WBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[The Champ]

Yawn. No, Champ, you don't have to explain the history of the Stout program again.

Nothing like a little needling you to get your feathers up, though. Ha.

Funny, I thought it was hilarious that (to the best of my knowledge) you haven't posted in this forum since the 2009/2010 WBB season started, and I make a comment about Coach T hitting a milestone that no HC in the WIAC has ever hit before, and all of a sudden - who pops out to talk about winning percentage vs. actual games won???

I have the greatest respect for Shirley Egner, T's closest competitor in career wins, because took over a struggling program and has built a winner like T has. 

Neither T's nor Shirley's predecessor totalled 20 WIAC wins.  Lisa Stone, Tonja's predecessor won 277 games...

Tonja took over from Lisa, who had a .824 winning percentage and taken the program downhill - including two non winning WIAC seasons. 

That's not to say she's a terrible coach.  She walked into the best possible situation and has done a decent job.  But she has yet to show consistency in fielding highly competitive teams in the WIAC.  Tied for 1st, 4th, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 3rd, tied for 1st and 3rd....

Compare that to her predecessor's 2nd, 1st, tied for 4th, tied for 1st, 1st, tied for 2nd, tied for 1st, 2nd, tied for 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 1st.

All of a sudden, Tonja's .739 doesn't look as impressive.

[badgerwarhawk]

Some would argue that maintaining a dynasty is just as difficult, if not more so, than building one.  Not that I'd argue about the job Thomas has done.  

[Voice of the Titans]

Good to see a new officiating face at the UWO/UWW game Wednesday. Mind you, he was still pretty bad, but good to see a new face within the crews. And kudos to the fan in back of the scorers table who TWICE called for a 10-second call as UWO was bringing the ball up. One day you'll get that call, man.

[hoop_junkie]

Some would argue that maintaining a dynasty is just as difficult, if not more so, than building one.  Not that I'd argue about the job Thomas has done.  

Actually, I would argue that maintaining a dynasty is much easier than rebuilding a program. EC has had some very nice players come in as freshman in recent years and then leave the program because they didn't get any PT and I truly believe that's why they find themselves 5-10 at the moment. If you throw those kids a bone every once in a while when you're up 25, maybe they'd stick around and help maintain a program. Last year EC had 2 scholarship type kids in Kaylee Cardinal and Brit Hoover that hardly got off the bench all year. Both kids were "high end" d3 recruits and had the ability to play at the scholarship level and Tonja never gave them a sniff so they moved on this year. If I were a HS senior looking to play in college I wouldn't go anywhere near that program, given its track record of letting solid freshman players rot on the bench.

[Just Bill]

Good to see a new officiating face at the UWO/UWW game Wednesday. Mind you, he was still pretty bad, but good to see a new face within the crews. And kudos to the fan in back of the scorers table who TWICE called for a 10-second call as UWO was bringing the ball up. One day you'll get that call, man.

I don't think I've attended a college women's game in my life where I didn't hear that at least once. You'd think after 20 years people would get it.

[PRF2009A]

Good to see a new officiating face at the UWO/UWW game Wednesday. Mind you, he was still pretty bad, but good to see a new face within the crews. And kudos to the fan in back of the scorers table who TWICE called for a 10-second call as UWO was bringing the ball up. One day you'll get that call, man.

I don't think I've attended a college women's game in my life where I didn't hear that at least once. You'd think after 20 years people would get it.

You gotta love that one... Always makes me laugh.

I did however have my first one of those moments this year.  The newer rule where you can turn over when you are on the ground with the ball and not get called for traveling.  Some how I had never heard of that and am still baffled by it.

[bulk19]

Champ says, regarding Coach Englund =

That's not to say she's a terrible coach.  She walked into the best possible situation and has done a decent job.  But she has yet to show consistency in fielding highly competitive teams in the WIAC.  Tied for 1st, 4th, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 3rd, tied for 1st and 3rd....

She's done pretty well on the big stage in the NCAA tournament during her tenure in the conference; her wins are second among active coaches there during that time...

