WBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[PRF2009A]

In 2000-2001 stout tied for 3rd with 3 teams at 11-5.  (So you could say they tied for 5th?)
The following year they went 15-1 and won the conference. 

Before I make my response, please read it and understand it.  Don't get upset and attack me, attack my post if you think I'm wrong.

It's not that uncommon for a 3rd place team to go from 3rd to 1st in the WIAC.  Point did it just last year when they went from 3rd to 1st with a 12 - 4 record.

I'm glad you noticed that I posted that it was a 3 way tie for 3rd place with an 11 - 5 record when Stout went from 3rd to 1st.

For Point, Stout, EC and WW at this time, a 10 - 6 record is not considered to be a "good" season.

For LaCrosse, a 10 win WIAC season is a great year - anything better than that hasn't happened in LaCrosse since Ronald Reagan was President.

I have no problem stating that UWL had a good season, and that they may improve next year.  I just don't see UWL (with their history) going from 10 - 6 to winning the WIAC.

Until they can prove (in recent history) that they are capable of winning more than 10 games in a season, I'm a doubting  Thomas.

OK?

I agree with your points 100%.  Hard to put someone to the top if they've never been there before.  The only thing I got swaying my opinion otherwise is knowing some of the players on the team and the potential they have.   Every person that is a fan of their own team is going to have that opinion however. 

[badgerwarhawk]

Also, BW, how do you know Hendrickson was picked ahead of Flease in the conference player of the year voting?  Where can I see that voting?  I know they re-vote on the top 3 vote getters, but I didn't think those top 3 vote getters were ever made public?  I went on the conference website and didn't see anything that said who the top 3 were.  Obviously Hirrsig was one of them since they she won it, but no idea who the other two were. 

I have a source intimately familiar with the vote.   It was Hirssig, Henderson and Petersen in that order.

[closetothechest]

I know SP is only losing 3 pts and 3 boards per game, but this woman was a captain and had a lot of heart.  I watched the WIAC finals, and I am not sure that teams makes a second half run against WW without her.  She started the charge early in the second half.  If she isn't on the team this year, and SP loses that game, who knows if they get in the tournament?  Then there is no Elite 8 run. 

Would your opinions change then? 

LX didn't lose anyone. 

EC has the best combination of post players in the conference and their guards are a year older. 

WW has the best coach in the conference as she won Coach of the Year this year. 

It is more of a testament to the rest of the league then a knock on SP. 

WW was still the pre-season #1 without those two in 2008. 

Those three losses that I talked about weren't even close.  All by double digits.  Just looking at facts. 

Look, I would never make predictions before the fall cause we have no idea on transfers or recruits. I'm just trying to understand your logic.

LX didn't lose anyone- as compared to 3 pts and 3 reb for SP

EC has the best combination of post players in the conference and their guards are a year older.  Fair enough; but Points kids will all be older as well; not to mention Eau Claire was 8-8 and 10-17 overall

WW has the best coach in the conference as she won Coach of the Year this year.   WW may have the best coach in the conference (based on this logic) but Point has the best coach in the Region!

It is more of a testament to the rest of the league then a knock on SP.  

WW was still the pre-season #1 without those two in 2008. National Rankings mean nothing; especially in the pre-season. Syracuse and Texas proved that this year. In D3 no one gets to see more than a handful of teams ... that will never be a good barometer. The losses of seniors aren't even comparable.

Again, you might turn out correct. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how someone comes to that prediction days after the season ends with what we CURRENTLY know about these teams. By your reasoning I feel like you're actually making the case for Point to be picked 1st.

[Just Bill]

No. Windt is a great kid, but Flease and Peterson (and to a lesser extent Bandow) drive that team.

[The Champ]

I agree with your points 100%.  Hard to put someone to the top if they've never been there before.  The only thing I got swaying my opinion otherwise is knowing some of the players on the team and the potential they have.   Every person that is a fan of their own team is going to have that opinion however. 

Cool - glad we could move forward!

[The Champ]

4. SP- Needs to beat Stout at home and find out how to win at LX and EC.

Those three losses that I talked about weren't even close.  All by double digits.  Just looking at facts.  

In response to the first item - Prior to this season - Point had won their home game against Stout in Jan 08, Feb 07, Jan 06, Dec 04 and Jan 04.  On the road against EC Point won in Jan 09, Feb 08, Jan 07, Feb 06 and Feb 05.  As far as UWL goes, Point has won every game in LaCrosse but one - in Dec 05.

