scott's own request).

I'm sure that's true, but I remember the last time it happened was actually in LaCrosse.  I was with Coach T before the game (road the team bus down) while the girls were suiting up, and when T learned Scott was officiating - he was totally cool with it.

Having seen the situation happen, I just couldn't understand DPU's comments "if I were a coach of a WIAC school and the above scenario occurred, I'd pull my team off the floor and refuse to play".

If the official is good at what they do, it shouldn't matter what game he/she officiates.

[Usuallywrong24]

Champ,

It must have been a situation with an unavoidable conflict, because I've spoken to the conference officials assignor and he does not schedule Scott for UWL games (at Scott's own request).

I'm sure that's true, but I remember the last time it happened was actually in LaCrosse.  I was with Coach T before the game (road the team bus down) while the girls were suiting up, and when T learned Scott was officiating - he was totally cool with it.

Having seen the situation happen, I just couldn't understand DPU's comments "if I were a coach of a WIAC school and the above scenario occurred, I'd pull my team off the floor and refuse to play".

If the official is good at what they do, it shouldn't matter what game he/she officiates.

I understand your point Champ, but if I was coaching a team and I learned a ref actually works at the school, it would be tough to deal with.  I think it is different for some of the WIAC coaches since they know this ref usually does a very good job, but it would be tough for an out of conference coach to come in and learn this before or after one game.  The reason is they have no idea who this guy is, if he is good, and his motives.  Some of his calls could thought to be influenced. 

I know this isn't the case with this official, but I am just trying to get a couple of other people to understand DPU's comments. 

[DPU3619]

I have a huge problem with an employee of a school in Conference XYZ officiating an NCAA tournament game featuring another XYZ conference team.  My allegiance may lie with DePauw, but I feel that's not relevant to this issue as a whole.  DePauw didn't lose on Saturday because of LaCrosse's trainer being one of the officials.  They lost because they got outrebounded, allowed UWW to shoot 57% in the second half, and turned it over 19 times.  Maybe a 7 foul differential had something do with it, but the other reasons are greater than that one.

Now, I do not doubt that the gentlemen in question is a upstanding fellow who does not intentionally favor any of the participants of any game he officiates.  However, that should have no bearing on it.  The potential that an official could affect a tournament game because they're employed by a conference member school is enough that it should never happen.  Ever.

If the official is good at what they do, it shouldn't matter what game he/she officiates.

I do vehemently disagree with this statement, because I believe that having such a bias is not necessarily a conscious decision.  Listen, an official may not be intentionally jobbing one team or the other.  S/He may not go out there with the idea that he's sending Team X to the Final Four no matter what it takes.  Think about one foul call here that could go the other way, or a traveling call there that they weren't 100% sure on so they gave the benefit of the doubt to the player. Those can add up throughout 40 minutes.  That's not intentionally giving a team an edge, but it's still giving them an edge.

And again, I'm not saying that the official in question did anything to that effect, but the potential that he could have because of his familiarity with the Warhawks should be reason enough to prohibit such a thing from happening in the first place. 

[hoops49]

More good news for UWW: Howard Payne beat Hope.   Now UWW (and the other two Final Four participants) don't have to worry about dealing with Hope on its home court.

Exactly why NO team should play on their home court at the National level.

[hoops49]

The third official that night is a Scott Doberstein. Mr. Doberstein was not an official for any previous WIAC games, but there is a Scott T. Doberstein who works as the athletic trainer at UW-Lacrosse. Perhaps that's nothing more than a strange coincidence, but I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

It was the "same" Scott Doberstein.  But that is a good thing.

Why?

If Stout was playing LaCrosse, I would have no fears if Scott was one of the officials.  He may work for LaCrosse, but he officiates like a pro, and is nothing if not totally unbiased.  Scott has officiated games between Stout and LaCrosse - and I fully expect him to offiate some more in the future.

I find it funny that you don't want to be accused of sour grapes, but you've spent enough time investigating the officials to know where one of them works.... 

Lefty-  I applaud you for doing the research.  Champ wanted investigating done as in the bulk vs champ debate on UWEC vs Stout wins. But shame on you lefty for doing some good investigative work on the officiating process. Hilarious.  ;

[Mr. Ypsi]

Wes, I understand your concern (and tend to agree), but it is not that cut-and-dried.  We have one soccer ref with ties to our high school (not an employee, but has coached many of the players and has a freshman daughter) who sometimes officiates our games.  He is an excellent ref, but in our (admittedly biased) view, we hate to see him because we're convinced he bends so far backwards to 'prove' he is impartial that the OTHER team gets the advantage.  After all, he knows the 'floppers' on OUR team, not the other!