Oh wait. She inherited one of those teams. All she, as a rookie collegiate coach,  had to do was wind them up, let 'em go, and sit back and have a smoke. Ha.
You are right. She walked into the best possible situation. It's always easy so for a new head coach to fill in the big shoes and not feel the pressure to win and continue what her predecessor has done. It's always easier staying on the top of the mountain, rather than making that climb up... After all, in the history of sports, every team that has been loaded prior to a new coach coming in has continued to win, right? Ha.

By the way... Did Lisa Stone inherit a loaded team? I think not. Go back that far and check the records... Then, combine her record and Englund's over their time and see how their combined totals stack up to the two coaches with the most wins in conference history. Oh, no. Wait. That's not fair; we can't compare the 20 years of Blugold basketball over that time to Point and Stout, because UWEC has had two coaches, not just one, like those programs. I forget... Ha.

It's too bad Lisa Stone didn't stick around, instead of eventually moving up to D1 programs. Ha.

Hoops junkie = where are the two players you mentioned who left UWEC playing now? Seems to me they would have had their opportunities to get some minutes this year on a team that has but one senior, as opposed to one with three senior guards, two of whom were all conference, last year???  

There. I'm done. You can have the last word, Champ, seeings I'm sure you'll take it.

[hoop_junkie]

I believe Brittni Hoover transferred to St. Mary's. Coming out of HS, I believe she was offered a scholarship to University of Mary (d2) and I know that there were other scholarship type suitors trying to get in with her when they heard she was looking to transfer and the same is true for Cardinal. Idk if those schools were D2's or JUCOs or what, but I heard that there were scholarship schools in pursuit of both. Here's a link from a post on wissports I found in regards to the whole retention of players situation at EC...

http://www.wissports.net/playground/tm.aspx?m=1095060

[The Champ]

By the way... Did Lisa Stone inherit a loaded team? I think not. Go back that far and check the records... Then, combine her record and Englund's over their time and see how their combined totals stack up to the two coaches with the most wins in conference history. Oh, no. Wait. That's not fair; we can't compare the 20 years of Blugold basketball over that time to Point and Stout, because UWEC has had two coaches, not just one, like those programs. I forget... Ha.

When have I EVER said anything bad about Lisa Stone.  I think, and always have, that her record at UWEC was outstanding.  Did you notice I used her record of excellence to compare to Tonja's???

Lisa built a program, just like Coach T has done.  Of course, the UWEC program was not the shambles that Stout's was (UWEC was 8 - 8 (17 - 10 overall) the seaon before Lisa started and had had 3 consecutive losing seasons in conference before that. 

However Stout hadn't won 8 conference games in their history prior to Coach T.

Regardless, Lisa Stone is not a WIAC coach anymore.  She moved up.  Good for her.

There. I'm done. You can have the last word, Champ, seeings I'm sure you'll take it.

If you didn't want to have this discussion, why did YOU start it? 

Like I posted earlier, YOU hadn't made a single post on the WIAC WBB forum since the season started. 

YOU came in and took a shot at Coach T, and when it backfired on YOU, it's time to run away and hide.

Have a nice day, bulk...

[The Champ]

Some would argue that maintaining a dynasty is just as difficult, if not more so, than building one.  Not that I'd argue about the job Thomas has done.  

There is some merit to your position, BW.

But when the only point that a certain poster wants to make is winning percentage, taking over a dynasty sure makes it easier to have a good WP, vs. taking over a team that effectively had no WBB program.

Now if that poster's favorite coach had gone up to Superior and taken over that program and after 9 years had a .739 winning percentage (through last season - it's lower now), I could see him making the case against Coach T's 397 wins to her 190.

But she didn't.  She took over a dynasty.

[bulk19]

By the way... Did Lisa Stone inherit a loaded team? I think not. Go back that far and check the records... Then, combine her record and Englund's over their time and see how their combined totals stack up to the two coaches with the most wins in conference history. Oh, no. Wait. That's not fair; we can't compare the 20 years of Blugold basketball over that time to Point and Stout, because UWEC has had two coaches, not just one, like those programs. I forget... Ha.

