FB: Region 3 fan poll

[Ralph Turner]

The ASC contenders dominate the Pres AC.  I often wonder how many ASC schools are better than the top of the Pres AC.  The 69-7 UMHB drubbing of Thomas More just continued this historic trend.

Not that it matters much on who would've won --- Thomas More wasn't going to beat UMHB, but they had some issues with some key personel that day in Belton.  Their starting QB was out after a couple series and they had to play a true freshman backup.  Like I said, it wouldn't have changed who won... but losing him and the RB that day changed the complexion of the team and affected morale.  I would love to see how they stack up with the ASC with a full squad... outside of UMHB (which I still think is a measuring stick for the Saints)

Thanks Saints Fan.

This season, I think that the top tier of the ASC may be 5 strong.

[Ralph Turner]

I have 4 ballots and am waiting on the 5th.  Thanks to all who contribute.

I will put up the poll tonight...waiting on #5.  Thanks.

[Ralph Turner]

One of my balloteers could not contribute this week.  I created the 5th ballot from the average of the three indexes: Massey Ratings, Bornpowerindex, LazIndex.

1)   UMHB   (5)     50      1,1,1,1,1
2)   TMC              39      2,2,2,2,8
3)   Wesley           36     2,3,4,4,6
4)   H-SC              31     3,3,5,5,8
5)   HSU                28    3,4,6,7,7
6)   JHU                 27    4,5,6,6,7
7)   Salisbury          18    4,5,8,9,x
8)   LaCollege          17    3,5,10,10,10
9)   McMurry           9      7,7,10,x,x,
10T) Wash & Jeff       5     6,x,x,x,x
10T) Centre              5     8,9,x,x,x

RV)  Trinity              4      9,9,x,x,x
RV)  MissCollege       4      8,10,x,x,x
RV)  Wash & Lee       2     9,x,x,x,x 

[wesleydad]

funny that salisbury is 2 -3 in the east pool.  i hope they run the table in the e8.  will show that the south is not the weak sister in this thing, but the east is.  they have avoided playing wesley for years now.  i know i will hear about the kean game this year and the montclaire game a couple of years ago, but if they played 10 times wesley would win the other 9.

[Ralph Turner]

My fifth pollster sent me his ballot today.  I have re-tallied the votes, and dropped the average of the the indexes.

Week #3 South Region Fan Poll

1)   UMHB   (5)     50   1,1,1,1,1
2)   Thomas More  45   2,2,2,2,2
3)   Wesley          35   3,3,4,4,6
4)   H-SC             32   3,3,4,5,8
5)   JHU               25   4,5,6,7,8
6T) HSU               21   3,6,7,7,x
6T) Salisbury        21    4,5,6,8,x
8T) LaCollege         9    5,10,10,10,x
8T)  W&J               9    6,7,x,x,x
10)  B'water           6    5,x,x,x,x

RV) Centre           5    8,9,x,x,x
RV) McMurry         5    7,10,x,x,x
RV) Trinity            5   9,9,10,x,x
RV) Miss Coll          3   8,x,x,x,x
RV) B-SC               2   9,x,x,x,x
EV)  W&L               2   9,x,x,x,x

[Ralph Turner]

Week #3 South Region Fan Poll 

1)   UMHB   (5)     50   1,1,1,1,1    UMHB 35, at HSU 17
2)   Thomas More  45   2,2,2,2,2   TMC 35, at W&J  32
3)   Wesley          35   3,3,4,4,6     Wesley 72, at Husson 0
4)   H-SC             32   3,3,4,5,8     at Huntingdon 34, HSC 27
5)   JHU               25   4,5,6,7,8      at JHU 27, Muhlenberg 17
6T) HSU               21   3,6,7,7,x     UMHB 35, at HSU 17
6T) Salisbury        21    4,5,6,8,x     Open date
8T) LaCollege         9    5,10,10,10,x  at LaCollege 52, Miss College 17
8T)  W&J               9    6,7,x,x,x       TMC 35, at W&J  32   
10)  B'water           6    5,x,x,x,x      at   Ferrum 37, B'water 6

RV) Centre           5    8,9,x,x,x      at Centre 45, Austin 0
RV) McMurry         5    7,10,x,x,x    McM 63, ETBU 17
RV) Trinity            5   9,9,10,x,x     Trinity 10, at Millsaps 3
RV) Miss Coll          3   8,x,x,x,x      at LaCollege 52, Miss College 17
RV) B-SC               2   9,x,x,x,x    BSC 28, at Sewanee 21
EV)  W&L               2   9,x,x,x,x   at W&L 49, Alma 42

[Ralph Turner]

Still awaiting one more ballot...

