WBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[bulk19]

Champ -

You have not proven me wrong with facts yet; nor have I written anything here that was wrong, sir. I challenge you to show me, and the others here, for the record, where I have been wrong. There are two sides to this argument. I have looked at the numbers, sir. You spin them one way, and I spin them my way...

You put conditions on your arguments to make them favor your school; I, too, put stipulations on my argument. I chose not to respond to your "let's-look-at-the-teams-when-the-coaches-had-an-entire-squad-recruited-by-himself/herself" argument, bypassing the first four years, because both coaches had to deal with the hands they were dealt.

But since you had to toss out another bone -

In EC's case, we had a great team coming back when TE started coaching; in Stout's, well, not so good. You can't have it both ways, in discounting the teams UWEC had, holding it against our coach's winning percentage while in the same time not factoring them into your coach's record, thereby boosting your coach up. Unless I'm mistaken, both coaches still had to coach those four seasons, and teach, and recruit. Doesn't matter who the players were. The Stout Blue Devils were Mark Thomas's team the minute he stepped on campus; the Blugolds became Coach Englund's team when she arrived here.

And in TE's case, I don't think, as a rookie coach that first year, when the team went to the 23-6 and to NCAA tournament, it was just a matter first-time collegiate coach just winding up players and sending them in. I think there was a bit of coaching involved...

You can come down off your lofty high horse now, oh great debater...
Oh, who is the losingest coach in WIAC history? 

[Z71Warhawk]

On a lighter note...... Go lady Warhawks and rep the WIAC in fine fashion on Friday Night in Holland.

[The Champ]

bulk

You really are a stitch...

You tell us that it's harder to maintain a winning history than it is to create one.

Lisa Stone created a winning tradition.  She led UWEC to 11 consecutive winning seasons in the conference.  Tonya hasn't done that - she has 2 non winning conference seasons in 8 years.

Lisa only finished worse than 2nd in the conference 1 time.  Tonya's had 5 seasons (out of 8 seasons) that she's finished worse than 2nd.

Lisa had 9 consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances.  Tonya's never had consecutive NCAA Tourney appearances.

So what has Tonya maintained?  Not the winning tradition that she inherited.

Mark inherited a losing tradition.  He built a winner. 

Stout hasn't had a non winning conference season since the 1989/1990 season.  Stout hasn't finished lower than fourth in the WIAC since the 1994/1995 season.  Mark has had 3 consective NCAA appearance twice (1992 - 1994 and 2004 - 2007)), 2 consecutive once (1996 and 1997).

Tonya's taken what she inherited and made it worse.  Mark took what he inherited (a perenial loser) and has made it one of the premier programs in the WIAC for the longer than Tonya's been in the conference.

Oh, who is the losingest coach in WIAC history?

bulk, if you want to debate, you're going to have to learn to get your FACTS straight before you post.   I know that you THOUGHT the answer was Mark Thomas.  But the actual all time record holder for that is from none other than UWEC.

Ever hear of Sandy Schumacher?  Her record in 17 seasons:  102 wins against 177 losses for a .366 winning percentage.  Now Sandy never led UWEC to a conference championship or an NCAA appearance.  So despite coaching 93 fewer games (279) than Mark has won (372), she has more losses.

There may come a day when Mark exceeds the record that Sandy set, but I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would agree that the number of wins accumulated during the time that it will take Coach T to break that record will make that a rather meaningless piece of trivia. 

Although it may make certain frustrated UWEC fans feel better...

[The Champ]

BTW...

Can anymore UWEC fans give me some negative karma???

Hilarious when they can't win the discussion with facts, they resort to anonymous negative karma givers....

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WOW, this board is hopping more so now, with only one team left, than it was when all nine teams were playing 

I guess that I will throw my 2-cents in on the discussion.

And in TE's case, I don't think, as a rookie coach that first year, when the team went to the 23-6 and to NCAA tournament, it was just a matter first-time collegiate coach just winding up players and sending them in. I think there was a bit of coaching involved...

Also, to add to this point, TE didn't inherit all of Lisa Stone's recruits.  There were some very good ballplayers that left during the transition:

Jayme Anderson- All American, D3hoops All Decade Team, transfered to D1 Drake to follow Stone

Kay Mikolajzcak- Was at EC for 1 year before transfering to UWO.  Can't remember if she was All-American.  But was definitely one of the top players in the conference for a couple years. 

Nya Geschke- transfered to UWW during the transition year.  She was one of UWW's top players all four years.

