WBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[JMM]

Concur whole heartily great guard first. The rest later. Love Messick but concur Julia H reigns supreme in the WIAC. Love those UWW outsiders. Great Seniors who have had a grand career.

[hoop_junkie]

Have followed EC for last 7-8 years. Messick is the real deal. She has always showed a maturity that sets her apart from many. She always knows where the basket is and cooly and calmly finds it. Plays excellent defense with very limited fouling. Can't really compare Hirsig and Messick. They are two different players. Hirsig is controlled power and muscle. Messick is more shooting finese. I think Hirsig is the overall best in the WIAC in the last 8 years. Easily beats out Douros and much better than Morton - who I think was very one dimensional. We will see how Messick fairs in this year and next. If EC can solve their #2 gaurd problem, they will be a force to be reckoned with next year. Plendil just gets better and better. Olson and Bingea are also doing well. The defense is very good this year and will only get better. If asked who I thought was the best EC player when running on all cylinders, I would say Witt. There has been alot of talent on EC. Muggenberg who holds the single game WIAC 3pt record. Burns who could take over a game at any time. Fermstad, Witt, Archiewiski, Messick, Spaeth, Channing Wozniak. All that said, SP always finds a way to win.

No way is Hirrsig better than Duoss! I think Julia is a great player but Kelsey Duoss might be the best post player of all time in the WIAC, and she is definitely the best player the WIAC has had in the past 8 years. Duoss played on a better Stout team and got less minutes than Julia does but her numbers were MASSIVE considering she would play about 18-24 min a game. Duoss made the D3 all decade team, took her team to the sweet 16, played professionally and was ABSOLUTELY the most dominant force the WIAC has had in the last 10 years.

As for posts being easier to defend than guards...I agree, however, why can't more ppl stop a player like Hirrsig then? Dick Bennett used to take pride in never allowing a great inside player to beat his teams and that was a very successful strategy for him at GB, UW and WSU. I think the reason is that it takes a tremendous amount of time to become a great defensive team. No one program in the WIAC has shown me that they know how to slow Hirrsig down as of yet and I don't see that changing. So, until one of these coaches shows me that they know how to double the post, lock up the ball side perimeter guard, rotate and close out to the kick out from the post, then the notion that stopping a post is easier than stopping a guard is null. You simply cannot play a player like Hirrsig one on one on the block, unless you've got a player with great length and superior athleticism.

[The Champ]

No way is Hirrsig better than Duoss! I think Julia is a great player but Kelsey Duoss might be the best post player of all time in the WIAC, and she is definitely the best player the WIAC has had in the past 8 years. Duoss played on a better Stout team and got less minutes than Julia does but her numbers were MASSIVE considering she would play about 18-24 min a game. Duoss made the D3 all decade team, took her team to the sweet 16, played professionally and was ABSOLUTELY the most dominant force the WIAC has had in the last 10 years.

I've watched both girls play their entire careers.  They are both great post players.  I won't even try to say which one is better - because I'm just not really sure which one is.

But I have to point out some flaws in your post.

Duoss averaged 22.8 minutes per game her senior year.  Julia is averaging 24.8 this season.  I don't think you expected it to be that close.

Duoss averaged 15.8 PPG as a senior.  Julia is averaging 21.7 this season.

They are different players, both dominating in their own ways.

I'm glad to have had the opportunity to watch these young women play BB and to get to know them and their families.

[jam8788]

No way is Hirrsig better than Duoss! I think Julia is a great player but Kelsey Duoss might be the best post player of all time in the WIAC, and she is definitely the best player the WIAC has had in the past 8 years.

What about Kay Mikolajczak of UWO?  She received a postgraduate scholarship of $7,500 by the NCAA, 2004 post-season honors included All-America first team, she also was named to the All-WIAC first team for the second straight year and she was presented the 2004 Jostens Trophy, an award recognizing the most outstanding female student-athlete in NCAA Division III basketball.  She also played professional basketball after she left UWO. 

Her senior year she lead UW-Oshkosh to a 21-6 record, a share of the WIAC title by averaging 17.1 points, 9.1 rebounds, 2.2 assists and 1.3 blocked shots per game. Mikolajczak led the WIAC in 2004 with 12 double-doubles, including 20 points and 15 rebounds in a 79-77 overtime loss to UW-Stevens Point (against Amanda Nechuta). She also scored a career-best 26 points and grabbed 10 rebounds in an 85-79 victory over UW-Stout (against Duoss).