[Usuallywrong24]

I have a huge problem with an employee of a school in Conference XYZ officiating an NCAA tournament game featuring another XYZ conference team.  My allegiance may lie with DePauw, but I feel that's not relevant to this issue as a whole.  DePauw didn't lose on Saturday because of LaCrosse's trainer being one of the officials.  They lost because they got outrebounded, allowed UWW to shoot 57% in the second half, and turned it over 19 times.  Maybe a 7 foul differential had something do with it, but the other reasons are greater than that one.

Now, I do not doubt that the gentlemen in question is a upstanding fellow who does not intentionally favor any of the participants of any game he officiates.  However, that should have no bearing on it.  The potential that an official could affect a tournament game because they're employed by a conference member school is enough that it should never happen.  Ever.

If the official is good at what they do, it shouldn't matter what game he/she officiates.

I do vehemently disagree with this statement, because I believe that having such a bias is not necessarily a conscious decision.  Listen, an official may not be intentionally jobbing one team or the other.  S/He may not go out there with the idea that he's sending Team X to the Final Four no matter what it takes.  Think about one foul call here that could go the other way, or a traveling call there that they weren't 100% sure on so they gave the benefit of the doubt to the player. Those can add up throughout 40 minutes.  That's not intentionally giving a team an edge, but it's still giving them an edge.

And again, I'm not saying that the official in question did anything to that effect, but the potential that he could have because of his familiarity with the Warhawks should be reason enough to prohibit such a thing from happening in the first place. 

Very well put! I thought I was crazy thinking this way after reading some other posts! 

[The Champ]

Wes, I understand your concern (and tend to agree), but it is not that cut-and-dried.  We have one soccer ref with ties to our high school (not an employee, but has coached many of the players and has a freshman daughter) who sometimes officiates our games.  He is an excellent ref, but in our (admittedly biased) view, we hate to see him because we're convinced he bends so far backwards to 'prove' he is impartial that the OTHER team gets the advantage.  After all, he knows the 'floppers' on OUR team, not the other!

Mr. Ypsi

Karma to you for understanding about the only negative for having someone like Scott officiating a game for his employer. 

He takes his officiating seriously, and is not going to show bias to his "team" in a game he officiates.  As you stated, if anything, it should be Lois - the HC at UWL - that should object to Scott officiating a UWL game.

It seems that some people want to have officials that have never seen either team play.  In a perfect world, that would be nice.  But it's not a perfect world.

Who officiates the Super Bowl?  Who officiates the World Series?  Who officiates the NBA Championship or the NHL Championship? 

They come from the same group of refs/officials that have worked the league all season long, and are recognized as some of the best in the leauge.  These officials could have hidden grudges or loyaties to the various teams or players, but they are hired to do a job and they do it.

If we tried to eliminate all officials who had ever officiated a game for any of the participants in the tournament, what would happen is that you'd probably end up eliminating all of the best officials after a certain period of time.

Give me the best officials available, regardless of how many times they've seen a team play.  I wouldn't want the least experienced officials making the calls in an important game, and I don't think most other people here would either.

[The Champ]

Lefty-  I applaud you for doing the research.  Champ wanted investigating done as in the bulk vs champ debate on UWEC vs Stout wins. But shame on you lefty for doing some good investigative work on the officiating process. Hilarious.  ;

Boy, another UWEC fan that still is spewing sour grapes...

It wasn't much of a debate.  bulk posting things that I knew were wrong, and I corrected him.  End of story.

DPU was casting aspersions against one of the best, most impartial officials in the WIAC.  Scott doesn't (and shouldn't) post here, so was unable to defend himself from the accusations.  I defended him, and backed it up with facts.  End of story.

[badgerwarhawk]

Well we're two days from game day and we've throughly digested the attendance issues at WW and, I've only myself to blame for this, officiating assignment issues in the NCAA DIII tourney. 

On the outside chance someone might be interested in the team representing the WIAC   I offer this article from today's WSJ which talks about the development of Dana Thompson and Tiffany Morton roommates who approach practice like a grudge match.   