[ExTartanPlayer]

The ASC contenders dominate the Pres AC.  I often wonder how many ASC schools are better than the top of the Pres AC.  The 69-7 UMHB drubbing of Thomas More just continued this historic trend.

Always hard to figure this kind of stuff out.  Seems like a lot of postseason games can get out of hand, opening up this question ("Man, we KILLED that team, they wouldn't have finished in the top half of our league!").  It's really tough to figure out.

Over the past few years, UMHB has consistently owned the PAC champ - 2004 + 2008 blowout wins over W&J, 2010 blowout win over TMC - but I'm not sure that totally converts to the "the top half of our league is better than that league's champ!" status...in several of those years, UMHB demolished just about everyone in the ASC as well (though they did have a number of close games in 2010).

In 2005-06, UWW drubbed Wesley 58-6 and 44-7 in the national semifinals (I'd also point out that the same 2005 Wesley team beat UMHB earlier in the playoffs).  No doubt there were some WIAC fans that came away scratching their heads, wondering if the WIAC's top four or five teams could have beaten Wesley - and, by extension, UMHB.

Tangentially, the OAC had a phenomenal stretch from 1999-2006; eache the OAC #2 made the playoffs & won every game until they were eventually eliminated by Mt. Union (1999 Ohio Northern, 2000 Ohio Northern, 2002 John Carroll, 2005 Capital, 2006 Capital).  From 1999-2006, based on this info, it seemed very reasonable to suspect that the OAC's entire top half might be worthy of a top 25 ranking.  I always though this was a phenomenally impressive stretch...I remember thinking in 2006 that Capital was probably the second-best team in the nation, but looking back, I'm not completely sure.

[HSC85]

One reason playoff games get out of hand is the roster limit that are present in the playoffs.  Teams have only been limit to dressing 52 players for the games.  This takes away the playing of "younger" or 3rd or 4th string players if the score is one sided.  Another reason is there are different levels of strength among the teams in the playoffs.  Just one observation. 

[jknezek]

I don't find it overly surprising. To be honest, I'm not at all surprised that some conferences would have 4 or 5 or even 9 teams better than the champion of a different conference. D3 conferences aren't assembled to create balanced talent across the universe. Generally they are organized either to limit travel expenses or to put like-minded institutions together. In the case of a conference of like-minded institutions, it doesn't surprise me at all that you could end up with a weak conference top to bottom (for example the USAS this year) whereas a conference like the WIAC, which is generally made up geographically of large, state supported institutions, could all field average to outstanding D3 programs. Priorities are substantially different for athletic programs and there is no levelling factor like scholarships to even things out.

That's not a complaint about D3, it's just a fact. I love that we have a season-ending tournament, but it doesn't surprise me at all to see W&L get steamrolled by Thomas More get steamrolled by UMHB, get beaten by Wesley, get pounded by Mount, who then lost to UWW. Or however it went last year. I'm pretty sure UWW would have put up at least 70 or 80 on the Generals, and probably one of the weakest teams in the WIAC would have given them a pretty good game.

However, I get annoyed at people who take these facts and say having conference winners in the tournament only wastes a spot on a weak conference winner when it could have gone to a 2nd or 3rd place team in a strong conference. This argument ignores the fact that you simply can't know ahead of time that one conference winner is weak and another strong. You can believe, assume, project, and generally have a pretty good idea that W&L would get steamrolled by UWW, but you can't know until they get on the field. The 2nd or 3rd or 4th place WIAC team, however, you already know is weaker than the champion. And on the off chance that maybe they aren't (I'd argue H-SC was generally a better team than W&L last year for example), well... that's what those couple Pool B bids are for.

We have the best of all worlds. It really doesn't matter if you have unbalanced conferences because every team at the beginning of the season (except the NESCAC programs and possibly some of the independants) can win the title without resorting to a computer program and some fancy strong/weak algorithms or a bunch of people sitting around in a boardroom arguing. That's exactly how I'd like it to stay, even if it brings up a bunch of less-than-competitive first and second round playoff games.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Completely agree, jknezek.

I particularly echo this sentiment:

"...I get annoyed at people who take these facts and say having conference winners in the tournament only wastes a spot on a weak conference winner when it could have gone to a 2nd or 3rd place team in a strong conference...the 2nd or 3rd or 4th place WIAC team, however, you already know is weaker than the champion..."