When have I EVER said anything bad about Lisa Stone.  I think, and always have, that her record at UWEC was outstanding.  Did you notice I used her record of excellence to compare to Tonja's???

Lisa built a program, just like Coach T has done.  Of course, the UWEC program was not the shambles that Stout's was (UWEC was 8 - 8 (17 - 10 overall) the seaon before Lisa started and had had 3 consecutive losing seasons in conference before that.  

However Stout hadn't won 8 conference games in their history prior to Coach T.

Regardless, Lisa Stone is not a WIAC coach anymore.  She moved up.  Good for her.

There. I'm done. You can have the last word, Champ, seeings I'm sure you'll take it.

If you didn't want to have this discussion, why did YOU start it?  

Like I posted earlier, YOU hadn't made a single post on the WIAC WBB forum since the season started.  

YOU came in and took a shot at Coach T, and when it backfired on YOU, it's time to run away and hide.

Have a nice day, bulk...

Sorry, Champ. I don't run and hide. You fell for the head fake. Ha. You sure get your feathers ruffled up when I needle you about winning percentages. Ha. I'll try not to poke or jab you any more, seeings you are so sensitive...

Let the record show you first brought up the 400 wins, and compared Coach T to his current coaching colleagues... Can one not comment on your posts? Or is your word gospel, the be all and end all, the only voice that matters?

In your post you were the one who brought up the other coaches, and proceeded to project how long it would take for the others to reach that mark.... Sorry, pal. You did the math and made the projections, not me. But if you want to play that game, project out how many wins Stone would have in a 23-year career at UWEC had she stayed there... Play with those numbers and see who would be the all-time leader in wins... Or are you the only one on here who is allowed to project out stats and speculate???

Coach Thomas is a great coach; I didn't take a shot at him, nor have I ever said you've said Stone is a bad coach. (Your mentioning the other coaches in your post could be construed as cheap shots, too, by the way.) But when one wants to base a conference record that is based in part on longevity, one must consider all the factors. Point being, UWEC has had two coaches over that time period, who, combined, have a better winning percentage and more wins than Coach Thomas.

As far as my not posting this season? Your point is? I've been active on other D3 boards here daily... And I've followed this forum daily, and the league, far, far, far longer than you have. But I don't generally feel it's fair to analyze or comment on games I have not seen (or, in some cases, heard on the radio), so I haven't posted. I don't merely regurgitate from the box score... I haven't seen the 'Golds this season.

Hey Champ? By the way? How do you know Coach Englund is my favorite coach? How do you know it isn't Stone? How do you know, since I also attended UWSP for post-graduate studies, that it isn't Egner?


Also, since you like facts so much. You might want to correct Coach Englund's career win total. Ha.

Ok. Your turn.

[billys]

I believe Brittni Hoover transferred to St. Mary's. Coming out of HS, I believe she was offered a scholarship to University of Mary (d2) and I know that there were other scholarship type suitors trying to get in with her when they heard she was looking to transfer and the same is true for Cardinal. Idk if those schools were D2's or JUCOs or what, but I heard that there were scholarship schools in pursuit of both. Here's a link from a post on wissports I found in regards to the whole retention of players situation at EC...

http://www.wissports.net/playground/tm.aspx?m=1095060

I think this is a good discussion but I think there's a different perspective on the same idea that is working against UWEC and could soon start working against some of the other top dogs. (I'll also add I don't think Hoover and Cardinal were scholarship-type kids ... not at a good scholarship program at least, which University of Mary is not)

At any rate; I believe the perception at UWEC the last few years based on all the defections is ... recruit 10 kids to come in every year; 2 play the other 8 get left behind when the next class of 10 comes in ... repeat. Therefore you take the 2 kids that can help you right away and don't develop the rest; or many of the rest. So high school coaches are hesitant to push their kids to UWEC cause if they're not ready immediately they're going to be done or have to transfer. There's a natual weeding out process because as well all know as good as you were in high school sometimes you just can't play in the college game. Happens all the time. That said, there is also a lot of trust in the process and the message the coach gives a kid at the D3 level. Right now I think the perceived message at EC is not good. Real or not it's out there.