[hoop_junkie]

When I say Duoss is better than Hirrsig, I'm not talking about their stats. Duoss is a much bigger presence than Hirrsig. When you have a 6'3 player with her kind of length + her ability level offensively, it changes the game for your team in a number of ways. You block/alter more shots, eat up more space in the lane, often times get more rebounds, etc. There are so many things that length can do for your team. If you can control the lane offensively and defensively you're going to win a ton of games and Duoss did that for Stout on both ends. Not to say Hirrsig is a bad defender, but she just doesn't have the same size and length so therefore she's not the caliber that Duoss is. I will give Hirrsig the edge in one department over Duoss, in that she plays harder and gets after it more underneath. Duoss was also a "can't miss" D1 prospect coming out of HS and even started some games as a frosh at UIC. Hirrsig had no D1 interest and very little if any D2 interest. They're both great, but Duoss is a lot better and ultimately does more for a team.

[The Champ]

When I say Duoss is better than Hirrsig, I'm not talking about their stats.

And I didn't say that Julia was better.  Of course, I didn't say Kelsey was either.  They are different players with different skill sets.  Kelsey was a great shot blocker, Julia has been a better rebounder for example.

Mainly I was trying to point out your error on playing time.  It seemed like you were trying to say that the difference in playing time was much greater than it really is.

[closetothechest]

Nechuta won 2 conference titles, 2 league POY awards, made it to two final fours, won one national title, and one national player of the year award.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but the best player from this conference in the last 8 years was her.

[JMM]

Relative to stopping Hirsig, EC has been very effective - need to check out the stats. Saw Kelsey play alot of games, very dominant and absolutely superb. Don't know the answer but often wondered why She didn't play more. Could it have been conditioning or something.

[stoutguy]

Relative to stopping Hirsig, EC has been very effective - need to check out the stats. Saw Kelsey play alot of games, very dominant and absolutely superb. Don't know the answer but often wondered why She didn't play more.[/b] Could it have been conditioning or something.

I wonder the same thing about Hirssig.  But, here's the deal.  Coach T is going for win number 400 tonight so who am I to question his sub patterns.  The man gets it done.  A great coach who did build this program from the ground up. 

[The Champ]

Relative to stopping Hirsig, EC has been very effective - need to check out the stats.

Last season that was true - not sure why.

As a freshman - she averaged over 9 points per game with 5 rebounds while playing with Kelsey.

Her sophomore year, as a starter, she averaged over 18 PPG with over 10 boards.

Last year was the exception - 4 points in one game and 11 in the other.  The 4 point game she had 10 rebounds and the 11 point game only 5.

In the only meeting this year, 21 points and 7 boards.

[badgerwarhawk]

FWIW I thought it would be interesting to apply the NBA's efficency measure for the year to date stats for Hirrsig and Messick to see if it would shed any light on our discussion.  Each player has played 18 games.

Hirrsig:  163 (reb) + 19 (assists) + 5 (blocks) + 31 (steals) + 391 (points) = 609
..............67 (missed shots) + 60 (missed free throws) + 57 (turnovers)    = 184
Rating: ... +425

Messick:  161 (reb) + 45 (assists) + 13 (blocks) + 21 (steals) + 326 (points) = 566
............... 95 (missed shots) + 26 (missed free throws) + 62 (turnovers)       = 183
Rating: ... +383


Obviously both are very solid ratings with Hirrsig holding the slight edge. 

   

[The Champ]

Interesting info BW...

A couple things I noticed in the numbers - Julia has considerably more missed FT's and Hannah has considerably more missed FG's.

Went back and looked at the attempts and discovered that the FG attempts were real close 218 to 213, but the FT attempts weren't close at all - 159 for Hirssig and only 106 for Messick.

I guess the NBA doesn't consider shooting percentage in their equation.

[Wydown Blvd.]

I guess the NBA doesn't consider shooting percentage in their equation.

It does...through the missed FGs and missed FTs being subtracted from the top number (which includes points).

[badgerwarhawk]

One thing it doesn't take into account is minutes played and there is a significant difference between these two.  Messick has played a total of 586 minutes (32.6/game) and Hirrsig has only played 391 minutes (21.3/game).

I just thought it would be interesting to see how the two stacked up against each other.  But I don't necessarily think it resolves the who is better discussion.  It just provides an additional way to compare them.   Personally I wouldn't mind having either or both playing for the WARHAWKS and both are players that you have to game plan for. 

[closetothechest]

One thing it doesn't take into account is minutes played and there is a significant difference between these two.  Messick has played a total of 586 minutes (32.6/game) and Hirrsig has only played 391 minutes (21.3/game).

I just thought it would be interesting to see how the two stacked up against each other.  But I don't necessarily think it resolves the who is better discussion.  It just provides an additional way to compare them.  Personally I wouldn't mind having either or both playing for the WARHAWKS and both are players that you have to game plan for. 

Thank Goodness they're not! haha