Just pointing out that it wasn't all gravy for TE when she came to EC.  Yes, she did still have some good players (that Stone recruited) on the team, but it wasn't as many as it could have been.  She did have to deal with some key players not being on the team


On the debate about taking over winning vs. losing programs.   This could be looked at a different way too.  I'll put this to the extremes a bit to hopefully get my point across.  Team A has had 3 consecutive 25-0 seasons when the teams coach decides to leave.  Team B has had 3 consecutive 0-25 seasons when the teams coach decides to leave.   Team A's new coach can't do any better winning percentage wise.  On the other hand, new coach B can't do any worse.  What I am trying to get at here is that coach A has no room for improvement (winning percentage wise), the team has reached the ceiling so to speak.  On the other side, coach B has so much room for improvement.  Does it mean coach B is a better coach than coach A if in 3 years down the road the teams records are: Team A 23-2, Team B 15-10?  To me, these are completely different situations that are very difficult to compare.  Now, if coach A had a 3-year record of 10-65 after taking over the program compared to coach B who had a 3-year record of 65-10 after taking over the program, then yes, you could most likely say that coach B is a better coach. 


Well, as much as I like debating about these topics, no more from me on this until UWW's season is over.  I do kind of feel for the UWW posters that this coaching debate has overshadowed "final 4" week for the warhawks.

[buf]

I think UWW's toughest game will be its first against Howard Payne.  If they can get by them, UWW should have a pretty good chance to win it all.

[The Champ]

On the debate about taking over winning vs. losing programs.   This could be looked at a different way too.  I'll put this to the extremes a bit to hopefully get my point across.  Team A has had 3 consecutive 25-0 seasons when the teams coach decides to leave.  Team B has had 3 consecutive 0-25 seasons when the teams coach decides to leave.   Team A's new coach can't do any better winning percentage wise.  On the other hand, new coach B can't do any worse.  What I am trying to get at here is that coach A has no room for improvement (winning percentage wise), the team has reached the ceiling so to speak.  On the other side, coach B has so much room for improvement.  Does it mean coach B is a better coach than coach A if in 3 years down the road the teams records are: Team A 23-2, Team B 15-10?  To me, these are completely different situations that are very difficult to compare.  Now, if coach A had a 3-year record of 10-65 after taking over the program compared to coach B who had a 3-year record of 65-10 after taking over the program, then yes, you could most likely say that coach B is a better coach. 

Some reasonable points, and if your copartner had tried to make this point instead of dodging the question, this wouldn't have taken so long...

The main difference is the fact that bulk claimed that TE maintained the record.  Fact is, she has the only 2 non winning conference season records for UWEC over the last 20 years.

25% of TE's UWEC career she has failed to have winning records in the conference. 

Mark took over a team that hadn't won a single conference game in over 3 years.  He's had three non winning seasons - his first three.  Since 1990 - it's nothing but winning records.

Well, as much as I like debating about these topics, no more from me on this until UWW's season is over.  I do kind of feel for the UWW posters that this coaching debate has overshadowed "final 4" week for the warhawks.

Funny thing is, it was BW (and a few others) that requested we continue discussing the topic after I tried to get bulk to take it offline (remember - I asked him twice)....

Good luck Warhawks, bring home the trophy!!!

[Z71Warhawk]

I think UWW's toughest game will be its first against Howard Payne.  If they can get by them, UWW should have a pretty good chance to win it all.

How do Howard Payne and UW-W match up Bud? Who does the match up favor?

[badgerwarhawk]

HP has size with starters over 6 ft including a 6'2" player and their leading scorer is a 5'8" junior guard.   They score alot of points, roughly 76/game, and defensively allow less than 50 points/game.   We score alot too with almost an 83 point/game average but give upa few more points as well, about 62/game.   

Of course the intangible factor is the level of competition.  I know nothing about their's  but if you're 31-0 you're tested and obviously doing things well.   Plus we know that Hope was a good team and holding them to just 47 points says something.

I think our schedule has prepared us well.  We've beaten good teams in Simpson and DePauw and really seem to be peaking since the loss to Point in the conference tournament.   Hopefully we can continue along those lines but it isn't going to be easy.  We tend to struggle some when we can't get the ball into the low post and their size could make that difficult.   Fortunately we've got some pretty good shooting guards and if they're hitting shots that should help open up the post. 

I am concerned about our total lack of experience at this sort of thing. 

[Just Bill]

I am concerned about our total lack of experience at this sort of thing. 

This is the part that worries me about UWW too.  HPU's been in four NCAA Tournaments.  Still it will come down to talent and execution first.

Come to think of it, I worried about the same thing for UWSP in 2002 and that worked out pretty well!