[Just Bill]

I believe Brittni Hoover transferred to St. Mary's. Coming out of HS, I believe she was offered a scholarship to University of Mary (d2) and I know that there were other scholarship type suitors trying to get in with her when they heard she was looking to transfer and the same is true for Cardinal. Idk if those schools were D2's or JUCOs or what, but I heard that there were scholarship schools in pursuit of both. Here's a link from a post on wissports I found in regards to the whole retention of players situation at EC...

http://www.wissports.net/playground/tm.aspx?m=1095060

I think this is a good discussion but I think there's a different perspective on the same idea that is working against UWEC and could soon start working against some of the other top dogs. (I'll also add I don't think Hoover and Cardinal were scholarship-type kids ... not at a good scholarship program at least, which University of Mary is not)

At any rate; I believe the perception at UWEC the last few years based on all the defections is ... recruit 10 kids to come in every year; 2 play the other 8 get left behind when the next class of 10 comes in ... repeat. Therefore you take the 2 kids that can help you right away and don't develop the rest; or many of the rest. So high school coaches are hesitant to push their kids to UWEC cause if they're not ready immediately they're going to be done or have to transfer. There's a natual weeding out process because as well all know as good as you were in high school sometimes you just can't play in the college game. Happens all the time. That said, there is also a lot of trust in the process and the message the coach gives a kid at the D3 level. Right now I think the perceived message at EC is not good. Real or not it's out there.

Frankly, this is one reason that I tend to gravitate toward Point and Coach Egner.  No 25-person rosters, no 12-person recruiting classes. Shirley brings in 5-6 kids a year and commits to them. In return, they commit back to the program. Naturally, 1 or 2 kids might fall off the map, but it’s almost never because they didn’t get a fair shot to earn playing time. When there are only 12-15 kids at practice, everyone’s going to get their chance sooner or later.

This isn’t a criticism of how other schools do it. In fact, in Division III, without scholarships and with student-athletes with wide and varied interests, it makes far more sense to bring a load of kids knowing that many won’t be around for year two. I know Point has been burned with small (2-4 persons) recruiting classes from time to time because of the small pool of players they start with. And Point has also been in some tough spots in terms of depth when the injury bug strikes.

No one can argue with the success of other WIAC programs and I wholeheartedly support each coach running their program as they see fit, but the UWSP way is the method and philosophy that rings truest to me and I feel rings truest to Division III. Even if it occasionally backfires, it’s worth it to me as a fan.

[Just Bill]

Just Bill -

How far back do you go as far as WIAC hoops? If I remember correctly, you're an old-timer historian-like poster, correct?  

That being said, if my assumption (I hate that word. Ha.) is correct, how would you compare the talent on the Pointer 2002 National champs team with some of the other top teams in league history? I'd be interested to see your take on how some of those teams might match up against each other?

For instance, how do you think the '96 Titans champs would fare against them? And pick a UWEC/WW/Stout team, too, just to make things interesting...

Others, chime in, too.  

Bulk,
Yes, I'm old.  I go back to the 90's but I never did see the 1996 UW-Oshkosh team play. I can't make a genuine evaluation of a team I've never seen, but logic tells me there's a pretty good chance that an undefeated national champ is the best team our league has ever had.

The 2002 Point national champ team is the best I have seen (feel free to calculate my Point bias). They were just more talented at every position than any team I've seen since. Their Achilles' heel of course, was that they simply did not match up well with Stout that year. I believe Point was more talented position-by-position than Stout, but Stout's incredible team speed was something Point couldn't handle.
Those two losses to Stout probably helped set the table for the tournament run. Webster, Marymount and St. Lawrence were all teams that thought they were fast, but they weren't Stout fast. After dealing with Stout, no one else looked as speedy.