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/sports/other/277635

[DPU3619]

Who officiates the Super Bowl?  Who officiates the World Series?  Who officiates the NBA Championship or the NHL Championship? 

Certainly a fair point, but that's the pros.  They employ all of their officials to officiate every team in the league.  They see EVERYBODY throughout the course of the year.  Mike Carey had seen both teams at least once when he officiated Super Bowl XLII this season.  I would reckon he's seen all NFL teams in the last 2 to 3 years.  Same goes for MLB umpires and NHL refs.  They travel all over the country officiating games.  By comparison, WIAC officials don't see SCAC teams. 

A more accurate comparison is the fact that Big Ten refs don't ref the BCS Championship when Ohio State plays in it.  That's regardless of how good that officiating crew may be.  SEC officials didn't ref the MBB National Championship Game when Florida played in it the last two years.  There are no PAC-10 umpires when USC is in the College World Series...etc etc etc.  Why?  To prevent bias.  And for that reason, there shouldn't be WIAC officials (or employees!) in the Elite Eight when a WIAC team is playing, regardless of the integrity or high moral standard that the official in question may have.  This isn't even about what kind of person Scott is.  I'm sure he's a great guy and a fantastic official.  This isn't a cheap shot at him directly.  This shouldn't ever happen at all.  Even when the best, most honorable official is the one in question.

Give me the best officials available, regardless of how many times they've seen a team play.  I wouldn't want the least experienced officials making the calls in an important game, and I don't think most other people here would either.

If this is what you're after, then send him to ref tourney games hosted by an MWC, MIAA, or CCIW team.  You're not losing the best officials, and there's no reason to bat an eye at him/her as a questionable selection on a crew.  The WIAC and it's schools shouldn't have any problem getting the best officials who have 100% complete neutrality.  I'm not asking you to go grab 3 scrubs who were reffing JV games in Green Bay last week.  I'm asking you to get 'em from some place where they haven't seen (or are connected to) either team in the game or the conference they play in.

Wes, I understand your concern (and tend to agree), but it is not that cut-and-dried.  We have one soccer ref with ties to our high school (not an employee, but has coached many of the players and has a freshman daughter) who sometimes officiates our games.  He is an excellent ref, but in our (admittedly biased) view, we hate to see him because we're convinced he bends so far backwards to 'prove' he is impartial that the OTHER team gets the advantage.  After all, he knows the 'floppers' on OUR team, not the other!

This got a good chuckle out of me.  I think it's kind of humorous because one of the officials we see for basketball 4 or 5 times a year is a Wabash grad.  I think he's a fantastic official, but I wouldn't want him in there in the tourney.  Is he trying to play it like he's a Wabash alum?  Maybe he shouldn't give us any calls because that's the way everybody expects to him officiate as a Wabash alum. On the other hand, is he giving us a break here or there because he doesn't want anybody to point to the fact that he's a Wabash alum?  It's just too complicated.  Even for an official that I think is one of the best we see throughout the year. 

[DPULefty22]

Champ... you are completely and utterly missing my point. I'm not casting any aspersions about your boy Doberstein. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy, good to his mother, and a fine official. I wasn't keeping track of which calls were made by which official on Saturday night. I am not saying, "These refs are blatantly biased towards UW-W and they wanted them to win, and DePauw got robbed. Also, Scott Doberstein hates puppies and is in Al-Qaida."

The point I am trying to make is that the NCAA should make every effort to secure a NEUTRAL officiating crew for championship tournament games. As usuallywrong and Mr. Ypsi pointed out, there are two sides to the idea of an official being more familiar with a certain team, and neither of them have any place in a championship tournament. If an offical is more familiar with a conference team that s/he's inclined, unconsciously or no, to give their players the benefit of the doubt on some calls - that's wrong. If an offical is more familiar with a conference team and is inclined, consciously, to not appear biased to the point of making more calls against their players - that's wrong, too.

I want to go back to my first post - the NCAA should avoid even the APPEARANCE of impropriety when selecting officials. I don't care if your boy Doberstein's the best whistle-blower since Mark Felt. That doesn't matter. It wouldn't matter if he were a crappy official, either. The point I've been trying to make is that ICH (Insert Conference Here) officials shouldn't be officiating games with one ICH team involved during NCAA championship tournament events. I don't understand what part of that you're not comprehending.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't know why the women's tournament doesn't take this more seriously. This is one thing the men's tournament does much better. Referees are consistently brought in from out of region, or at least out of conference.