That pretty much shoots item #4 right out of the water.  Shirley only lost one of those games in the last 5 seasons out of a possible 15.  Why does Point need to "learn" how to win at home against Stout and how to win on the road against UWL and UWEC?

As to your second point - Windt played 12 minutes in that game.  Did her 12 minutes help?  Sure.  But if she's as good as you claim, wouldn't Shirley have had her play more?

[closetothechest]

SP had 8 newcomers on the team this year.  Meaning there is 8 people on that team who has never beaten Stout at home in the regular season, or won at EC or LX.  This is why they need to learn how to win those games.  

Pair this with 3-5 newcomers, what most schools bring in during an average year recuiting class, except for a few conference teams, that means they will have 11-13 players who have never won in those situations.  You simply can't show up and win because of who you are, as seen at Johnson Fieldhouse this year when Superior came in.

And about Windt, she has had two ACL operations done in two years and was playing her second game in 3 days.  That would probably be a reason why she didn't play more.

[The Champ]

SP had 8 newcomers on the team this year.  Meaning there is 8 people on that team who has never beaten Stout at home in the regular season, or won at EC or LX.  This is why they need to learn how to win those games.

Well, they had the following veteran players this year with these amounts of average playing time:  Bandow - 29.7, Flease - 31.2, Petersen - 28.5, Beuchel - 9.7, Coles 9.3 and Verdegan with 8.1.  Windt had 15.6.  All these players were on the team last year - several with more than just one year.  That's 6 returning players.  So this claim is rather pointless.

Pair this with 3-5 newcomers, what most schools bring in during an average year recuiting class, except for a few conference teams, that means they will have 11-13 players who have never won in those situations.

As you note, every team has newcomers.  Give Shirley some credit that she has a strong returning squad that has done quite well and has actually won games in those locations - despite your claims to the contrary as I've already documented. 

And about Windt, she has had two ACL operations done in two years and was playing her second game in 3 days.  That would probably e a reason why she didn't play more.

Windt's season average was 15.6.  In the first WIAC playoff game (with an extra day of rest) she only played 14 minutes.  In the second, as already mentioned, she  only played 12.

Regardless, 3 of her 4 teammates (on a short turnaround) played more than their season averages – Bandow – up 2.3 minutes (played 32), Flease – up 3.8 minutes (played 35), Avercamp – up 3 minutes (played 25).  Peterson was down 1.5 (played 27) and Windt was down 2.6 (played 12)

You mentioned before she was a team captain.  That honor most likely a result of showing the hard work and dedication it takes to come back from multiple knee surgeries and the fact she was the only senior on the team.  I don't have a problem with that – she earned the right to be captain most likely.

It seems the more you try and justify your position, the deeper hole you are in.  Maybe it's time to stop digging...

[Just Bill]

SP had 8 newcomers on the team this year.  Meaning there is 8 people on that team who has never beaten Stout at home in the regular season, or won at EC or LX.  This is why they need to learn how to win those games. 

Interesting how many qualifiers you needed to put on that game. So SP beat Stout at Johnson Fieldhouse and they beat Stout at home in the postseason, but somehow the regular season loss at home is the big red checkmark against them?

Might I suggest the winning at Illinois Wesleyan in the NCAA Tournament was a far more challenging and hostile environment than EC, Stout or LC.

Honestly, they way you talk you would think Mitchell Hall was Cameron Indoor Stadium. Last time I was there, they could have had a buy 1 ticket, get 10 free special had still not had a sellout.

Also, La Crosse doesn't have a single player on their roster who has ever won a game at SP, EC or Stout. 0-11 over the past three seasons.  Why doesn't La Crosse have to carry the burden of "learning to win at those places"?  Why is that only SP's problem?

[closetothechest]

Champ,

First off, just because the coach at UWSP has won in many situations, it does not mean the players have.  SP was a young team this year.  Flease, Bandow, and Petersen had extensive playing against @ EC and LX and home against Stout during the last wins, but those other players did not.  Sometimes players can get intimidated going into a tough place like Zorn, and since they are the ones actually shooting the shots, this is something to look into. 

I never said Shirley has never won in these places.  For my money, she is the best in the conference.  I am not worried about her winning anywhere, but as I said before, she doesn't shoot any shots. 

And about Windt and her playing time, I understand she had a lot of teammates who played more minutes against WW than Stout, but all of those teammates you mentioned didn't have two knee operations.  They are younger and didn't have her body.  I was just giving you a possible explanation. 

SP is going to be really tough.  I am just saying they are going to overcome this games to win.   