Point was just too big for most of D-III to handle. They went 5-7, 5-10, 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 in the starting lineup and then brought athleticism in 5-10 Nechuta and 5-10 Heuer from the bench. And every 6-0 footer could shoot the mid-range jumper.  Point would simply look around for the frontcourt player with the best matchup and feed them until the defense changed.  Then they'd do it again. Their frontline passed so well, that those high-low, post-to-post passes were nearly indefensible for most teams. Eventually teams would have four and five defenders in the paint and Kraemer and Schmitt could spend all day setting their feet for open three-point shots.

They would sometimes put Nechuta or Heuer in for Schmitt, the point guard, and play 6-0 Schultz at the point. At that point there was simply no matching up with them. They were able to beat Wash U. because no one had ever been able to match up and play Wash U. head on, man-to-man, same offensive style and get away with it for four years. I think Wash U. couldn't believe this team was doing just what they do and beating them with it.

Later in their careers foul trouble would be a constant battle for Nechuta (and to a lesser degree for Heuer), but imagine them on this team when they were only playing 15 minutes a game. They could play full speed, all out, wreak havoc for five minutes at a time and not have to worry about playing long enough to foul out. A common line for Nechuta might be 12 points, 7 rebounds, 5 steal, 3 fouls in 14 minutes.

I've always felt the 2003 Eau Claire team was almost a carbon copy of the 2002 Point team. Experienced front court, that opened up wide open three point looks, and a handful of defenders who can shut down the other team's best player. They looked so much like last year's UWSP team that it seemed scary at times.

I think Stout's best teams that I saw were the Duoss-led 2006 and 2007 teams that went to the NCAA's. Coach T recognized that he had a stud in the middle and if he pulled back the reins on the run-and-gun, just a little bit, it would give them a chance to get Duoss the ball more often. That slight (and brilliant) concession by Coach T to slow down the pace just a little bit, made all the difference in the world. There were other times in Stout's past that they had a potentially dominant post player (Bree Mahone, anyone?), but seemed so committed to playing fast that they couldn't get their post player involved before shooting a 3 or throwing it away. In 2006 and 2007, Coach T found that balance and Stout's opponents were in trouble.  IF you beat them down the court and avoided giving up the layup, they could wait for Duoss and pound the ball inside for a layup or a kick out three. That's just too many options for most D-III teams to defend for 40 minutes.

[bulk19]

I believe the word deflections may be an assumption? It does suggest negative connotations, however...

A player would only be deflecting if he/she goes to another school and continues playing there, right? Do we have numbers on how many players "deflect" from one school to another? Because he/she is not on the roster, does that mean he/she actually did so? Or did the player choose not to play? I'm not prepared to make those assumptions...

I didn't realize that a person who was recruited one year and on the roster automatically gets that spot the next year? Perhaps the person has been beaten out by players who are just plain better and fit the system better?

Or perhaps the student transfered for academic purposes??? This level, after all, does emphasize the student part of the equation.

Or, perhaps the person did indeed go to further her athletics career and playing time...

But in the case of UWEC, and the link provided, I don't know that it has been established that the three players in question deflected. One player, I believe, is still at UWEC. Perhaps she is transferring. The other, if I remember correctly, is still there, too, but has had injuries and may have decided to hang it up. The third player listed? I have not been able to track her down, to see if she had in fact "deflected."

I'm not being critical of other coaches, either... I just think deflected is a negative term... Is that what we call those who come from other schools, who transfer into programs, as well?

I would tend to believe that the respective coaches in the league emphasize their philosophies/styles and expectations, so the recruits have some idea of what will be in store for them. Things may not always turn out that way, however.

As far as EC goes, though, over the last few seasons, the upperclassmen, seniors especially, play. Any recruit who looks at the stats can see that. Although the irony this year is that there is but one senior and two juniors on the Blugold roster...

As far back as the archives go, the list of recruits at UWEC for the last five years has not been 10, but for one season, when 6 of them stayed all four years...
Else, it's been 7, 7, 5, 4 and the 10...