[bulk19]

Oh, who is the losingest coach in WIAC history?

bulk, if you want to debate, you're going to have to learn to get your FACTS straight before you post.   I know that you THOUGHT the answer was Mark Thomas.  But the actual all time record holder for that is from none other than UWEC.

Ever hear of Sandy Schumacher?  Her record in 17 seasons:  102 wins against 177 losses for a .366 winning percentage.  Now Sandy never led UWEC to a conference championship or an NCAA appearance.  So despite coaching 93 fewer games (279) than Mark has won (372), she has more losses.

There may come a day when Mark exceeds the record that Sandy set, but I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would agree that the number of wins accumulated during the time that it will take Coach T to break that record will make that a rather meaningless piece of trivia. 

Although it may make certain frustrated UWEC fans feel better...

Hey Champ. Check your facts! With a career record of 372 wins and 190 losses, Thomas is the losingest coach as well... Unless my coveted UWEC diploma has failed me in the math department, 177 losses posted by Shumacher is still 13 less than Coach Thomas's 190???

As for being a frustrated fan, or, as alluded to earlier, Blugold fans having sour grapes? Well, not me. I will stack our team's recored and success over the last 21 years up against any other school, including Stout...

As far as most recent times? I'll take an expected conference championship this year - you will, no doubt, point out it was a tie. Check how many Stout has tied for; you don't mention that number. do you? - along with the individual accomplishments by a few of our players. I'm also pleased the team made it into round two of the NCAA tournament, and also swept Stout this year, too.

I've already said Coach Carollo deserved COY this year, so no frustration on that, either.

As far as your attempts to muzzle me? When you make an initial post, and I make an initial response, and you post again, I don't think it's time to take something off line, as per your request. It's appropriate I have a chance to respond for others to see in this public forum. Sorry pal, but I get equal time... It had been nearly a week since I posted, Thursday, the 13th,  until you had to specifically mention me in a post on yesterday, the 19th. Sorry, but anything directed at me on here will get a response...

As far as the others here you think this distracts from the Whitewater tournament run? No one but you has suggested to me to end this debate. If they don't want to listen, they don't have to read. And I certainly am not preventing them from posting; this is a 24-hour forum, and I have not chopped off anyone's fingers... Chime in Hawks... They dominate the football board; where have they been this week as their team heads to the Final Four???

I believe Pat Coleman, in a response to a previous post on attendance, said it best: "Why don't you tell us a little more about the team instead, then?"

   

[Just Bill]

Believe me, I stopped reading (or at least stopped caring about) this stupidity two pages ago.  But I also don't believe in telling people what they can and can't discuss, so if this little schtick makes you both feel better about yourself then, by all means, carry on.

[The Champ]

Hey Champ. Check your facts! With a career record of 372 wins and 190 losses, Thomas is the losingest coach as well... Unless my coveted UWEC diploma has failed me in the math department, 177 losses posted by Shumacher is still 13 less than Coach Thomas's 190???

Mea Culpa...

I was wrong.  I incorrectly came up with my number.  One of the things you will learn about me, is that when I'm wrong, I will admit it.

As for being a frustrated fan, or, as alluded to earlier, Blugold fans having sour grapes? Well, not me. I will stack our team's recored and success over the last 21 years up against any other school, including Stout...

j

Lisa Stone's record isn't in question here.  Compare TE to Lisa Stone if you want to, but you won't like how that portrays TE, because she doesn't compare well.

The comparison to make is TE vs. MT over the EXACT same time period.  How many non winning seasons do they each have?  How many 5th or 6th place finishes do they each have?  How many WIAC Championships do they each have?  How many WIAC Tournament Championships do they each have?

Your frustration is demonstrated by your continued desparate attempts to keep adding Lisa Stone's record into the mix...

As far as most recent times? I'll take an expected conference championship this year - you will, no doubt, point out it was a tie. Check how many Stout has tied for; you don't mention that number. do you? - along with the individual accomplishments by a few of our players. I'm also pleased the team made it into round two of the NCAA tournament, and also swept Stout this year, too.

When we tied for the conference championship, we became the number one seed based on a competive tiebreaker - not a coin flip...  

How many times has the number one seed in the WIAC failed to win the conference tournament?  I'm glad you're glad you swept Stout this year.  Put that right next to the WIAC Tournament trophy (oops....  you didn't win that did you?).

Sorry, but anything directed at me on here will get a response...

Problem is, you failed to respond to the questions...

No one but you has suggested to me to end this debate.

As I previously posted, a year ago some folks requested that we take a similar debate offline.  I was just trying to accomodate what I thought the board wanted this time.

Have a wonderful day.

[Z71Warhawk]

Go Lady Warhawks!!!!!!!!!!

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Messiah defeated Oglethorpe in the first semifinal game