[closetothechest]

For those home losses against Stout, SP was as hot as they ever have been, they both had lengthy winning streaks, 10 or more games, when they lost at home.  So beating Stout at home should be a goal.  I know they won @ IWU, but that wasn't a conference game and won't count in the standings.  It was a huge win, but doesn't count in the WIAC.  

I know Mitchell isn't a very scarey place to play, but they still lost there this year, by double figures.  And since they play there the last game of the regular season again, its going to be a huge game.  A must win most likely to win the conference title.  Same situation as this year, and they need a difference result.  

And LX did beat Stout this year, at Johnson Fieldhouse.  The home loss against Stout was early in the year.  They were the hottest team in the conference until the tournament.  To think this team won't be a top 3 team is dumb.  They got third, sorry tied for fifth i mean, this year and have everyone back. Just based on what they have coming back, five starters, they have to be considered in contention.  And obviously LX has to win in these situations too.  I am just giving reasons why I think they might finish a head of SP.  Both are going to be really good teams with good seasons. 

SP had 8 newcomers on the team this year.  Meaning there is 8 people on that team who has never beaten Stout at home in the regular season, or won at EC or LX.  This is why they need to learn how to win those games.  

Interesting how many qualifiers you needed to put on that game. So SP beat Stout at Johnson Fieldhouse and they beat Stout at home in the postseason, but somehow the regular season loss at home is the big red checkmark against them?

Might I suggest the winning at Illinois Wesleyan in the NCAA Tournament was a far more challenging and hostile environment than EC, Stout or LC.

Honestly, they way you talk you would think Mitchell Hall was Cameron Indoor Stadium. Last time I was there, they could have had a buy 1 ticket, get 10 free special had still not had a sellout.

Also, La Crosse doesn't have a single player on their roster who has ever won a game at SP, EC or Stout. 0-11 over the past three seasons.  Why doesn't La Crosse have to carry the burden of "learning to win at those places"?  Why is that only SP's problem?

[The Champ]

For those home losses against Stout, SP was as hot as they ever have been, they both had lengthy winning streaks, 10 or more games, when they lost at home.  So beating Stout at home should be a goal

Wining every game should be a goal – home or on the road.  Stout should have beat SP at Johnson Fieldhouse.  But it didn't happen.

I know Mitchell isn't a very scarey place to play, but they still lost there this year, by double figures.

SP has won in Mitchell 21 out of the last 23 years.  You said they had to LEARN how to win there.  They know.  And don't try and bring up the "newcomers" haven't won there – SP has plenty of players (as I've previously listed) that have won there.

I am just giving reasons why I think they might finish a head of SP.  Both are going to be really good teams with good seasons.

But that is NOT what you have been saying.  May I remind you of what you posted that started this discussion?

Here are my predictions:

1. LX- Great Team coming back.  No seniors, Lang and Frank are ready for big years.  How was Lang not even honorable mention all conference?  I am sure Stout would have voted for her. 

2. EC- Post play should still be excellant, and Olson is coming along.  Along with other swing player. 

3. WW- I am sure the reigning Coach of the Year has something up her sleeve.  Just won't be a WIAC conference tournament title. 

4. SP- Needs to beat Stout at home and find out how to win at LX and EC. 

For SP, 4th place is a bad year.  They haven't finished lower than 3rd place this decade – and you're picking them for 4th place.

For UWL – 4th place is a great year.  It's been 23 seasons since UWL finished alone in the standings higher than 4th place and you're picking them to win the WIAC.

Your own words contradict what you said yesterday.  Your own words have presented incorrect information as fact.

Time to stop digging when you can't see out of the hole your digging...

[closetothechest]

History doesn't matter as much in this league as you think.  WW didn't have a lot of history until they cracked the top four.  Oshkosh was historically a top four team until recent.  Living in the past will keep you in the past. 

Superior didn't have very much history winning at Stout until this year.  All it takes is one game to change the whole conference race.  I am sure you would have called anyone crazy who predicted that upset, but it happened.   

SP has had a tough time playing in LX in the last five years, going only 3-2 and none of those games were really pretty.  They had a buzzer beater there two years ago and then this year was just awful.  They still won there because LX didn't have their talent.  Now it seems like LX is getting some talent, so I am not going to mark down a "W" just because it is SP at LX.  Are they going to be favored? Maybe, but its not a gimme win. 

About the newcomers, only Flease, Petersen, Bandow and Coles have any playing time of a won game there.  You can list all of the other players, but since none of those players played in that last win, I am not sure they know what its like to win there.  And since they are going to have 11-13 players who have never played in a win there, 75% of the team, it matters. 