I also agree with your assessment of D3 conferences, and the factors that lead to variance in conference strength.  I've talked some with my father about the strength of the WIAC, and he pointed out to me that the WIAC schools are very similar to the schools in Pennsylvania's PSAC (which is a Division II conference of 12 large, state-supported schools), much moreso than any Division III conference in the Northeast region.

*Note: I'm not saying that the WIAC should move up to Division II

[jknezek]

I also agree with your assessment of D3 conferences, and the factors that lead to variance in conference strength.  I've talked some with my father about the strength of the WIAC, and he pointed out to me that the WIAC schools are very similar to the schools in Pennsylvania's PSAC (which is a Division II conference of 12 large, state-supported schools), much moreso than any Division III conference in the Northeast region.

*Note: I'm not saying that the WIAC should move up to Division II

ExTartan would that make you a Carnegie Mellon grad? My sister is class of '98 and I used to love going to visit. Love that on-campus field surrounded by dorms. Such a neat complex and so very different from W&L's natural bowl. Always wished W&L would make a greater effort to schedule CMU and Johns Hopkins (although the last time we did Johns Hopkins we got shredded 3 of 4 games I believe).

As for the WIAC, there is no doubt those schools could play at a different level, but the same could be said about some of the NJAC schools and countless others. I know sometimes people look at the WIAC and say it isn't fair, but as I said above, there is nothing inherently fair about the D3 universe except the broad D3 rules. Besides, just having a huge school is no guarantee of success and I certainly admire the coaches and recruiting staff at both the purple powers. Unbelievable that they have both been so good for so long. I also love that they are completely different types of schools. Shows that both large state schools and small private institutions can compete on D3's strange playing field.

[ExTartanPlayer]

ExTartan would that make you a Carnegie Mellon grad? My sister is class of '98 and I used to love going to visit. Love that on-campus field surrounded by dorms. Such a neat complex and so very different from W&L's natural bowl. Always wished W&L would make a greater effort to schedule CMU and Johns Hopkins (although the last time we did Johns Hopkins we got shredded 3 of 4 games I believe).

Yes, offensive tackle, 2004-07.  We did play W&L my senior year (2007), but I think that was a one-year thing, don't believe it was even did a home & home.

I still live in Pittsburgh, actually, I'm in graduate school at Pitt and occasionally I stroll over to catch a game at Gesling.  I'd be more motivated to do that if the team was in contention for something, but things have been a little disappointing of late (4-6 last year).

One neat thing about playing for CMU is that being in such a small conference, we got to play a lot of different teams.  During my time there we played (in addition to the conference games) at places like Colorado College, Randolph-Macon, Rochester, Hobart...lots of places that I'd never have seen if I hadn't played for CMU.  It would have been nice to play in an AQ conference, but by the same token it was also really cool to play so many different places during my career, and we still did get a Pool B berth with an undefeated season so the lack of AQ access wasn't a real big deal.

It would be neat to see that sort of crossover for all teams, but in Division III that's just not practical - it's just too expensive to make multiple long trips in a season.

I agree w/your comments about the WIAC - I don't think they should have to play at a higher level to make it "fair" - I just remember the big "ah-ha!" moment when my dad pointed out that the WIAC schools were very similar to Pennsylvania's PSAC schools.

[Ralph Turner]

Cocerninig the Texas teams vs the Pres AC, the 2002 Trinity Stagg Bowl team only beat UMHB 48-38 in the first round.  They proceeded to beat W&J 45-10 in the second round.

Wesley's style of play is reminscent of the ASC style.  I think that the Pres AC just doesn't match well with the ASC and a decade old Trinity.

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5306.0

[jknezek]

Yes the UAA is an interesting grouping. Lot of travel though. I was at W&L from '96-'00 and we were either 5-5 or 4-6 every year. Of course, in '06 we won the ODAC and played Wilkes in the playoffs which was fantastic. It was the first time we ever made the playoffs and it was the only time we ever played Wilkes. My parents are Wilkes alums, so I flew up from FL and went to the game with my dad. We got shelled, but that was just an absolute blast. There is no reason those teams would have ever played except they just happened to get matched up in the playoffs that year (1 vs 8 in the south I believe). Amazing odds. You have to love those kinds of things in D3.

And yes, we did play at CMU in '07 and lost 39-21. I remember wanting to go with my sister but being unable to fly up. We also played in '59 and '60, but that goes back a little far for my taste. Hopefully we will schedule CMU again, but with Shenandoah joining the ODAC and with Sewanee as a traditional opponent, we really only have 2 open dates a year. One usually goes to a Centennial team. That leaves one slot used to belong to Centre (50 straight years) and who we went back to this year after a 5 year break.