And if they know how to win at Mitchell Hall, why didn't they win there this year?  You can't say they overlooked the hottest team in the conference at the time.  You can't say they had nothing on the line as they were playing for a conference title. 

SP got fourth place in 2007.  So they did get lower than third. 

[The Champ]

History doesn't matter as much in this league as you think.  WW didn't have a lot of history until they cracked the top four.  Oshkosh was historically a top four team until recent.

History in the WIAC tells me that UWSP, with HC Shirley Egner, is a quality program with a winning tradition (382 wins against 175 losses).

UWL's history under HC Lois Herreen is a decent program with a losing tradition (135 wins against 147 losses).

Your reference to UWO doesn't recognize a significant change in that program – Pam Ruder led a program and developed and continued a winning tradition (203 wins against 46 losses) and Terri Schumacher (52 wins against 72 losses) took over as HC and things went south.

Living in the past will keep you in the past.

I'd just like to remind you of a little more famous quote... "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

SP has had a tough time playing in LX in the last five years, going only 3-2 and none of those games were really pretty.  They had a buzzer beater there two years ago and then this year was just awful.  They still won there because LX didn't have their talent.  Now it seems like LX is getting some talent, so I am not going to mark down a "W" just because it is SP at LX.  Are they going to be favored? Maybe, but its not a gimme win.

1/22/05 Stevens Point 73-59 LC
12/10/05 La Crosse 62-55 LC
2/3/07 Stevens Point 62-49 LC
2/20/08 Stevens Point 62-48 LC
12/10/08 Stevens Point 58-56 LC

Let's look at this.  Prior to this season, going back 5 years we have 1 win for UWL, one close win for UWSP, and 3 wins by 13 or more points for UWSP.

A 13+ point win is a solid win against a decent team in the WIAC.  I didn't watch those games, so I can't judge whether they were pretty or not, but I'm sure that most reasonable people would not say they were ugly wins.

About the newcomers, only Flease, Petersen, Bandow and Coles have any playing time of a won game there.  You can list all of the other players, but since none of those players played in that last win, I am not sure they know what its like to win there.  And since they are going to have 11-13 players who have never played in a win there, 75% of the team, it matters.

How many of those 11 – 13 players that have never played in a win in Mitchell are going to see significant playing time on a squad that is returning all but one player?  Maybe having the new replacement for departed starter will actually improve the team...

FWIW – UWL lost both at home and on the road to both WW and EC last year.  Maybe they just need to learn how to beat those two teams before you crown them WIAC Champions...

And if they know how to win at Mitchell Hall, why didn't they win there this year?  You can't say they overlooked the hottest team in the conference at the time.  You can't say they had nothing on the line as they were playing for a conference title.

No team wins every game every year. 

The hottest team in the WIAC?   UWL was on a 3 game winning streak (over Superior, UWO and a declining RF team), but UWW also had a 3 game winning streak.  And it was WW that had defeated UWL in their game before the start of the UWL win streak.

UWL was playing for something to.  A loss would have put them on the road in the WIAC tourney.

SP got fourth place in 2007.  So they did get lower than third.

Yes they did.  I made a mistake.  They had a 10 – 6 record and finished in 4th place all by themselves.  Points worst year equals UWL's best this century.

Keep digging, I think your almost to China....

[closetothechest]

Coach Herren does not have a winning record overall, but she is 81-50 in the last five years.  That is not an awful record and it looks like she is turning things around as she has a 35-17 record the last two years.  Are they going to improve again? I think so.   

Average score the last five meetings in LX, SP 58, LX 57.6.  Pretty close.  And only averaging 58 points is not pretty.  If a team averaged 58 points a game for a season, it would have been good for dead last in the WIAC this year, and 8th place the four years before that.  Sorry, but thats not a very pretty game. 

About the returners, since only four have playing time in a game won at Mitchell, I am going to assume that SP is going to play more than four players that game.  That means at least 5-6 players who are going to play have never experienced a positive experience there in a win. 

Thanks for backing up my hottest team argument with the numbers.  If you go back a little farther to Jan 27, LX was 5-1, and WW was 5-2.  That win at Stout was when they started playing better and turned their season around.  I should have put a date in there when talking about how hot they were. 

And I like how you say we have to look at history, but you decline to look at recent history at Mitchell.  What is more important, things that happened 20 years ago or things that happened in the last couple years?  I think it is obvious.